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Old 01-03-2021, 03:52 PM   #16
v00d00101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kalilinuxlivecd View Post
The government will remain until the next election.
And thats how it is. Unless a general election is called early for some reason or other. British people get to vote on the party to run the country for the five years after that election, on the 2nd of May, 2024.

The life expectancy of this government is until that date, then the people decide who they want to lead us next.

As for whether Boris lasts that long, who knows. I think Covid has put a bit of a stain on the current government and shown up some half assed management issues within the civil service, not to mention an inability to actually make proper and logical choices at the times when they would have mattered. But thats what happens. People are not machines.

I personally have no qualms with Scotland leaving either. But if they leave, they 100% leave. New currency, hard border and we 100% cut them off, ideally by building a canal from east to west, making them into an island, which would allow bridge border crossings that are easier to manage. They seem to think that Europe will welcome them back with open arms, but I don't see that happening. They dont have the resources. I think they will end up as a second or third world country in Europe in a worse state than Greece. But that choice is for them to make and if they vote to leave, we should ensure that it happens in a very final way, that grants their wish fully.
 
Old 01-03-2021, 04:22 PM   #17
ondoho
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Quote:
Originally Posted by business_kid View Post
Posters on LQ who apparently hail from the pro-Brexit parts of the UK, or those from anywhere who express similar loyalties. I invented the term but should have been clearer.
Ah, thanks for the clarification. I completely misunderstood.
 
Old 01-04-2021, 08:22 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by business_kid View Post
Well, the British posters still like it, that's for sure. Maybe when the solids have been hitting the ventilation for a while, there will be a change of mind. But posters will naturally be loath to admit error. That's what keeps politics amusing. It will be interesting to wake this subject up in the future. We get caught in Ireland. We have the only land border with the EU, and we can't police or close it. Neither can the UK. One road in particular crosses the border several times, and the only way you know is that the speed limit changes from km/h to mph.
I think it's important to note that Brexit is a direct result of the Lisbon Treaty 2007. Ireland initially rejected it, as its mode of ratification was via a referendum, then when some concessions were made held another referendum and ratified it. In the UK, the general sense at the time was that Eurocrats wanted to push it through to serve their own ends and critics at the time argued that it took power away from national electorates. But ultimately it's up to member states to decide how they ratify EU treaties.

If the UK had held a similar referendum, you could be sure that it would have been rejected by the public - as the Tory party and majority of the media groups whom support it, were against it, plus the Blair/Brown Labour government at the time was in its twilight years and becoming increasingly unpopular (Brown's Labour administration is often cited as "the most unpopular in history"). It was passed by parliament due to the majority Labour government and Liberal Democrats, etc at the time supporting it - not because of any popular support.

Post Brexit - I am still on the fence about the EU - while I dislike it and view it as undemocratic in its current form, it's undoubtable future governments will abuse Brexit as a means to drive down standards, labour costs, revoke regulations and go for wider privatization - further increasing poverty in the process.

Last edited by cynwulf; 01-04-2021 at 08:30 AM.
 
Old 01-04-2021, 12:15 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by v00d00101 View Post
They seem to think that Europe will welcome them back with open arms, but I don't see that happening.
Spain would object; they'd see accepting Scotland quitting the UK as a prototype for a Catalan succession!
 
Old 01-04-2021, 12:48 PM   #20
boughtonp
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Originally Posted by business_kid View Post
  • How Long will Boris last?
  • Will the Government see out it's term?
I wouldn't expect a competent challenger to lose against the man who both cancelled Christmas and supported going for a drive to test eyesight.

But what are the chances of Boris buggering off and/or the Tories calling a General Election before 2024?

 
Old 01-04-2021, 04:00 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidMcCann View Post
> Wales voted for Brexit, just as we did.
> Northern Ireland? Ireland can have that on a plate as far as I'm concerned, though why anyone would want a place with the Orange Order and Arlene Foster is beyond me.
> Scotland? Propped up with English taxpayers' money, yet they never stop whinging. I wouldn't miss them.
Well the generalizations are not hard to come by, aren't they?

If I were living in Northern Ireland I would not shed a tear leaving the UK for Ireland. The GDP per capita in Ireland is 58% more than it is in the UK and in a united Ireland the current northern part won't be treated as backwater.

And as you know the Scottish are no fools as if there are a lot of English talking like you do it is no wonder that the majority would rather join the EU as a member.

For the UK itself, according to the IMF, UK GDP per capita was 44 288 Int$, so somewhere between France (45 454) and the Czech Republic (40 293). So although I am sorry to see the UK leave, the UK is hardly a "crown jewel" of the EU. And I can't remember the time that the British were not playing the political drag anchor in Brussels.

To me it feels like Brexit is only about sentiment. To separate yourself from the largest trading bloc in the world does not make sense to me. For my/our information, could you please name one specific advantage that Britain gained by Brexit?
 
Old 01-04-2021, 08:21 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ondoho View Post
Is it fair to say that Brexit broke Theresa May's political career? Maybe Boris' will break too. But that still doesn't change a thing. Sorry, guys. Brits.
I think it probably would, though I'd say her own party broke May's career by giving her hardly any support. Fair enough, most of the Tories didn't want Brexit (having taken us into the EU in the first place), but once the decision was made they could have got behind the leader they'd just chosen to do it.

ISTM the Tories' popularity was pretty low at the last election, the only reason they got a majority was because the voters were sick of the "are you sure? y/N" from the other parties and thought the Tories were finally willing to do something (anything) with Brexit. If Labour can pull themselves together in the next four years then my guess is we'll get a red government next.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hermani
To me it feels like Brexit is only about sentiment. To separate yourself from the largest trading bloc in the world does not make sense to me. For my/our information, could you please name one specific advantage that Britain gained by Brexit?
I'll give you two, though how advantageous they are is a matter for debate.

One, it removes the most distant (and therefore least accountable) source of legislation in the UK. The real effects will depend a lot on the state of UK politics and how involved the electorate are anyway. I agree with cynwulf that the Lisbon Treaty was a factor in making it seem more desirable. My impression is that Remainers see the EU as a trading bloc (possibly no longer the largest now we've left), while Leavers see it as a government that wants a finger in every pie.

Two, the removal of the minimum VAT rate. The Tories love VAT so the only difference we're likely to see for now is in the much-publicised "tampon tax". One of the requirements for joining the EEC was that the UK should start charging VAT on certain feminine hygiene products (previously tax-free). This was understandably unpopular among women, especially as the decision was made by (mostly) male officials.
Initially the products were taxed at the full rate of 10 15 17.5 20%, then around 2014 the rate was dropped to 5% and the UK government was told it would eventually be allowed to remove it altogether - but that still hadn't happened by the end of 2020. The absolute difference in the price of those products is pretty small, but presumably so was the revenue raised - and the fact that the UK didn't manage to get that unpopular little tax revoked in all its years in the EU is not a great advert.

Last edited by Pastychomper; 01-04-2021 at 08:25 PM.
 
Old 01-05-2021, 04:43 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boughtonp View Post
I wouldn't expect a competent challenger to lose against the man who both cancelled Christmas and supported going for a drive to test eyesight.

But what are the chances of Boris buggering off and/or the Tories calling a General Election before 2024?
Frankly, I didn't see any, but Tories are fairly quick to ditch a loser. That's why it's interesting to speculate. The hot air from Boris included the words "Britain will prosper mightily whatever the outcome" (on Brexit deal/no deal talks). I imagine those words will come back to haunt him, and I frankly don't see them being right. That's why it's a slow-running spectator sport.

It's a pain in the face for us in Ireland commercially, as we have big markets in the UK, but they can switch to the EU fairly handy. There's a commercial traffic service now running Rosslare - Dunkirk. Not much English traffic there
 
Old 01-05-2021, 04:56 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pastychomper View Post
One of the requirements for joining the EEC was that the UK should start charging VAT on certain feminine hygiene products (previously tax-free).
UK and Ireland both joined the EEC in 1973, but apparently Ireland got to keep it's zero rate on feminine hygiene products whilst the UK didn't. How does that work?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Pastychomper View Post
the UK government was told it would eventually be allowed to remove it altogether - but that still hadn't happened by the end of 2020. The absolute difference in the price of those products is pretty small, but presumably so was the revenue raised - and the fact that the UK didn't manage to get that unpopular little tax revoked in all its years in the EU is not a great advert.
It seems the EU legislation was unanimously changed in March 2016, so what was stopping the UK (and others) from immediately removing VAT at that point?

Apparently the change was part of the March 2016 UK budget, but not due to take effect for two years (until April 2018; why the wait?), at which point the change still hadn't been applied (but again nobody says why?), and then there was more EU VAT legislation proposed in Oct 2018 that for some reason needed 3 years and 3 months to apply?

Something I read claimed that EU VAT laws didn't allow zero rated items at all, yet so many items were already zero rated under UK VAT rules, so nothing is making sense.

 
Old 01-05-2021, 05:53 PM   #25
Hermani
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pastychomper View Post
One, it removes the most distant (and therefore least accountable) source of legislation in the UK. The real effects will depend a lot on the state of UK politics and how involved the electorate are anyway. I agree with cynwulf that the Lisbon Treaty was a factor in making it seem more desirable. My impression is that Remainers see the EU as a trading bloc (possibly no longer the largest now we've left), while Leavers see it as a government that wants a finger in every pie.
Well the EU government is still our elected government (albeit not your government anymore).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pastychomper View Post
Two, the removal of the minimum VAT rate. The Tories love VAT so the only difference we're likely to see for now is in the much-publicised "tampon tax". One of the requirements for joining the EEC was that the UK should start charging VAT on certain feminine hygiene products (previously tax-free). This was understandably unpopular among women, especially as the decision was made by (mostly) male officials.
This argument strikes me as rather odd. A member state government can exempt certain products from VAT. For instance, in Ireland there is a 0% VAT on feminine hygiene products as well: "Supplies of sanitary towels and sanitary tampons." are exempt from VAT. The UK government could have chosen to have a 0% tax on tampons as well, just as they did for a host of other products, but somehow they did not. You can read the local VAT exemptions (including the former UK list) in section V of the EU VAT taxation document. I guess you'll have to check whether your government isn't suddenly taxing some of those other products using VAT instead (..). And moreover, I work in health care and all of my production is VAT exempt over here in The Netherlands.. Are you sure the argument is about the lack of VAT exemptions?
 
Old 01-05-2021, 07:35 PM   #26
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I agree that it's rather odd, and I don't fully understand it. I've read enough sources to be confident my version was more-or-less correct* but I'm willing to be proved wrong on it.

*I see Wikipedia disagrees on when the reduced rate was applied - it's probably right.

The rules specify a minimum standard rate of 15%, a minimum reduced rate of 5% for "one or two items" and a zero rate for only some countries. The UK uses the reduced rate for more than 2 items, depending how they're counted (four of those on the list are heating fuels, maybe they count as one?) and a zero rate for most foods and pharmaceuticals. The explanation I've heard (but haven't managed to confirm) is that most of the lower rates were grandfathered in, and once a rate has been accepted or increased it is difficult to reduce. That doesn't explain why some products stayed exempt in Ireland and not the UK - maybe the Irish negotiators were better at their job or started from a stronger position, or simply got a "worse" deal in another area?
 
Old 01-09-2021, 06:59 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by Pastychomper View Post
The explanation I've heard (but haven't managed to confirm) is that most of the lower rates were grandfathered in, and once a rate has been accepted or increased it is difficult to reduce.
That is a likely explanation, and one I came up with myself later on. And the EU is striving towards a uniform VAT regime all through the union. I get that, it makes a lot of sense for businesses and consumers alike to have the same VAT tariffs everywhere.

Anyway, since you're Scottisch, do you fancy disposing the UK and joining the EU? I am sure there are ways to sort things out. The Frisians have been trading with you Scots for millennia now; maybe you could join our Kingdom and have a King instead of a Queen. We even have a provision for this because we still have Aruba, Curaçao and Saint Martin as separate countries in our Kingdom as well.

If you are still in doubt, look how the English talk about the Scottish people..

Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidMcCann View Post
> Scotland? Propped up with English taxpayers' money, yet they never stop whinging. I wouldn't miss them.

Last edited by Hermani; 01-09-2021 at 07:11 PM.
 
Old 01-10-2021, 07:20 AM   #28
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IIRC, the Scots said last year that they wanted out, (= a new referendum on splitting) but Boris wouldn't have it. That's one bit of the Empire England can let go of without creating a Foreign Policy disaster, but they are reluctant.
 
Old 01-10-2021, 08:52 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by Hermani View Post
If you are still in doubt, look how the English talk about the Scottish people..
Oi! I know there's a tradition of Leave advocates making up nonsense, but one person's opinion is not "the English", and neither part of that opinion is accurate.


Of the 12 UK regions, Scotland is the third largest per capita contributor to the UK GDP. (London and South East are first and second.)

The ONS also has a happiness report which gives Scotland an average happiness rating of 7.41 - just above the UK average of 7.38 - with the percentage of unhappy people being 9.6% - basically the same as England.


I support any culture's desire for self-determination, but I'd much rather Scotland stayed part of the union and worked towards improving it, instead of abandoning Britain to being governed by a Tory-controlled Westminster.


Last edited by boughtonp; 01-10-2021 at 08:57 AM.
 
Old 01-13-2021, 06:11 PM   #30
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Oi! I know there's a tradition of Leave advocates making up nonsense, but one person's opinion is not "the English", and neither part of that opinion is accurate.
Just stirring the pot a bit I just feel sorry for the Scots that they are dragged out of the EU while their majority wants to stay within the EU.

The whole Brexit thing is still a bit frustrating for us here in Holland. Because we are a major trading hub it makes us do a whole lot of extra work (we have employed a lot of new custom officials, make new IT systems, prepare support for businesses doing business with the UK) and it wil impact our economy negatively for billions of euros. All while having no say in the matter. And I won't talk about our fishermen.

And for what? Because the UK can then lower their VAT on tampons? No EU legislation is ment to bully around any member state. EU legislation is ment to create a stronger trading block while preserving the local preferences. I really see no benefit of this whole move and I strongly believe the UK will join the EU later on again, although it will certainly take two or three decades...
 
  


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