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Old 09-14-2016, 01:46 PM   #46
enorbet
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 273 View Post
If there wasn't the advertising, would you be suspicious? I have seen TV in a Soviet Country and nobody in their right mind would believe it nowadays.
Really, with two supposed parties that's already so far from any kind of democracy.
While I agree that great sums of money get spent on advertising to sway the vote, that's not what I was writing about, although it certainly counts as a problem. I'm writing about how entire blocks of voters can be stopped from voting through local and state level voter registration discrimination as well as the ago old "dead vote" and all the less than ethical means to maximize what your party gets and minimize what the other party gets.

This has little to do with how much or how little difference there is between parties. The facts are there is some and over time it does matter.

Voting, especially in the primaries, is still the easiest powerful means of change we have while remaining peaceful. Passive resistance can wield some power but primarily the power it wields is swaying the vote. Without the vote it is generally an exercise in futility. The only remaining alternative is revolution and that is a huge step down a very risky path in any modern society.
 
Old 09-14-2016, 02:40 PM   #47
273
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet View Post
This has little to do with how much or how little difference there is between parties. The facts are there is some and over time it does matter.
Of course there's a difference. The people behind them aren't going to present two identical parties (or three in the UK) are they?
What is gained by being under one set of their rules is quickly lost under the other.
"I know, I prefer to vote for Cerberus's second head this year!!!".
 
Old 09-15-2016, 10:17 AM   #48
enorbet
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 273 View Post
Of course there's a difference. The people behind them aren't going to present two identical parties (or three in the UK) are they?
What is gained by being under one set of their rules is quickly lost under the other.
"I know, I prefer to vote for Cerberus's second head this year!!!".
"Meet the new boss, same as the old boss", eh? So does this mean you don't vote? ... and if you don't, aside from noting the injustice of it all, what are the alternatives you think work better?
 
Old 09-15-2016, 10:28 AM   #49
rokytnji
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I find certain words selective when the word and charges of "traitor" are applied to people like
Edward Snowden and Chelsea Manning but Politicians seem to be immune to such labels and legal
charges.

Most USA voters seem selective also on what they consider a traitor and give a bye to their
preferred politician in office.

I bet if politicians were not immune. The field of running for office may shrink a bit.

Oh well. One can only dream on. Capitalism is a great system. When you have some Capital.
 
Old 09-15-2016, 12:26 PM   #50
ondoho
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the term traitor belongs to the military.
in a country that is not at war it doesn't make sense.
 
Old 09-15-2016, 01:10 PM   #51
273
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet View Post
"Meet the new boss, same as the old boss", eh? So does this mean you don't vote? ... and if you don't, aside from noting the injustice of it all, what are the alternatives you think work better?
I don't vote(as an aside, in the UK, we have 3 parties we're supposed to vote for and a few which can, actually, have votes cast but make no difference to any government or the choices it makes).
I have no proper solution but I would hope that people do not vote or specifically, in some way, ruin their vote. If the majority do not vote the kleptocracy will, at least, be shown for what it is. In voting people are giving credence to the system as they do in North Korea.
So, how would you have a North Korean vote, if they could even try to express an opinion?
 
Old 09-15-2016, 01:29 PM   #52
rokytnji
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ondoho View Post
the term traitor belongs to the military.
in a country that is not at war it doesn't make sense.
I think you are mistaken abit. The USA is at war. Last time I checked. One does not need to be in the military to be called a traitor either.

Quote:
Whoever, owing allegiance to the United States, levies war against them or adheres to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort within the United States or elsewhere, is guilty of treason and shall suffer death, or shall be imprisoned not less than five years and fined under this title but not less than $10,000; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States.
Owing allegiance

Quote:
The American patriotic vow, which is often recited at formal government ceremonies, including Independence Day ceremonies for new citizens: “I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.”
Schoolkids recite that. For the ones outside of the USA not familiar with our ways.
 
Old 09-15-2016, 11:10 PM   #53
AnanthaP
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Quote:
...levies war against them
I take the quote doesn't mean mean more taxes when it says levies war because that's how governments fund wars.

OK

Last edited by AnanthaP; 09-16-2016 at 07:31 AM.
 
Old 09-15-2016, 11:36 PM   #54
enorbet
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 273 View Post
I don't vote(as an aside, in the UK, we have 3 parties we're supposed to vote for and a few which can, actually, have votes cast but make no difference to any government or the choices it makes).
I have no proper solution but I would hope that people do not vote or specifically, in some way, ruin their vote. If the majority do not vote the kleptocracy will, at least, be shown for what it is. In voting people are giving credence to the system as they do in North Korea.
So, how would you have a North Korean vote, if they could even try to express an opinion?
This is an extremely important point that gets to the heart of the issue. It isn't actually a free voting process when those in power can jail or kill someone who doesn't vote exactly as told by those in power. This condition only occurs when people don't have or abandon the only voice they have and allow government to use force to control every aspect of the governed.

Once that happens the only means for change is counter force, usually violence, which is made risky and unlikely by the imbalance of power. The only other avenue for dissent is in revealing secrets which are a necessary ingredient to such imbalance of power. Whatever gains in security there may be in having any part of government answerable to no one, comes at too high a cost. In that situation the cure is worse than the disease. It is not achieved overnight usually so while you still have an actual free vote, voting may be "giving credence to the system" but as long as that vote isn't enforced, that system can be changed peacefully and regardless of how corrupt or unethical/unjust it may be it seems wise to consider what it will change into if one does not vote.

IMHO, The Prince and Mein Kampf should be required reading of any and all serious classes on "civics" or politics. Additionally --- Joseph Goebbels on Propaganda --- probably should be on that list as well. Know what you risk and how that can be controlled.
 
Old 09-16-2016, 02:07 AM   #55
ondoho
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rokytnji View Post
I think you are mistaken abit. The USA is at war. Last time I checked. One does not need to be in the military to be called a traitor either.

Owing allegiance

Schoolkids recite that. For the ones outside of the USA not familiar with our ways.
all this assumes (silently or outspoken) that the country has to be protected from something/someone. a conflict of sorts.
maybe that's what's wrong with that country: that schoolkids are taught that.
 
Old 09-16-2016, 05:47 AM   #56
wpeckham
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ondoho View Post
all this assumes (silently or outspoken) that the country has to be protected from something/someone. a conflict of sorts.
maybe that's what's wrong with that country: that schoolkids are taught that.
Perhaps your point is valid, but our country DOES have things it must be protected from. The United States has been continuously at war for all of my lifetime and yours. The war in Korea never ended, just paused. There has never been a resolution.
That aside, it is difficult and unreasonable to present a valid case of treason against someone who negotiates and deals with leaders of other nations on that basis. It is the JOB of statesmen (and women) to do so and you cannot accuse them of crimes solely because you do not agree with them or the result of their dealing.
Treason is a term overused and poorly defined.

Although I could wish it were always done elegantly, disclosing unethical, dishonest, and illegal behavior in government has always been of great value (risky at times) and NOT considered treason. The U.S. Constitutional protections for freedom of the press apply to INDIVIDUALS, not just News organizations for good reason! We have congressmen (and others) who would like to forget that, but it is central to who we are as a country. Revealing information that should be considered confidential or classified may be a crime, but the act of publishing valid information not obtained illegally cannot be a crime.

These distinctions matter, and not only to lawyers.
In war, law, politics, and life we need to keep high standards and make reasonable decisions. Just because something makes us angry does not make it illegal. Just because we like someone does not make them correct. Disbelieving the laws of gravity will not protect you from falling. Dealing from a basis of what we WANT rather than facts (what is REAL), leads to unreasonable decisions and horrendous failure.

Last edited by wpeckham; 09-16-2016 at 05:48 AM.
 
Old 09-16-2016, 07:19 AM   #57
rokytnji
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Errrr,

Quote:
On Oct. 28, 2005, a grand jury handed down a five-count indictment in the 22-month-long investigation into whether White House officials illegally leaked the identity of Valerie Plame, a covert CIA agent, in retaliation for public criticisms made by her husband, Joseph Wilson IV, about the Bush administration's case for invading Iraq.
Quote:
Vice President Cheney's top aide, Libby was found guilty of lying about his role in the leak of Plame's identity, two counts of perjury, one count of making false statements and one count of obstruction of justice on March 6, 2007. He was acquitted of a single count of lying to the FBI. On July 2, President Bush commuted Libby's sentence, after a federal appeals court refused to let Libby remain free while he appealed his conviction for lying to federal investigators.
Errrrr.

Quote:
you cannot accuse them of crimes solely because you do not agree with them or the result of their dealing.
Never mind.
 
Old 09-16-2016, 11:17 AM   #58
onebuck
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Member response

Hi,
Quote:
Originally Posted by ondoho View Post
the term traitor belongs to the military.
in a country that is not at war it doesn't make sense.
What part of this definition do you not understand;
Quote:
From http://www.dictionary.com/browse/traitor?s=t


See more synonyms on Thesaurus.com
noun
1. a person who betrays another, a cause, or any trust.

2. a person who commits treason by betraying his or her country.
Not confined to the military! One can betray the country and not be in the military. One can betray another person and not be in the military.

Hope this helps.
 
Old 09-16-2016, 11:35 AM   #59
RadicalDreamer
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Ooo Valerie Plame. Its odd that no heads rolled for treason:
"Nuclear investigation

According to The Sunday Times and its main source Sibel Edmonds, Brewster Jennings & Associates was used by the CIA to investigate an alleged foreign intelligence ring, including Pakistan's ISI, which was attempting to recruit moles to obtain U.S. nuclear secrets. A parallel investigation was being run by the FBI. The American Turkish Council put Brewster and Jennings in contact with a number of Turkish agents involved in the ring, but who claimed to be conducting research in alternative energy sources. The Turkish agents were on the verge of hiring Brewster Jennings as consultants when a senior US State Department official tipped them off, leading them to break off the relationship and warn the ISI and others of the front company. The State Department official denies this.[6] This official was later identified as Marc Grossman, the former Under Secretary of State for Political Affairs from 2001-2005, both under sworn testimony by Edmonds and by other sources.[7][8]"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brewst..._investigation

So when the US sides with Salafi Jihadist in Libya/Syria is that treason? There are prominent Americans like David Petraues who want to ally with Al Qaeda in Syria.

Last edited by RadicalDreamer; 09-16-2016 at 11:40 AM.
 
Old 09-16-2016, 11:59 AM   #60
ondoho
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Quote:
Originally Posted by onebuck View Post
What part of this definition do you not understand;
...
2. a person who commits treason by betraying his or her country.
i think we can agree that we're discussing the second definition here.
identifying with one's country in a prticular way, let's call it patriotism, implies that there's something inside, and something outside, and a borderline - a fortress. it does imply at least passive aggression ("protection").

i like the country i live in, but i do not identify with it in a way that i could betray "it". i could betray people, but not a country. the whole concept implies being in constant conflict with one's neighbours.
which certainly seems to hold true for the US of A.

that militaristic enough?
 
  


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