LinuxQuestions.org
Review your favorite Linux distribution.
Go Back   LinuxQuestions.org > Forums > Non-*NIX Forums > General
User Name
Password
General This forum is for non-technical general discussion which can include both Linux and non-Linux topics. Have fun!

Notices


View Poll Results: Your stance on weapons law
Pro gun (all guns for self defence) 13 36.11%
Anti gun (no guns for self defence) 11 30.56%
Selective gun (only selected guns for self defence) 6 16.67%
other option 6 16.67%
Voters: 36. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
  Search this Thread
Old 04-17-2019, 08:08 PM   #106
ntubski
Senior Member
 
Registered: Nov 2005
Distribution: Debian, Arch
Posts: 3,442

Rep: Reputation: 1703Reputation: 1703Reputation: 1703Reputation: 1703Reputation: 1703Reputation: 1703Reputation: 1703Reputation: 1703Reputation: 1703Reputation: 1703Reputation: 1703

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuangTzu View Post
enorbet I did a quick calculation:

If Europe is viewed as a collective of states similar to the USA then they (Europe) have 47.19 per 100,000 citizens firearm related deaths.
I think your calculation is wrong, you should take the average of the "Total" column (weighted by population) not summing them (since the units are deaths/100000 people).

The unweighted average is 1.81, but that is not correct either, I don't have patience to go looking up population figures for each country right now.
 
Old 04-17-2019, 08:30 PM   #107
ChuangTzu
Senior Member
 
Registered: May 2015
Location: Where ever needed
Distribution: Slackware/Salix while testing others
Posts: 1,297

Rep: Reputation: 1187Reputation: 1187Reputation: 1187Reputation: 1187Reputation: 1187Reputation: 1187Reputation: 1187Reputation: 1187Reputation: 1187
Quote:
Originally Posted by ntubski View Post
I think your calculation is wrong, you should take the average of the "Total" column (weighted by population) not summing them (since the units are deaths/100000 people).

The unweighted average is 1.81, but that is not correct either, I don't have patience to go looking up population figures for each country right now.
I think you are correct, I adjusted that post with other data. Thanks.
 
Old 04-18-2019, 02:13 AM   #108
descendant_command
Senior Member
 
Registered: Mar 2012
Posts: 1,696

Rep: Reputation: 517Reputation: 517Reputation: 517Reputation: 517Reputation: 517Reputation: 517
Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet View Post
IMHO those are points worthy of discussion and you seem earnest enough so maybe you might not weaken the value of your earnest argument by continuing to use fllacious generalities like "sole purpose to kill people". Clearly that will have only negative impact on anyone in favor of firearms or on the fence since it delivers a message of "I will stretch the truth and sensationalize a story to make my point". I sincerely doubt that's what you'd prefer.
No, and I didn’t indent my points to come across that way - I suspect that’s a function of the ‘gun argument’ being generally argued from the extremes and that framework of binary positions being applied to any discussion of the subject.

I’m also not “anti-gun” and have done a lot of shooting in various capacities and in my younger years even managed to qualify for the national team in 900yd+ competition shooting.

My “sole purpose” comment refers to weapons designed specifically for human targets that are particularly unsuited to hunting / pest control / large animal deterrent etc. - basically “weapons of war” that shouldn’t have a role in general society.
 
Old 04-18-2019, 02:29 AM   #109
descendant_command
Senior Member
 
Registered: Mar 2012
Posts: 1,696

Rep: Reputation: 517Reputation: 517Reputation: 517Reputation: 517Reputation: 517Reputation: 517
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trihexagonal View Post
If the "sole purpose" of firearms was "killing people" it stands to reason that only someone intent on "killing people" would buy one, then go out and kill somebody since that is its "sole purpose" and all it's good for.

Which we all know is not the case since that is not its sole purpose. I did not buy my stainless steel Ruger Mini-14 with the intent of "killing people", I bought it to have in my home as a method of self-defense.
So, it’s for killing people then ... or is your house full of bears too?
Quote:
That said, I pimped it out with a flash suppressor, interchangeable folding stock and several 30 round clips. By duct taping two side by side end over end you have a 60 round jungle clip to flip over and continue fire.
Nice! You could take out a whole classroom full of bears with that
 
Old 04-18-2019, 03:13 AM   #110
descendant_command
Senior Member
 
Registered: Mar 2012
Posts: 1,696

Rep: Reputation: 517Reputation: 517Reputation: 517Reputation: 517Reputation: 517Reputation: 517
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuangTzu View Post
Milwaukee County Sheriff David Clarke - You Have A Duty To Protect Your Family
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEibmLh5qRI
Wow.
It really is a culture of fear isn't it.
 
Old 04-18-2019, 03:23 AM   #111
cynwulf
Senior Member
 
Registered: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,254
Blog Entries: 5

Rep: Reputation: 1430Reputation: 1430Reputation: 1430Reputation: 1430Reputation: 1430Reputation: 1430Reputation: 1430Reputation: 1430Reputation: 1430Reputation: 1430
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuangTzu View Post
I think you are correct, I adjusted that post with other data. Thanks.
From your gunpolicy.org link, just do the straight comparison with the US:

https://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/c...000_people/194

And at this point I'm pretty much done. Thanks to all, it's been interesting.

 
Old 04-18-2019, 05:30 AM   #112
Trihexagonal
Member
 
Registered: Jul 2017
Location: Land of 1000 Nights
Distribution: FreeBSD, OpenBSD and Solaris
Posts: 191

Rep: Reputation: 216Reputation: 216Reputation: 216
Quote:
Originally Posted by descendant_command View Post
So, it’s for killing people then ... or is your house full of bears too?
No, it's for firing a 5.56mm projectile. Where it travels is on you.

Not you, people who actually own one. It's obvious your knowledge of firearms is limited to hyperbolic rhetoric. Very limited since you continue to dwell on a flawed argument.

We don't have bears here. I've gone deer hunting with my mini-14. You're limited to how many rounds your magazine can hold and I used the stock magazine. It's considered a little small caliber for large game and most people use a higher caliber. It's good for varmint hunting. A blast to pop off 30 rounds in a few seconds. Best if you've got tracers and shoot at night.


They had plans to break in my house without me hearing them over my headphones and beating me to death with baseball bats. I felt something was wrong and took off my headphones just in time to hear a Scanner transmission of every detail of what was going down, who they were, what they drove, where they were from and their mission obvious. Kill the Demon that brought Hell with him. All that prevented two people breaking down my door to find me sitting in the dark once I opened fire was a small patch of ice in the intersection 2 blocks from my house that caused them to slide and have an accident that sent one of them to the ER.

My own awareness alerted me to something not being right but the credit for my survival goes to God. I don't do weather control and ice spells not my area of expertise. They know what it is first hand and why things went bad for everybody but me. Thank you, Jesus. I'll take it from here.

It's real Devil's Work from that point on and I rose to the occasion. We were just getting started and far from over. Business like that is never finished, forgotten or forgiven. Ever.

I would have opened up on them from the dark as soon a they came through the door with 60 rounds and no warning shots. They wanted to kill me and I was going to turn the tables in a big way. That's the risk you take dealing with the Devil.

That's just a small portion of a real world life and death situation. Not the tired talking points you put forth to further flawed logic in a losing argument you have yet to show any factual knowledge of at this point.


Are you up to surprise home invasion late at night in a kill or be killed situation? Would you grab a pistol if it was shoved in your face and fight for your life? What if somebody pulled a knife? Could you take it from them? Would you see the dawn if it went down tonight? Would your family survive? My enemies are very powerful, it made me even more powerful. Are you up to it? Or are bears your bugbear and the only thing you fear or think a gun is needed for?

Do you own a firearm? Carry a knife? Ready to blind someone with a pen to survive? Fight bare knuckles in the street for your life against multiple opponents? Or is all that something that only happens to other people and beneath you as an Enlightened being?

Quote:
Originally Posted by descendant_command View Post
Nice! You could take out a whole classroom full of bears with that
Your ignorance of weaponry is painfully obvious and becoming increasingly evident.

If deer at 200 pounds are considered large game for a 5.56mm, what chance do you think it would have against a bear?

Not your Teddy Bear. An 800 pound female grizzly protecting her cub. Bears seemingly your special area of interest.


What hands on experience do you have with firearms beyond shooting off your mouth? Hopefully more than you let on for your own sake and survival. This projects weakness and predators pick up on that. It makes you prey and they would be all over you.

These are all real life situations in my world I have witnessed or been involved in and I didn't need a gun to survive. I have a real question as to how you would fare in it. Gun or no gun.

Last edited by Trihexagonal; 04-18-2019 at 05:50 AM.
 
Old 04-18-2019, 06:46 AM   #113
descendant_command
Senior Member
 
Registered: Mar 2012
Posts: 1,696

Rep: Reputation: 517Reputation: 517Reputation: 517Reputation: 517Reputation: 517Reputation: 517
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trihexagonal View Post
No, it's for firing a 5.56mm projectile. Where it travels is on you.
Open with a threat?
Quote:
Not you, people who actually own one. It's obvious your knowledge of firearms is limited to hyperbolic rhetoric. Very limited since you continue to dwell on a flawed argument.
Follow up with a schoolyard putdown.
Quote:
We don't have bears here. I've gone deer hunting with my mini-14. You're limited to how many rounds your magazine can hold and I used the stock magazine. It's considered a little small caliber for large game and most people use a higher caliber. It's good for varmint hunting. A blast to pop off 30 rounds in a few seconds. Best if you've got tracers and shoot at night.
Finally get to a point.
Great, sounds like fun, but as you say, probably a little light for deer (.243 is a good deer/goat/tahr round with a nice flat trajectory) and you're not spraying all those 60 rounds off at one, with your stock folded either. For loosing tracer randomly into the dark though, just the tool for the job!
Quote:
< snip homicidal fantasy sequence with added religious justification themes >

Are you up to surprise home invasion late at night in a kill or be killed situation? Would you grab a pistol if it was shoved in your face and fight for your life? What if somebody pulled a knife? Could you take it from them? Would you see the dawn if it went down tonight? Would your family survive? My enemies are very powerful, it made me even more powerful.
How often does that even happen?
And what do you need to do to make enemies like that?
I would imagine if they really wanted to get you, you wouldn't even see it coming.
Quote:
Or are bears your bugbear and the only thing you fear or think a gun is needed for?
You seem to have missed the point of the bear comment - must remember to be more literal when talking to americans...
Quote:
Do you own a firearm?
Yes.
Quote:
Carry a knife?
No.
Quote:
Ready to blind someone with a pen to survive?
WTF?
Quote:
Fight bare knuckles in the street for your life against multiple opponents?
Have done - but in hindsight, it probably wasn't for my life.
Quote:
Or is all that something that only happens to other people and beneath you as an Enlightened being?
Not at all, but much less likely to prove fatal in a society not awash in lethal weapons and attitudes such as yours.
Quote:
Your ignorance of weaponry is painfully obvious and becoming increasingly evident.

If deer at 200 pounds are considered large game for a 5.56mm, what chance do you think it would have against a bear?

Not your Teddy Bear. An 800 pound female grizzly protecting her cub. Bears seemingly your special area of interest.
Again, see 'bears' above.
Quote:
What hands on experience do you have with firearms beyond shooting off your mouth?
Enough to use them in a safe and competent manner.
Quote:
Hopefully more than you let on for your own sake and survival.
They have nothing to do with my survival.
Quote:
This projects weakness and predators pick up on that. It makes you prey and they would be all over you.

These are all real life situations in my world I have witnessed or been involved in and I didn't need a gun to survive. I have a real question as to how you would fare in it. Gun or no gun.
Again with the 'kill or be killed' mentality.
You're really not selling the USA as the "greatest country on earth" - sounds like a shitty place to live.
 
Old 04-18-2019, 07:57 AM   #114
ntubski
Senior Member
 
Registered: Nov 2005
Distribution: Debian, Arch
Posts: 3,442

Rep: Reputation: 1703Reputation: 1703Reputation: 1703Reputation: 1703Reputation: 1703Reputation: 1703Reputation: 1703Reputation: 1703Reputation: 1703Reputation: 1703Reputation: 1703
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuangTzu View Post
In the European Union, annual deaths resulting from firearms total

2000/12: 87,0005 (https://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/r...european-union)

USA averages less than 32,000, and only 28,663 for the year 2000. (https://gun-control.procon.org/view....ourceID=006094)
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuangTzu View Post
I think you are correct, I adjusted that post with other data. Thanks.
There are two problems with the data in your adjusted post.

First, 87000 is the total number of deaths over the twelve years between 2000-2012. So the EU averages 7250 deaths per year. This is a mistake on the gunpolicy.org website, it's apparent after you follow the link to their source: https://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/c...n/quotes/12042
Quote:
Originally Posted by Duquet, Nils and Maarten Van Alstein. 2015 ‘Gun-Related Deaths in Europe, 2000-2012.’
[B]etween 2000 and 2012,… we can estimate the total figure of firearms-related deaths in Europe in this period as approximately 94,000.(1)

For the 27 EU Member States for which data is available,(2) this figure corresponds to almost 87,000 deaths…
Second, you are comparing total deaths, and the EU has a larger population than the US. cynwulf already found the correct comparison, which is 11.96/100k for US vs 1.34/100k for EU.
 
Old 04-18-2019, 08:00 AM   #115
Trihexagonal
Member
 
Registered: Jul 2017
Location: Land of 1000 Nights
Distribution: FreeBSD, OpenBSD and Solaris
Posts: 191

Rep: Reputation: 216Reputation: 216Reputation: 216
Quote:
Originally Posted by descendant_command View Post
Open with a threat?
Where is the threat and who is it directed at?

I said it fires a 5.56mm round. Where it travels is on you. That means it is your responsibility. It's on you.


This is more your speed.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Spongebob.jpg
Views:	10
Size:	141.8 KB
ID:	30371  
 
Old 04-18-2019, 08:40 AM   #116
enorbet
Senior Member
 
Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Virginia
Distribution: Slackware = Main OpSys for decades while testing others to keep up
Posts: 2,162

Rep: Reputation: 2165Reputation: 2165Reputation: 2165Reputation: 2165Reputation: 2165Reputation: 2165Reputation: 2165Reputation: 2165Reputation: 2165Reputation: 2165Reputation: 2165
Quote:
Originally Posted by descendant_command View Post
No, and I didn’t indent my points to come across that way - I suspect that’s a function of the ‘gun argument’ being generally argued from the extremes and that framework of binary positions being applied to any discussion of the subject.

I’m also not “anti-gun” and have done a lot of shooting in various capacities and in my younger years even managed to qualify for the national team in 900yd+ competition shooting.

My “sole purpose” comment refers to weapons designed specifically for human targets that are particularly unsuited to hunting / pest control / large animal deterrent etc. - basically “weapons of war” that shouldn’t have a role in general society.
Admittedly that is a much tougher discussion and I really don't have a quick answer for it. On one hand I do trust in the statistics on an equalized by population (and somewhat modified by density)of the downsides, shooting deaths, that speaks to the danger of civilians being allowed to posses military firearms. The number of deaths per population seems to tell us that it is not a serious element but then there are side affects like common local police forces becoming militarized and that has yet to play out, so it's not really clear. On the other, I do support maintaining a degree of what some call "rugged individualism" and am seriously concerned what happens to the mindset of a disarmed citizenry. If I had any good answers to the conundrum on that scale I suppose I'd be running for high office somewhere but I settle for arguing issues, voting, and carving out a little spot I can call my own.

Thank you for clarifying your position. It has some important components in my view.
 
Old 04-18-2019, 10:21 AM   #117
rokytnji
LQ Veteran
 
Registered: Mar 2008
Location: Waaaaay out West Texas
Distribution: AntiX 17
Posts: 5,745
Blog Entries: 20

Rep: Reputation: 2801Reputation: 2801Reputation: 2801Reputation: 2801Reputation: 2801Reputation: 2801Reputation: 2801Reputation: 2801Reputation: 2801Reputation: 2801Reputation: 2801
How often does that happen?

Happened once to my wife Only reason it happened? My wife is good looking.
She took out his knees with her .25 auto.
She got to keep her gun when all was said and done with the police.
In your scenario she would been been raped, or worse.

Happening once is enough.

Climate of fear? Is these the best you have offer as a argument?

Sheesh. I am outa of here also. It is like explaining motorcycle thrills to someone in a sensory deprivation chamber. No clue what so ever. How can you explain smells of the country side to one in a chamber.

Having been military. I have no grandeur illusions of surviving a combat encounter with them. Not without a lot of help from them taking my point of view any ways. Even then. Jail time for those that do not follow orders.

Any former combat soldier worth his salt realizes this.

In a war. Lot's of things happen that never see the light of day.
Ask any Syrian. Ask any Venezuelan.

They can also explain to you what a real climate of fear is also. Since everyone south of us wants to emigrate to this climate of fear you seem to see.

descendant command . What a unusual nepotism sounding user name,

descendant _ born with it
command _ do what the born with it dude says

No wonder I don't listen. Good luck picking my user name apart.
 
Old 04-18-2019, 03:36 PM   #118
ChuangTzu
Senior Member
 
Registered: May 2015
Location: Where ever needed
Distribution: Slackware/Salix while testing others
Posts: 1,297

Rep: Reputation: 1187Reputation: 1187Reputation: 1187Reputation: 1187Reputation: 1187Reputation: 1187Reputation: 1187Reputation: 1187Reputation: 1187
Quote:
Originally Posted by cynwulf View Post
From your gunpolicy.org link, just do the straight comparison with the US:

https://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/c...000_people/194

And at this point I'm pretty much done. Thanks to all, it's been interesting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ntubski View Post
There are two problems with the data in your adjusted post.

First, 87000 is the total number of deaths over the twelve years between 2000-2012. So the EU averages 7250 deaths per year. This is a mistake on the gunpolicy.org website, it's apparent after you follow the link to their source: https://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/c...n/quotes/12042


Second, you are comparing total deaths, and the EU has a larger population than the US. cynwulf already found the correct comparison, which is 11.96/100k for US vs 1.34/100k for EU.
cynwulf and ntubski, If the data is correct then I was mistaken regarding the numbers and good job reducing the numbers. I did notice, however, that the data is skewed since the researchers stated that not all of the EU countries report gun violence, there is discrepancy between how each country does report it/what they consider gun violence, and as a result the researchers used an "average" for those countries. https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statis...ime_statistics

I am curious if there is a corollary in the EU with an increase of non gun related violent crime: robberies, break and entering, rape, assault etc... Also curious, if some of the gun numbers are suppressed for political reasons etc... Seems like the data is inconsistent in the USA and EU, this NPR report says that deaths related to guns in USA is 3.85 per 100,000 (https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsan...ther-countries). The US might have a higher rate of gun deaths/crimes, but it does have a lower rate of overall violent crime.

Then there is this report that claims that guns and gun ownership is on the rise in Europe as a result of terrorism threats, immigration and a rise in violent crime: https://dailycaller.com/2019/01/08/g...p-rise-europe/

Interesting article: https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/...in-europe.html

This is interesting: https://crimeresearch.org/2016/01/co...-in-frequency/

Crime index by country, highest to lowest: https://www.numbeo.com/crime/rankings_by_country.jsp

17 most unsafe cities in Europe:
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...-a6895511.html

Old but still interesting, "UK is violent crime capital of Europe": https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...of-Europe.html

Irregardless though, I prefer having the freedom and right to bear arms over living somewhere the citizens do not have that right. I am reminded of the wise words from Benjamin Franklin:
Quote:
Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
And a Taoist proverb:
Quote:
A man well trained in the art of the sword can travel anywhere without fear or stress.

Last edited by ChuangTzu; 04-18-2019 at 03:45 PM.
 
Old 04-18-2019, 03:47 PM   #119
ChuangTzu
Senior Member
 
Registered: May 2015
Location: Where ever needed
Distribution: Slackware/Salix while testing others
Posts: 1,297

Rep: Reputation: 1187Reputation: 1187Reputation: 1187Reputation: 1187Reputation: 1187Reputation: 1187Reputation: 1187Reputation: 1187Reputation: 1187
Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet View Post
Admittedly that is a much tougher discussion and I really don't have a quick answer for it. On one hand I do trust in the statistics on an equalized by population (and somewhat modified by density)of the downsides, shooting deaths, that speaks to the danger of civilians being allowed to posses military firearms. The number of deaths per population seems to tell us that it is not a serious element but then there are side affects like common local police forces becoming militarized and that has yet to play out, so it's not really clear. On the other, I do support maintaining a degree of what some call "rugged individualism" and am seriously concerned what happens to the mindset of a disarmed citizenry. If I had any good answers to the conundrum on that scale I suppose I'd be running for high office somewhere but I settle for arguing issues, voting, and carving out a little spot I can call my own.

Thank you for clarifying your position. It has some important components in my view.
Are you declaring for a VA election?
 
Old 04-18-2019, 03:49 PM   #120
ChuangTzu
Senior Member
 
Registered: May 2015
Location: Where ever needed
Distribution: Slackware/Salix while testing others
Posts: 1,297

Rep: Reputation: 1187Reputation: 1187Reputation: 1187Reputation: 1187Reputation: 1187Reputation: 1187Reputation: 1187Reputation: 1187Reputation: 1187
Thumbs up

Quote:
Originally Posted by rokytnji View Post
How often does that happen?

Happened once to my wife Only reason it happened? My wife is good looking.
She took out his knees with her .25 auto.
She got to keep her gun when all was said and done with the police.
In your scenario she would been been raped, or worse.

Happening once is enough.

Climate of fear? Is these the best you have offer as a argument?

Sheesh. I am outa of here also. It is like explaining motorcycle thrills to someone in a sensory deprivation chamber. No clue what so ever. How can you explain smells of the country side to one in a chamber.

Having been military. I have no grandeur illusions of surviving a combat encounter with them. Not without a lot of help from them taking my point of view any ways. Even then. Jail time for those that do not follow orders.

Any former combat soldier worth his salt realizes this.

In a war. Lot's of things happen that never see the light of day.
Ask any Syrian. Ask any Venezuelan.

They can also explain to you what a real climate of fear is also. Since everyone south of us wants to emigrate to this climate of fear you seem to see.

descendant command . What a unusual nepotism sounding user name,

descendant _ born with it
command _ do what the born with it dude says

No wonder I don't listen. Good luck picking my user name apart.
Roky, ever notice how stories like your wife's never get (or hardly get) reported by the news. Glad your wife was packing heat that day.
 
  


Reply

Tags
safety


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off



Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Dynamic local subnet allowance based on current IP xxmsaxx Linux - Networking 2 10-22-2009 01:18 PM
Trying to avoid bad color gun in old CRT ktvoelker Linux - Software 2 07-23-2005 10:14 AM
disk space allowance? whovian Linux - Newbie 2 07-10-2005 03:11 PM
why gun compiler doesn't work michaelwu Linux - Software 1 04-22-2005 02:50 AM
pcmcia, Mandrake, modules, and a smoking gun oiper Linux - Networking 0 07-26-2004 12:20 AM

LinuxQuestions.org > Forums > Non-*NIX Forums > General

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:36 AM.

Main Menu
Advertisement
My LQ
Write for LQ
LinuxQuestions.org is looking for people interested in writing Editorials, Articles, Reviews, and more. If you'd like to contribute content, let us know.
Main Menu
Syndicate
RSS1  Latest Threads
RSS1  LQ News
Twitter: @linuxquestions
Facebook: linuxquestions Google+: linuxquestions
Open Source Consulting | Domain Registration