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Old 05-01-2021, 11:11 AM   #16
business_kid
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Agreed. IT is rough. Hardware is even rougher. Several relatives are in IT. Like one who
  • Got a Computer Science Degree.
  • Got a Masters in Music & Media Studies.
  • Still couldn't get a job. But he saw an opening, so
  • He borrowed cash, bought a Mac, an iphone, and a software package, and started trying to learn the three of them and put up some games in the App Store
  • 3 months later, he landed a job with jokers, led by a swindler on the basis of his games. He took it.
  • 5 years and 3 jobs later he went out as a subcontractor, working for a daily rate. He had narrowly avoided a breakdown. But by this stage, he could program and was fluent in about 10-12 programming languages.

My career in tech was over by the time I was 40, but I went out on my own with an idea I thought would not work. I was right - it didn't long term; but along the way, I took a side turn, and THAT worked and gave me another 17 years in business.

If you haven't experience & want to program, get experience - write a project. Nobody wants the Sorcerer's Apprentice.

Last edited by business_kid; 05-01-2021 at 11:15 AM.
 
Old 05-01-2021, 12:02 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rtmistler View Post
Priorities
If a priority to you is to find a career, then that is of higher priority than an any activities not directed towards attaining that goal. No one can guide you on that, you have to enable yourself, decide for yourself, and do for yourself.
This has to do with any job, any situation.

Regardless as to whether you can do these two jobs, if you do not do for yourself, no one is.

You're on the internet, you have time to be on this site. You have time and opportunity to look for a job.

Ondoho seems quite right about home skills. My take is that few employers give much of a hoot about time spent online providing free advice. With the exceptions that you're not using their systems, not doing it during work hours, and not associating them with anything unsavory.

What's any potential employer going to think when they see rants and swears? We're you really planning to cite your account as a reference?
 
Old 05-01-2021, 12:08 PM   #18
rtmistler
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Scasey's story is great.

Maybe I'm incorrect, but based on the time frame of 40 years, they entered the workforce late 70's early 80's. A few years ahead of me.

Well I got a college degree. Many people a few years older than me did not. Why? Those really were the days you could do that. Further, CS and IT were in their infancy. You could barely get a CS degree in the 70's. Their path is very much how careers went for people back then.

Today? I bet you'd be very hard pressed to find a job posting in programming or IT that doesn't say "B.S. degree required, M.S. preferred"

That's my experience.

If you're older, never going to go to college, suggest you seek a different career.
 
Old 05-01-2021, 12:41 PM   #19
jsbjsb001
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rtmistler View Post
This has to do with any job, any situation.
I don't believe I've said otherwise, nor said or implied you are wrong about that.

Quote:
Regardless as to whether you can do these two jobs, if you do not do for yourself, no one is.
I wasn't asking anyone else to apply for jobs for me. I was asking for practical advice, and I've not said anything about not receiving it either. So not really sure what you're getting at there...

Quote:
You're on the internet, you have time to be on this site. You have time and opportunity to look for a job.
Right, but I've already explained the job situation where I live too.

Quote:
Ondoho seems quite right about home skills. My take is that few employers give much of a hoot about time spent online providing free advice. With the exceptions that you're not using their systems, not doing it during work hours, and not associating them with anything unsavory.
While I resisted doing it for a long time, ondoho is now on my ignore list (which they were added to well before I posted this thread), since I was ignoring them since coming back to the forum anyway - so why not "make it official" as it were, so I did and added them to it. Therefore there would be little point in having them on my ignore list if I wanted to read their posts, therefore I haven't read their posts and have no intention to either - much less respond to them in any way. Although I will admit that I should have listened to other members before and put them on my ignore list a long time ago now, so I'll admit that.

In any case, I'd really like to know how computers somehow have developed a concept of money, in that: a computer has no idea if anyone is paying you to write a program, administer a system, etc. Therefore, and for example, a variable is still a variable regardless of whether you are in paid employment or are at home writing something as a personal project and not for employment. The same as a skill is still a skill, it doesn't change just because someone happens to be paying you or not paying you for it, the same for knowledge and experience. So am I missing something there? (rhetorical question)

And no, I wouldn't think it would be a good idea to be watching porn on a work computer, particularly since most places audit their systems and therefore have records of what users have done. I've heard of places keeping records of users activities for at least the last 6 months. So no, wouldn't want to be the "new guy" who gets busted for watching porn at work.

Quote:
What's any potential employer going to think when they see rants and swears? We're you really planning to cite your account as a reference?
Well I guess it depends on the employer, but that said... it wasn't directed at anyone here, nor was it directed at the site, any particular employer, or any business. So not sure I'd want to work for someone who does not pay any attention to the context in which things are said or done. And you really think that there isn't plenty of employers out there that swear themselves ? Well you probably don't want to watch Gordon Ramsay in that case...

In any case, and as I said before, this thread isn't meant to be a job application and I doubt most employers would even have any interest in it, nor much else of what's posted in this particular forum (and who could blame them?). This thread is also not a technical thread (which is why I posted it in the General forum in the first place).

And PS: I wasn't ranting, I was summing up the responses and replying to them in general. Or do you consider anything you don't agree with or like as a "rant"? (rhetorical question)
 
Old 05-01-2021, 12:57 PM   #20
scasey
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rtmistler View Post
Scasey's story is great.

Maybe I'm incorrect, but based on the time frame of 40 years, they entered the workforce late 70's early 80's. A few years ahead of me.

Well I got a college degree. Many people a few years older than me did not. Why? Those really were the days you could do that. Further, CS and IT were in their infancy. You could barely get a CS degree in the 70's. Their path is very much how careers went for people back then.

Today? I bet you'd be very hard pressed to find a job posting in programming or IT that doesn't say "B.S. degree required, M.S. preferred"

That's my experience.

If you're older, never going to go to college, suggest you seek a different career.
Entered the workforce in the mid 60s, actually. IT was late 70s, again not counting PCAM keypunch and operations.
I also have a BA…in Speech of all things…I like to say I have a BA in BS And yes, once I started working as a programmer the positions all required a degree…’tho back then, as you say, they didn’t care what discipline the degree was in.
 
Old 05-01-2021, 01:27 PM   #21
rtmistler
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scasey View Post
Entered the workforce in the mid 60s, actually. IT was late 70s, again not counting PCAM keypunch and operations.
I also have a BA…in Speech of all things…I like to say I have a BA in BS And yes, once I started working as a programmer the positions all required a degree…’tho back then, as you say, they didn’t care what discipline the degree was in.
Started with tty model 28 myself

@jsbjsb001,

Best wishes with your endeavors.
 
Old 05-03-2021, 08:34 AM   #22
jsbjsb001
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rtmistler View Post
...

@jsbjsb001,

Best wishes with your endeavors.
Gee, thanks for the encouragement, I'll just pull thousands of dollars I don't have out of the front of my pants

FYI, at least two of the certificates I mentioned before were in fact from what you call a "college" in the US of A for just one thing...

Looks like cynwulf was right; other than a few posts and advice within, this has been largely a waste of time. But at least I know why there's no point in asking questions like this here anymore...
 
Old 05-03-2021, 01:56 PM   #23
elcore
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jsbjsb001 View Post
As far as I'm concerned, there wouldn't be any point in living without any kind of decent future. Mentally speaking, I don't honestly see how I can last even another two or three years in my current environment, let alone any longer than that.
That is very dark, sorry I don't have advice, but try to look at the bright side. You probably got roof and internet, many people got nothing like that.
Sometimes I feel the same, since I'm in very similar situation but with no certs at all, hole in the roof, isolation, lots of friends dead, etc.
Nowadays, all I work on are my computers at home. On the dole, since I could've maybe fix broken computers before, but they're all out of reach now with all the virus panic.
But I don't complain much, at least I didn't starve and internet's not unplugged yet. Some other people I know have sunk much lower, hospitals and jails, that sort of thing.
 
Old 05-03-2021, 02:41 PM   #24
Ser Olmy
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I can't help but notice that you ask for advice, but then when you receive it you get defensive and argumentative if it challenges your views of yourself and your skillset.

You may want to ask yourself why you react in that manner.
 
Old 05-04-2021, 04:27 AM   #25
business_kid
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jsbjsb001 View Post
Gee, thanks for the encouragement, I'll just pull thousands of dollars I don't have out of the front of my pants

FYI, at least two of the certificates I mentioned before were in fact from what you call a "college" in the US of A for just one thing...

Looks like cynwulf was right; other than a few posts and advice within, this has been largely a waste of time. But at least I know why there's no point in asking questions like this here anymore...
College students in the Excited States do just exactly that and spend a decade paying back College loans. Ireland & England do better for their own, but not for foreign students.

Then if you get stuck in middle management, you're expected to work overtime (all the time) for free while you develop stress & ill health on their 'team building exercises.'

Fact: Today, you have to specialise to get a job. A degree is not necessary for all work. One of my sons doesn't want a degree: He built a round cleaning windows, which pays ok in €€/hour; he is a gifted musician, and does gigs; he can fix pcs; he has a qualification in natural medicine, which added years to my life, and has cured others (one at least from arthritis); And he can sell stuff, for which no qualification is needed. The gigs are the handiest in terms of €€/hour, but they are off atm because of Covid. He's largely parked the healing, because Ireland is just too far North for fresh fruit. But he can land anywhere in the world and do something.

My neighbour across the road trained as a chippie - a carpenter. He's started a business doing fitted kitchens, has staff and builds his own cupboards to size. They have more cars than people living in that house, none of them 5 years old. His own house is a 'showhouse' of sorts and he can show the latest in his range.

Another guy with no qualifications got a kitchen job in a restaurant. He learned how to cook the menu well, then opened his own restaurant doing similar. You need a 'can-do' attitude, not a negative one.

I wish you well. But you got good advice here, and don't write it off because it wasn't what you wanted to hear. The 'can-do' and 'really-want-to' comes across at interviews and tips the scales in your favour.
 
Old 05-04-2021, 04:41 AM   #26
hazel
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jsbjsb001 View Post

In any case, I'd really like to know how computers somehow have developed a concept of money, in that: a computer has no idea if anyone is paying you to write a program, administer a system, etc. Therefore, and for example, a variable is still a variable regardless of whether you are in paid employment or are at home writing something as a personal project and not for employment. The same as a skill is still a skill, it doesn't change just because someone happens to be paying you or not paying you for it, the same for knowledge and experience. So am I missing something there? (rhetorical question)
I told you already, it isn't really the money you earned or didn't earn that matters to potential employers. It's whether you have been able to hold down a job for a year or two. That involves things like coming in at the right time each morning and staying until closing time, getting on with staff colleagues, being able to carry out orders, being conscientious in your work and not needing constant supervision. That's why getting any kind of regular job at all, even if it's unpaid or unskilled, will serve you better than simply working with software at home.
 
Old 05-04-2021, 05:54 AM   #27
jsbjsb001
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elcore View Post
That is very dark, sorry I don't have advice, but try to look at the bright side. You probably got roof and internet, many people got nothing like that.
Sometimes I feel the same, since I'm in very similar situation but with no certs at all, hole in the roof, isolation, lots of friends dead, etc.
Nowadays, all I work on are my computers at home. On the dole, since I could've maybe fix broken computers before, but they're all out of reach now with all the virus panic.
But I don't complain much, at least I didn't starve and internet's not unplugged yet. Some other people I know have sunk much lower, hospitals and jails, that sort of thing.
I do agree things could be a lot worse (and I do know that for fact, as I've been homeless before myself), but and while I don't mean at all to sound like I'm belittling your situation and I hope it improves for you ASAP; I don't want to be on the dole forever, as it's just no life worth living. So yes, I can fully understand why you say what I said was "very dark"; that's how I'm feeling about it at the end of the day, so gotta be honest about that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ser Olmy View Post
I can't help but notice that you ask for advice, but then when you receive it you get defensive and argumentative if it challenges your views of yourself and your skillset.
I assume you are talking about my responses to rtmistler? If so... while I'm at least little perplexed about your comments, and not sure they are particularly fair; let me just clarify a few things, and I'll try and choose my words very carefully since I don't wish to be rude or disrespectful to you any more than I've wished to be rude or disrespectful to anyone else that's responded...

I fully acknowledged that I'm no "expert" when it comes to programming in post #5 with a snippet of what I've quoted below. I've also said in the same post that I don't disagree with what rtmistler said about certifications. I've also never made any claim to be a Linux "expert" (although I would say my Linux knowledge would be better than my programming knowledge and somewhat doubt you'd disagree with that). I also didn't dispute everything rtmistler said either. But I do feel that rtmistler has misunderstood at least some of my previous comments in other threads, and has therefore developed the view that I was "resisting" and/or "ignoring" his previous programming advice. I explained why he seems to have misunderstood, like for example what I explained in the second quote below;

Quote:
Originally Posted by jsbjsb001 View Post
...
The bottom line is: I was an absolute beginner when I posted my first programming threads here, and even now I couldn't reasonably be considered to be "an expert programmer" or even just a "seasoned programmer".
...
Quote:
Originally Posted by jsbjsb001 View Post
...
You must admit that when you are a novice at something and you're getting conflicting advice and suggestions, it can be very hard for someone who is a complete novice to know which advice and suggestions to take onboard. Therefore, that situation would likely only add to any confusion the person concerned already has, to the point that they are even more confused, rather than more clear about x, y or z by the end of it. Therefore they have to try and decide which advice/suggestions are most applicable to them at the given time and make a "judgement call" as it were. Can you really blame them for being more confused in that case, when they are still very much a novice to begin with? Seriously? I don't think it would be fair to blame them in that case, so I think you're being way too harsh in that case.

I do feel that you seem to think that I deliberately ignored your advice, seemingly on multiple occasions. I did no such thing, and all of that advice is still available in those same threads - I've even bookmarked some of those posts to re-review later on. However, I will freely admit I did try and prioritize which advice I took, and in which order I took it, and I needed to do that for the same reasons outlined in the dot point above. I also feel that you are ignoring any other research I've done outside of LQ, both before and afterwards. As well as the fact that your way of learning isn't everybody else's way of learning and different people learn in different ways. Like for example, some can more or less "just read about it" and maybe look at a few examples and "just get it", others however are, and once again, visual learners that learn best by being able to see it, practicing it, looking at diagrams, etc. You've got no idea how much I wish I was the former, but I'm not and there is nothing I can do about that, period.
...
Therefore at least some of rtmistler's advice in this thread has been based on a misunderstanding on his part from previous threads of mine, and as I said earlier in this thread; I tried to explain to him several times in previous threads of mine that his advice was ***not*** being ignored by myself. But I, and as I stated earlier in this thread, did need to prioritize which advice to take first and what to review later on. I explained the perfectly valid reasons for that as well.

The reason your comments are at least a little perplexing to me is that; wouldn't you be defending yourself if you felt someone has misunderstood your comments? Would you just shut up and say nothing if someone is giving you advice based on an misunderstanding(s) and/or misconception(s) on their part? (honest questions)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ser Olmy View Post
You may want to ask yourself why you react in that manner.
Well, I "react" in the manner I did because I don't appreciate being accused of things I've not done or said anymore than you'd appreciate the same. Again, I mean absolutely no disrespect to yourself, but yes, I will admit that nonsense does tick me off - particularly when I honestly try and avoid it as much as I can, and as imperfect as I am.

Quote:
Originally Posted by business_kid View Post
College students in the Excited States do just exactly that and spend a decade paying back College loans. Ireland & England do better for their own, but not for foreign students.
...
Well I am looking into a programming course at the moment but as you touch on, the cost is the main barrier right now. Although, I can't comment about how it is on other countries like Ireland though. In any case, I appreciate your interest and best wishes business_kid.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hazel View Post
I told you already, it isn't really the money you earned or didn't earn that matters to potential employers. It's whether you have been able to hold down a job for a year or two. That involves things like coming in at the right time each morning and staying until closing time, getting on with staff colleagues, being able to carry out orders, being conscientious in your work and not needing constant supervision. That's why getting any kind of regular job at all, even if it's unpaid or unskilled, will serve you better than simply working with software at home.
Yes Hazel, I already got your point there and didn't disagree with it anymore than I disagree with it now. My point was that: a "skill" is still a "skill" regardless of who you've worked for or haven't worked for. In other words, if you look up the definition of the word "skill" (not that you yourself would need to), it means "the ability to do something". So for example, if I wanted to install some Linux distro, it's still the same process regardless of who is paying me for, if anyone at all is paying me or not paying me to do it for that matter - I can still DO IT and have done it many times now regardless of whether I'm doing it in employment or not. Again, the process doesn't change, still the same regardless. That was the point I was making, I was not disputing what you said about the "money" side of it.

So yes, I hear you.
 
Old 05-04-2021, 12:34 PM   #28
cynwulf
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As a general rule, employers are generally self interested tossers. They are all about running a business and when they employ someone, the needs of the business and ensuring the face fits are the main priorities. In IT recruitment, as your average HR person has no IT skills, recruitment consultants are often used - and they will generally pull out an off the shelf profile for the ideal candidate. "Home skills" as some have mentioned here don't factor in this. The consultant will want to ensure that their services are used again - so a big part of the criteria will be professional experience and academic qualifications.

If you've been unemployed for quite a while, then you night want to consider an IT support role with a smaller company, where entry may be easier. This will invariably involve MS Windows however. At work you have to be OS agnostic, no employer is interested in FOSS idealism. I have spent the last 15 years working with Windows exclusively, despite my distaste for it.

If you can secure such a role, you can build on that - continuing learning software dev in your spare time.
 
Old 05-04-2021, 12:53 PM   #29
sundialsvcs
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Have you ever been on the receiving end of, say, "indeed.com?" I'll tell you that it's quite the experience. You receive hundreds of resumes – far more than you could ever hope to evaluate meaningfully – in less than an hour. You are now supposed to troll through every one of them to decide if any of them even remotely match what you said you were looking for. Nobody actually has that much time.

Some sites, like "careerbuilder," responded to this in an interesting way that only makes matters worse: you can "apply" to hundreds of jobs at once with a click of the mouse. In other words, it is "resume spam."

The OP writes a whole lot of text that mostly concerns ... himself. But, the key thing that you must remember about applying for any job is that the undertaking consists of: "selling." I suggest that you buy a copy of a little book that millions of others have bought: "The Little Red Book on Selling.". Read it cover to cover. Then, look again at your personal sales campaign, which is to "sell your valuable professional services." It will teach you how to evaluate your targets, and where to look for them. (Hint: "think local.") It will teach you how to tailor your sales-pitch and the initial "cold calling" process. Selling is an honorable profession but there are very few who are actually really good at it.

Last edited by sundialsvcs; 05-04-2021 at 12:54 PM.
 
Old 05-04-2021, 04:51 PM   #30
rtmistler
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Advice here is based on 35 years of experience. There are no ill wishes or intentions. Nor any concerns, opinions, or emotions about any former interactions.

After a certain point in this thread, the best I had, and continue to have is, "Best wishes with your endeavors". That's intended to be a polite way of saying I have no further advice.
 
  


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