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Old 02-19-2018, 01:52 AM   #16
Mr. Alex
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stf92, I think it's really a simple question. We don't have THAT many operating systems to chose from. Main three: Windows, Linux, Mac.

Windows = works.
Linux = tinker.
Mac = "Apple".

Other options like BSD, Haiku, ArcaOS, FreeDOS, Solaris... are not for using on regular home computer if you want this computer to do stuff. So thinking for too long is really not necessary. If you want your PC to just work and do stuff go with Windows 7. Not 10, this one is people's enemy. 8/8.1 will also do but it has ugly design. That's about it as it looks to me.

One great thing about 7 is that it gives you ability to go out and live real life. Linux can't provide you with this. You install Windows 7, install and configure all your programs and then go out and have a life. Meet new people, read new books, learn new crafts, visit new countries, observe nature and learn how society works... Lots of stuff. And Windows 7 will be absolutely fine with that.
 
Old 02-19-2018, 02:55 AM   #17
enorbet
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Mr. Alex where are you getting this notion that Linux requires a lot of tinkering? It just isn't so, for starters. Secondly have you ever added up the time you spend waiting on forced updates? or hunting down a cryptic error? or fixing virus or malware , or for that matter installing, updating and scanning with AV and AntiMalware software? On top of that consider that the majority of skills I learned in Linux almost 20 years ago are still useful in exactly the same way as they were then (though there are less now needed) when OTOH Win 7, let alone Win 10 has extremely little in common with Win98 from that same time, so the learning curve never stops in Windows, even for some rather mundane operations..

Just how many hours do you suppose you personally have actually worked in Linux compared to Windows? I ask this because you truly don't appear to know Linux very well at all.... and what do you imagine you will do in a little less than 2 years when Win 7 extended support ends?

Last edited by enorbet; 02-19-2018 at 02:57 AM.
 
Old 02-19-2018, 04:02 AM   #18
Mr. Alex
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet
Mr. Alex where are you getting this notion that Linux requires a lot of tinkering?
Well maybe I am exaggerating a bit. I am used to customizing my working environment a lot on every system and used Arch in my "Linux times". Maybe that would be the reason.

Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet
Secondly have you ever added up the time you spend waiting on forced updates? or hunting down a cryptic error? or fixing virus or malware...
Never had any malware on my Windows since switching to it in the beginning of 2016. Not even once. You don't get malware in Windows if you understand how computers work. I am not saying anything good about Windows here, it's just like if you can drive a car well you won't run into pillars. 95% of car drivers (computer users) don't know how to drive (use computer). Thus pillars (viruses). And I don't ever wait for updates. Not even sure what you mean by this. As for cryptic errors, well, they occur sometimes. Mostly can be solved. Sometimes with help of forums.

Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet
or for that matter installing, updating and scanning with AV and AntiMalware software
This one is interesting. Installing AV software is only done by those who don't understand how computers work. GNU/Linux taught me this. I don't install AV. I only have standalone scanners. And don't scan with them that often. And whenever I do it, no viruses are found.

Quote:
On top of that consider that the majority of skills I learned in Linux almost 20 years ago are still useful in exactly the same way as they were then (though there are less now needed) when OTOH Win 7, let alone Win 10 has extremely little in common with Win98
When systemd was released and implemented in Arch is when I suddenly and shockingly found out I don't know how to use my Arch Linux any more even though I was once very happy with /etc/rc.conf . And you tell me that 20 years in Linux nothing changed. I was once very happy to use Gnome 2. Then it was gone. And I was left without my only fave DE. Noone asked me whether I want it to be gone or not. It was just gone. And in Windows 7 you can still install "Classic Shell" program to make START menu like it was in Windows 98. And don't tell me about MATE. It doesn't look and feel like Gnome 2 any more.

Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet
Win 7, let alone Win 10 has extremely little in common with Win98
Windows 98 and Windows 10 are pretty much same thing. START menu changed a little (can be fixed) and some options of the OS look different. But other than that same system.

Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet
so the learning curve never stops in Windows
Rather never begins. There's not much to learn if you are not Windows Server sysadmin.

Interenting thing is: it was actually Linux that tought me how to properly use Windows. Yes, it's exactly how it is! Windows doesn't teach you anything (nor does it motivate you to learn). Linux teaches both Linux and Windows.

Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet
Just how many hours do you suppose you personally have actually worked in Linux compared to Windows?
I have no idea about hours. I was a Linux user for exactly 6 years.

Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet
and what do you imagine you will do in a little less than 2 years when Win 7 extended support ends?
End of support is not that big of a deal. Some can still use Windows XP. And XP is patched well enough to resist malware attempts to infect the machine. Windows 7 will be fine 6-8 more years I believe. And then I will most likely abandon computers all together. I was already writing about it in https://www.linuxquestions.org/quest...la-4175623732/ .
 
Old 02-19-2018, 04:37 AM   #19
Lysander666
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Alex View Post
Rather never begins. There's not much to learn if you are not Windows Server sysadmin.
I'm not so sure that's true, I think it's about different types of learning, or about what one is learning. The time spent can be similar.

For instance, there are staff at my workplace who have trouble using programs like Powerpoint, Outlook etc. A task that you or I could accomplish in very little time on such programs will confuse them and take them comparatively a lot longer. So really, when it comes to Windows, it's relative to the user, it's just what one is spending one's time on.

For them, it might take upwards of an hour working out how to format text in Powerpoint - whereas it might take me an hour or more to figure out what chown/chmod command arguments I need to configure permissions on a drive. It's all relative.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuangTzu View Post
Lysander, now that I've spat Earl Grey all over my desk, you must share where you found that picture.
I'm pretty sure that one came from /g/ on 4chan. I'm not sure who made it though.

I agree with the placement of Ubuntu and Mint. I'm pretty sure Android would be down with the shadows on the wall though, even though it's Linux-based. It's a nice way to use Plato's allegory.

Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet View Post
Mr. Alex where are you getting this notion that Linux requires a lot of tinkering?
I addressed a related point over on the Debian forums. Discussions regarding OS 'tinkering' are again relative to definitions of the word.

Last edited by Lysander666; 02-19-2018 at 04:52 AM.
 
Old 02-19-2018, 05:40 AM   #20
Trihexagonal
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Alex View Post
stf92, I think it's really a simple question. We don't have THAT many operating systems to chose from. Main three: Windows, Linux, Mac.

Windows = works.
Linux = tinker.
Mac = "Apple".

Other options like BSD, Haiku, ArcaOS, FreeDOS, Solaris... are not for using on regular home computer if you want this computer to do stuff.
And here I sit with 5 FreeBSD and 2 OpenBSD laptops, and for the past 13 years thought I've been doing something with BSD on home computers...

The Thinkpad X61 running FreeBSD 11.1-RELEASE-p4 that serves as my dedicated .mp3 player I've been so happy with up till now will have to go. So will my Thinkpad T43 OpenBSD 6.2 text editor. The FreeBSD box I use for file transfers is bunk now, too, I suppose. I was thinking of turning one into a Kodi box but scratch that.

The other 3 all are online now and within reach. I'm using one now, but I might as well buy a Windows CD now I know I can't do anything on a regular home computer with BSD.

Guess it's better to find out late than never.


Edit: To illustrate how shocked to find that out I really was? I forgot to promote my site with the tutorial on Building A FreeBSD Desktop From Scratch, and I rarely miss a chance to do that.

Last edited by Trihexagonal; 02-19-2018 at 07:12 AM.
 
Old 02-19-2018, 06:04 AM   #21
wpeckham
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Linux ALLOWS more tinkering, but does not REQUIRE tinkering.
If you want to customize everything, you can because Linux and *bsd ALLOW that. All of the more mature Linux distributions "just work" once you complete and install and the same initial configuration you would have to do on a Windows or little fruit machine.
 
Old 02-19-2018, 08:26 AM   #22
stf92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Alex View Post
stf92, I think it's really a simple question. We don't have THAT many operating systems to chose from. Main three: Windows, Linux, Mac.

Windows = works.
Linux = tinker.
Mac = "Apple".

Other options like BSD, Haiku, ArcaOS, FreeDOS, Solaris... are not for using on regular home computer if you want this computer to do stuff. So thinking for too long is really not necessary. If you want your PC to just work and do stuff go with Windows 7. Not 10, this one is people's enemy. 8/8.1 will also do but it has ugly design. That's about it as it looks to me.

One great thing about 7 is that it gives you ability to go out and live real life. Linux can't provide you with this. You install Windows 7, install and configure all your programs and then go out and have a life. Meet new people, read new books, learn new crafts, visit new countries, observe nature and learn how society works... Lots of stuff. And Windows 7 will be absolutely fine with that.
Two points: tinker is you have to tinker with it or it is the result of tinkering? Secondly: This machine, a laptop with 32GB eMMC, Windows 10 was installed by the manufacturer. Would it be the same if I now install another OS in its place and later I download Windows 10 and install it. Could not the manufacturer tweak the OS to fit details of this machine?
 
Old 02-19-2018, 09:21 AM   #23
cynwulf
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Comparing the MS Windows GUI with the various free desktop environments also seems rather pointless. I agree that MS Windows is much more functional on the desktop, it has to be. But in general people don't usually use something like Linux because they want a drop in replacement for a proprietary OS like MS Windows. Compared to the time and investment which has gone into MS Windows as a production workstation OS - Linux has X11 and some free desktops and other applications.

The equivalent Linux based OS is Android. There really is no other contender...

So yes there's "tinkering", even with the most spoon feed friendly Linux distributions, this is because no one is paid to make it all autonomous and easy for end users. If you want that, you pay for it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JWJones View Post
True! I actually use the MS USB Optical Mouse as well, but not the trackball model. But they are good mice.
I have a yellowing one at home which is nearly 20 years old and still going strong.

Last edited by cynwulf; 02-19-2018 at 09:22 AM.
 
Old 02-19-2018, 02:59 PM   #24
ChuangTzu
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Ok, thats it, convinced I am, Mr. Alex has become a Windows troll in Linux forums.

Mr. Alex, there are plenty of Windows forums out there, and if you are running Windows without AV/Malware scanner then you may need to refill your meds. Thats like being with a prostitute and using no condoms thinking the risks are low because you are the man and know what you are doing.

Windows=Viruses by design and implementation as well as by risk/rewards for malware designers. You could even say that Windows is a virus/malware masquerading as an OS.
 
Old 02-19-2018, 04:18 PM   #25
enorbet
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I'm reticent to add to this obnoxious thread but in my experience "Don't feed the trolls" has a sometimes negative effect of leaving FUD unchallenged allowing it to fester and become accepted as at least a possibility. So I have to respond but will try to keep this very short.

While I agree that systemd adoption by so many distros did come with a minor learning curve, it hasn't at least yet turned into The Big Bad Wolf inciting so many early flame wars. It really isn't that steep a curve and, thanks to the Gentoo community, eudev has made it possible to go on quite handily without systemd for a number of distros. As for tinkering, Mr. Alex, surely you knew from day one that by definition a rolling release such as Arch was designed for tinkering, although the users I know find that it isn't a sizeable amount of time each week.

I find Mr Alex's assertion that just because even in Win 10 a user can choose "Classic" over "Default" and get the same exact experience of Win 98 to be naive, if not outright ignorance of the facts. Beginning with Win 8 MS made a concerted effort to move towards a touchscreen friendly system, which required some rather deep alterations that do indeed affect those using mouse and keyboard. If you recall, since Win 98 was still operating as a shell on top of DOS, the fundamentals including the entire concept of permissions changed radically with the introduction of even XP. FWIW in my estimation, Win2K was the best MS ever offered and almost nothing of any importance in it still exists. Even in Win 7 the Administrator account has very limited privileges. The recommended User account managed to get the right to install programs, which was very often impossible as User in Win 98. To say that anything but the basic Menu offered by Win10 "Classic" behaves like Win98 I find to be conveniently ignorant of "how computers work". The very fact that from Win 7 onward, Windows suffers from less Malware vulnurability than the mess it was prior, is testament to how much fundamentally changed. It either changed on a deep level or it didn't. One cannot have it both ways.

Admittedly my experience on Win 7 has grown weaker since as of about 8 years ago I began to enjoy Linux uptimes measured in many months and most often booted to a test Linux distro rather than my old Win 7 system, but I do recall my clients being constantly hounded about updates, and even many minutes wasted just while shutting down and/or rebooting (which Windows, all Windows, is still required to do rather a lot since it is a monolithic Cathedral style system) awaiting the install of some update. I've invested thousands of hours in both Linux and Windows, and in the case of Windows that evolved into being just to be able to fix individuals' and business systems that used it. My experience has been that Windows takes not only more tinkering but a lot more continual tinkering than a solid Linux system like Slackware, and prior to that IBM's OS/2. Both of those were pretty much "set it and forget it" requiring configuration setup time at first but then only minor maintenance from then, on. Windows also suffers from more downtime than Linux as an integral part of that maintenance.

While I certainly understand the attraction of Windows to casual users and it's resulting larger niche market share, that convenience comes at a cost and I don't mean just in dollars. That is entirely logical as it is a package deal. It comes with that territory. To deny that it does, to insist that it isn't a casual user niche based in seeming convenience I find to be either naive or disingenuous.

Go ahead Mr Alex. Stick with Windows and by all means in 6 years give up all microprocessors, if you can. That's your choice. Just kindly refrain from coming into our Home and defecating on the carpet, OK? It's just rude and obnoxious and serves no valid purpose other than the possibility to assuage your ego.
 
Old 02-19-2018, 04:30 PM   #26
fido_dogstoyevsky
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trihexagonal View Post
And here I sit with 5 FreeBSD and 2 OpenBSD laptops, and for the past 13 years thought I've been doing something with BSD on home computers...

...I might as well buy a Windows CD now I know I can't do anything on a regular home computer with BSD...
And when you've bought it you need to decide WHICH ONE of those seven laptops is getting windowsed - and then when to buy the other six CDs
 
  


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