In a catch 22 and not sure what to do
 

The purpose of this thread is to get some advice about how to get programming job, or failing that, an IT support/technican job (MUCH preferably Linux/Unix related rather than just some boring Windows related job on both counts). But first I'll explain my background and situation...

I've been interested in computers from a very young age, when most people here in Australia didn't even know what the internet was, let alone had it themselves. I grew up using MS-DOS and then Windows 3.0 through to XP (I have used higher versions on other people's computers), and even remember writing a website back in the early/mid 90's (I don't remember what the website was about, and it was just plain HTML code - no scripts of any kind) and even got paid for it too (I think I was still in primary school at the time - I do remember it was a money order they used to pay me for it). But basically there was some pretty horrible stuff that happened to me, without going into exact details, well, you can name a type of abuse and I can most probably say I've suffered it at some point in my life (physical, sexual, you name it), most of it as a child. I remember, and to cut a very long story short, I had to move out of "home" either just before I turned 18 or just before, because well, I'd be dead if I didn't - that's how bad it was. So for awhile after I moved out of "home" I was that messed up just trying to find a reason to even be alive was a struggle. That lasted for a number of years, and on and off too, to the point where even thinking about just trying to get a job, let alone be able to hold one down was virtually impossible - let alone getting, or holding down any "meaningful" job. It may sound funny, but I probably done more work as a kid than what I did in those years. Without telling my whole life story complete with every single detail, as that would take a lot more than just one forum post; I've had a lot of things happen that (I hope) most others would likely never have happen to them. Put it this way: if you knew every detail of I'm talking about there, you'd understand why I say that.

I kinda lost interest in computers when I was "lost" for a while there in those years after I moved out of "home". Nevertheless, around 2004 I went back to an "adult re-entry school" and was doing some courses there and it was actually one of the student counsellors there that suggested I do some IT related course. So I agreed to it, and whether it was that particular course or another one, it was being held in the same building as the school's network administrator's office is located in. He noticed that I had an interest in computers, and gave me a couple of CD's (yes CDs!) of what, from memory, was Ubuntu, and I think Kubuntu, and another Ubuntu knock-off as well (don't really remember exactly one it was though - maybe Xubuntu?). That was my first intro into Linux, as I didn't even know before then that Linux even existed - let alone anything about UNIX, etc. All I knew about/of was DOS, Windows and macOS and that was it. Then fast forward a few years, I joined this forum, and obviously have been using Linux ever since, moving to Linux exclusively sometime between 2010 and 2011. Although I had upgraded other computers, even as a kid, from memory, prior to building my first desktop PC in 2010/2011. And through coming here and learning even more (even stuff I haven't even tried to learn), and finally answering the questions I had ever since I was in primary school; "what actually happens behind the scenes that I can't see on the screen? How exactly would I write a program myself?", I've finally found the reason why I was interested computers. I realized that the reason I had those questions was because I like to know how things work. Therefore the answer; "well that's just how it works", just isn't satisfying enough to me, the morbid curiosity bugs me until I can find an answer to the question(s). Therefore I realized the answer to the question "what should I do for the rest of life?" was staring me in the face the whole time, ever since I was a young kid, but I just didn't see it for all of those years I was talking about above. But now I'm having to ask another question, well at least a couple of other questions to be precise; is it too late? Do I have any chance of getting out of this dump of a city I currently live in to have any hope at all for any kind future worth living? As quite honestly, I'd rather be dead than stay in this dump of a city for much longer, it is just way too depressing staying in my current environment. As far as I'm concerned, there wouldn't be any point in living without any kind of decent future. Mentally speaking, I don't honestly see how I can last even another two or three years in my current environment, let alone any longer than that.

I've tried doing a job just for the money at the end of it and it just didn't work out. Money alone just doesn't motivate me enough for it to be sustainable in the long run, as having interest in what I'm doing provides the meaning that is the only thing that does actually motivate me. Again, it's not about the money to me, I'd much rather do something that pays less that I actually have interest in, than do something I have zero interest in for more money - it's that simple. I've got over $1000 dollars in my savings account that I could withdraw and spend tomorrow if I wanted to, but I don't feel any need at all to spend it. I don't even really think about it, I hate going to shopping centers, the supermarket, etc, even when I do actually need to buy something. That's how little money means to me. I wouldn't have been able to learn even just the half of whatever I know about Linux if I had no interest it in, it's the same for employment, despite how much it might pay. Let alone all the stuff that's happened in later years to top it all off. If I had no interest in Linux or computers in general, I'd just use M$ Windows and put up with whatever BS M$ decides to throw at Windows users.

I was going to create a blog post advertising myself as being available for employment in the IT industry, either as a "junior" programmer or even IT support, but thought it was probably a good idea to get some advice first (I asked Jeremy if that would be ok and he said it was fine). I basically have no future where I currently live. You'd basically have a better chance of finding a needle in a haystack than finding pretty much any IT related employment where I live, as employers nearly always want someone who has at least two years paid IT experience. The long and short of it is: those same employers wouldn't care how much knowledge I have or haven't got, they would just skip my application in favor of someone else who can say they've got recent paid IT experience and I'd be rejected without even a phone interview - let alone would I get an in-person interview. If I were living in a bigger city here in Australia, like Sydney or Melbourne, then I might have a slightly better chance. But of course without employment, I don't have the money to up-root myself and move to a different city, so just moving to a different state, let alone another city isn't possible without employment. And not having your own transport and having to rely on a pissant public transport system only complicates things even further again. So I'm in a catch 22; I don't have the money to move, but I can't get any IT work unless I do move. It's as much for psychological reasons, as much as for employment related reasons that my only choice is to move (preferably and hopefully at least one day to another country altogether). So for both mental health and employment related reasons, it's just not going to be possible for me to stay in the city (or really the state and country) I currently live in for much longer.

Truth be known, even with all of the political and covid nonsense (both within and outside of LQ), covid related and other conspiracy theories/nonsense, covid related pro/anti vaxxer nonsense here, the recent influx of trolls to this site, this site remains one of the few sane places I have left to go to. But of course, now the iceing on the cake is, and because of covid, the [useless] Australian Government has closed the country's borders and I'm literally living in an open air prison. So now I may as well be living in a real prison, because other than the not having bars on the windows, I'm pretty much already there in every way imaginable.

My IT related qualifications and certifications:

• Certificate 2 in Information Technology
• Certificate 3 in Information Technology (Software Applications)
• A+ IT Support Technician
• Certified Help Desk Analyst

I do realize that I can't expect to start at the top, and I'd therefore have to start at the bottom and do an "entry-level" type job first - and I have no issues with that (as long as I'm learning something by the same token). In fact, that would be best in that; it would be good experience to have IMHO, rather than get thrown into the "deep end" straight off the bat. I'm willing to be flexible, as I don't mind doing IT support/technician type work at least as a start, but obviously would much prefer to get a start in doing programming for a living (and hopefully Linux related one day).

I'm sorry for the long post, but I tried to condense everything as much as I could while still [hopefully] explaining [enough of] my background and situation, and I couldn't really make it much shorter while still properly explaining my situation. I've edited the draft I made of this post several times now, that I've intended to post since last week.

So I guess my main questions are; what should I do given all that I've said above? What exactly can I do?

Thank you in advance.

PS: I'm not looking for uninformed opinions about mental illness, ad hominems, or similar nonsense, so you need not respond in that case, and I will just ignore any such posts. I'm looking for informed, honest and practical advice concerning my situation, not debates or pissing contests. So please, no nonsense or smartass responses, or similar nonsense - just the adults here need respond, thank you.

I don't recognize your certs and don't know what they are worth. My advice is think again.

You may find linux related Tech support (e.g. with VMware) but when they go, or fold, and/or you get very fed up, you can't switch easily and others may be relying on your income. If you know of such, send them a CV. You can get jobs writing software, but you need to learn loads of programming languages, past, present & most of all future. There's a thread on Programming langusges in General, iirc.

Everything is globalized. One of my kids mobile development lives in Spain, has a staff of ~15, of which three come into the office. His Android guy is in Turkey, his backend guy elsewhere, etc. Everything goes up on github, gets implemented on AWS servers, and he controls it and light fires under the appropriate posteriors over WhatsApp or zoom. He does have a few Spanish employees, but no Irish or Aussies. Guys from 1st world countries cost more to hire.

If you can program very well, and your code will be accepted into the kernel (Two Big Ifs) you will get the occasional job writing linux drivers for kernel stuff. Having spent a career in tech, it's not a kind place. Employers always want (and often get) folks with experience on the latest tech, but you become unemployable if you stay too long with old tech. My business took me into older hardware, it raised my kids, but it was always going to grind to a halt sometime - and it did. Electronics are now irreparable. Certainly component-level work is beyond any third party, which is what I used to do.

Here, in this country, you'd make more as a self-employed plumber. So think again.

I don't think your future lies in programming. I've seen some of your programming posts and they always gave me the impression of unsystematic thinking, trying to run before you can walk. On the other hand, you are certainly knowledgeable about Linux and very good at explaining things. So if you could get a job in maintenance or tech support, that would probably suit you very well. The problem is of course how to break into the field when you have no paid experience. Actually I don't think it's being paid (or not paid) that's the problem here. It's the fact that you haven't worked in this sphere on a regular basis for an organisation. All your experience has been in private study and employers don't value that very highly, not even if you have certificates.

One possibility that suggests itself to me would be to go through the voluntary sector. What causes lie close to your heart? What organisations are fighting for those causes? Find out and offer yourself as a volunteer. Many of these people are starved of good quality IT support and might be happy to acquire it without being fussy about your employment record. They might or might not pay you, but you would be able to say to a future commercial employer, "I worked for so-and-so for two years, I set up such and such systems for them, and this was what resulted from my work."

While I appreciate the time you've taken to respond, and while your post is relevant to my questions; I did explicitly make the point that how much money I would make isn't the issue, and is not important to me. I would not have continued learning C if I wanted to be a plumber or an electrician instead - I would have just given up well before now and not bothered even posting this thread in the first place (nor would I have posted most of my programming threads in the first place for that matter).

So I don't mean to be rude or anything, but your post wasn't very helpful.

While I appreciate the rest of your post, and it was rather helpful; those same programming related posts were clearly posted while I was still very much a complete novice when it came to programming. So without trying to be rude, what I've quoted of your post sounds like someone saying: "well, if you didn't completely understand everything the first time, then forget about it and just give up". To be honest, I'm actually a little surprised you would make such a comment, particularly the reason you've stated. So I don't think it's fair, particularly the reason you've given if I'm being frank about it.

Because while that's a good way to write someone off; at the end of the day there was a time when everybody here didn't know anything. The point is: you kept reading, trying things, practicing until things did make sense. I'm sure anyone who is honest who is employed as a programmer would be able to tell you that not everything they tried when they were still very much a novice at programming worked out. Again, the point is: they kept at it until they became proficient at programming, as clearly if they'd adopted the attitude of "I failed the first time I tried XXX, so I'm giving up", they would not be proficient at all. The bottom line is: I was an absolute beginner when I posted my first programming threads here, and even now I couldn't reasonably be considered to be "an expert programmer" or even just a "seasoned programmer".

Well, maybe I did, maybe I didn't, either way I was trying to explain my situation and background so people could offer the best advice they could that's specific to my situation. My OP was not a job application, so just because I've posted it here, it doesn't mean I would be saying all of that to an actual employer - and it doesn't sound like you are offering me a job, so what's it matter? (rhetorical question)

Could you expand on that, as that's a pretty broad statement without much context. Expertise in exactly what, programming? Linux? Experience? What?

Without getting in to a debate about certifications, I don't disagree with your statement. But I posted what I have to once again try and explain my situation.

While I don't disagree with the points you've made about learning and working through problems (and never have); I would like to make a few points of my own:

• You seem to imply that just because someone is an "entry level person" they must have little to no prior knowledge or skills. I wouldn't make that assumption (and I would hope any decent employer wouldn't either), as it could equally mean that they just simply lack paid experience and therefore have to start somewhere and that's it. So I would not necessarily agree with that statement of yours, as it really depends on the person concerned, not on what position they are in as far as the job they are getting paid to do goes. Like for example, they might just want less responsibility for example, but not limited to.
  
• You must admit that when you are a novice at something and you're getting conflicting advice and suggestions, it can be very hard for someone who is a complete novice to know which advice and suggestions to take onboard. Therefore, that situation would likely only add to any confusion the person concerned already has, to the point that they are even more confused, rather than more clear about x, y or z by the end of it. Therefore they have to try and decide which advice/suggestions are most applicable to them at the given time and make a "judgement call" as it were. Can you really blame them for being more confused in that case, when they are still very much a novice to begin with? Seriously? I don't think it would be fair to blame them in that case, so I think you're being way too harsh in that case.
  
• I do feel that you seem to think that I deliberately ignored your advice, seemingly on multiple occasions. I did no such thing, and all of that advice is still available in those same threads - I've even bookmarked some of those posts to re-review later on. However, I will freely admit I did try and prioritize which advice I took, and in which order I took it, and I needed to do that for the same reasons outlined in the dot point above. I also feel that you are ignoring any other research I've done outside of LQ, both before and afterwards. As well as the fact that your way of learning isn't everybody else's way of learning and different people learn in different ways. Like for example, some can more or less "just read about it" and maybe look at a few examples and "just get it", others however are, and once again, visual learners that learn best by being able to see it, practicing it, looking at diagrams, etc. You've got no idea how much I wish I was the former, but I'm not and there is nothing I can do about that, period.
  
  I think fundamentally you were responding from a design point of view rather than from a "conceptual" point of view and this has led to what seems to be a misunderstanding on your part in that; I was "ignoring" or "resisting" your advice. Which is just once again untrue. To try and explain what I'm saying there, and I'll quote another member who contacted me via a PM, who had also responded to at least one of my past programming threads without identifying them (out of respect to their privacy, as it was a private conversion), and since I can't think of a better way to say it:
  
  
  Quote:

  In the meantime keep plodding on, try and focus on thing at once. And, to counter rtmistler's point: don't worry about design for now. Without a good grasp of general programming concepts and the features of your particular programming language the reality is that you can't make good design decisions or differentiate between good and bad ones.

  Well, I'm sorry RT, but the above is very true, and they are very correct in what they are saying and I've found this out first hand myself when trying to understand certain things, that while didn't make much, if any sense the first time, make a lot of sense to me now. Since now that I understand, and for example, what a pointer actually is, it's much clearer to me why people use them. The point is: without understanding the concept of what "it" is, how to use "it"; it's impossible for me to understand anything else, so you could talk until you are blue in the face about design - it's useless unless the concepts that need to be employed themselves make sense to me.
  
  So again, and as I've said to you in my programming threads: I get what you are saying about design, I do, I really do. But what I quoted above from another member (who does programming for a living as well as you, I might add) is exactly the point I tried and failed to make to you in my programming threads. I hope you can now understand that I wasn't ignoring your previous programming advice at all. So I do think you are being particularly harsh because of you feeling I "ignored" and/or "resisted" your previous advice I have to say.

90% of getting a job is finding the right person. I was looking for a job in 2019 and am pretty old, so sent many, many resumes over many months and got a pretty thick skin over some of the comments I got back (not in writing, of course). You may be bothered by some of the comments here, but believe me, they're positive compared to some things you could experience.

You will get advice such as: be realistic, don't try to take on too much, etc. Ignore it. Try new things. Don't rule anything out. I ended up in a field that I have no experience in and am enjoying it. There's a niche out there where you can be happy.

I would not seek careers advice from the web. You will often get a typically Alan Sugar / Donald Trump style of response. Or you will get the "you can be anything you want to be" response. Neither are helpful...

I think hazel’s suggestion to do volunteer work is an excellent idea.

Valid points, duly noted. My point was that 'following your dream' and having a worthwhile career that you can work till you retire are two different things. The world of tech can be very cruel. Imagine the guys who just wrote OS/2 looking for a job… "OS what??":)

Based on the original statement, it would have been more ideal if you presented an overview of your skills that are applicable for the types of jobs you are considering.Most of them.

1. You haven't provided any overview of skills which indicate that you would be suitable to work as a programmer or in IT.
2. You haven't worked in any of these types of jobs, so you have no experience.
3. Recognized that you have some Linux expertise.

Prospective employers are going to look at your list of skills which you have, to determine if they feel they will want to interview you. They will have to go by your stated skill set since you have no significant formal training and no experience.

Suggest you review available job opportunities related to Linux, IT, and programming and determine if you have the skills to work in any of those jobs.

Not going to sugar coat it: People are correct, the technical job market can be very tough and demeaning.

Good answers were already given.
I have little to add:

First of all, most things mentioned here by you & others are not limited to the IT field.

You mentioned a few times that job ads demand at least 2 years of paid experience in IT - maybe you should break that down for yourself, and start with 2 years of paid experience, and then experience in IT?
And paid usually doesn't refer to the money, what it really means is that you are able to hold down a job and work in a professional environment. There's important non-IT aspects here, punctuality, social interaction...
I can see how all that would be important to a prospective employer, esp. since you're well over 30 and therefore over the usual age of beginners in that field.
So, get 2 years of paid work experience, and meanwhile, build your IT skills with evening school or voluntary work etc.
Always in a way that gives you proof.
Nobody is interested in "home" skills - as real as they might be - it always needs to be documented as actual training, or work in an actual company or other "real" work environment.
Generally I'd recommend to start with internship type of work and upgrade to vocational training, or the other way round, or both.
There's a magical point where you have to stop working for the experience only, and start working for money (in your field of interest), but I don't think you're there yet.
I'd also recommend to go to your unemployment agency and ask them about programs for long-term unemployed (assuming both exist in your country).

I stumbled into this (IT) when I was working shift work in an office and was tapped to do daily backups on graveyard shifts (so was an “operator”). That led to some troubleshooting of code, and eventually to a full-time coding job. I was 33 at the time. I’ve been a programmer/analyst since…for more than 40 years. (I’m not counting the work I did as a keypunch/PCAM operator13 years before that)
Again, internship or volunteer work would be a good place to start.

So what have we got...

1. Hope I find the right person who can put in a good word for me, or someone who can give me at least a chance to prove myself (which is what I assume smallpond meant in their post).
2. Don't bother asking for any career advice on the internet.
3. Another vote for doing volunteer work (aren't I already doing that by helping people with their technical problems here?).
4. Another vote for the world of tech/technical job market can be "very cruel/tough".
5. Apparently "I'm not suitable to work as a programmer or in IT" and don't have much skills (although I apparently have "some Linux expertise"... yay! :rolleyes:).
6. Apparently unless you have paid IT/worked for some company, you DON'T have any experience.
7. Find some completely unrelated job and "hope" they need you to do some IT work, and then give you an actual IT job.

Well...

1. If I knew the "right" person to go to; I'd probably already have an IT job and therefore probably wouldn't have even started this thread to begin with - so that doesn't seem like an option that's available to me.
2. Can really see why cynwulf says that...
3. Apart from the fact I'm already doing that by helping others here; Say I find somewhere that needs "IT support" that they aren't willing/can't actually pay anyone for; I'm supposed to do that for god only knows how long and "hope" that either they offer me a paid position or some mysterious IT employer is going to come along, or I magically find one somewhere, who is going to be the "white knight" who is going to "rescue" me and give me an IT job? Well for one thing, I'm not getting any younger, and I haven't got god only knows how long to wait. Not to mention the fact that; the sort of employment there actually is where I am isn't even worth getting out of bed for, let alone applying for, and even if I did apply for it, well put it this way: the other 100+ others that have also applied would likely be shortlisted way before I would be. So that doesn't seem like much of an option for me either.
4. Well, it looks like it ain't just the IT world that we can say the same for...
5. Well it looks like I'm no use to this forum then :rolleyes: So I guess I'd better find a nice deep hole to die in then... oh, that's right, I'm already living in a shithole of a city, so at least the first part's already done... just gotta get the second part done now...
6. Isn't helping others with their technical problems, and/or answering other people's technical questions "experience" ? It's, and once again, not as if I'm getting any younger here for one thing. Not to mention the fact I haven't got the money to move house even within the same state, let alone to a far more expensive city...
7. Again, not getting any younger here, and don't have god only knows how long to wait for some "white knight" to come along...

Well, and while I do honestly thank you guys for taking the time to respond: I guess I'm totally fucked then and it was and has been a complete waste of time and effort learning anything about IT, let alone making any effort at all. Really sorry guys, but mentally speaking, and as I said in my OP, it's not going to be mentally possible for me to remain living in the city or state I currently live in. And moving costs money, not to mention paying rent costs money, without employment, I don't have money - and some pissant minimum wage job nobody else wants to do isn't going to cut it either. But, and once again, there simply are no decent jobs where I live - hence my "catch 22".

So it seems I'm just better off dead by the looks of it... I truly don't know why I even bother trying anything or making any effort... I truly don't. Clearly it's just utterly pointless...

Permission to speak freely?

First of all, nobody said you should be waiting for somebody to rescue you, quite the opposite!
You should become proactive in this matter.

You say "this is an LQ thread, not a job interview" but the way you speak betrays your attitude, and while employers aren't psychologists they are trained to pick up on such things, and I think you are being way too self-centered and negative here.

Surprisingly negative, bordering on something I'd call depressed.

Is there an unemployment agency? You should go ask for help. They know about people who get depressed because they can't get work.
They have programmes to work around that.

And here's a positive thought:
The thing with finding a job, or a house, or hitchhiking, is that statistics don't work: it doesn't matter if your chances are statistically low - it can take an hour or a year, but you only need one in the end.

What I said - "home skills" count for nothing, however real they may be.
And an internship is not exactly the same as volunteer work - the first implies a vested interest in a certain vocation, the latter implies altruism.
And as I said earlier, I think you should - for now at least - separate "paid experience" and "IT experience".

Agreed. IT is rough. Hardware is even rougher. Several relatives are in IT. Like one who

• Got a Computer Science Degree.
• Got a Masters in Music & Media Studies.
• Still couldn't get a job. But he saw an opening, so
• He borrowed cash, bought a Mac, an iphone, and a software package, and started trying to learn the three of them and put up some games in the App Store
• 3 months later, he landed a job with jokers, led by a swindler on the basis of his games. He took it.
• 5 years and 3 jobs later he went out as a subcontractor, working for a daily rate. He had narrowly avoided a breakdown. But by this stage, he could program and was fluent in about 10-12 programming languages.

My career in tech was over by the time I was 40, but I went out on my own with an idea I thought would not work. I was right - it didn't long term; but along the way, I took a side turn, and THAT worked and gave me another 17 years in business.

If you haven't experience & want to program, get experience - write a project. Nobody wants the Sorcerer's Apprentice.

This has to do with any job, any situation.

Regardless as to whether you can do these two jobs, if you do not do for yourself, no one is.

You're on the internet, you have time to be on this site. You have time and opportunity to look for a job.

Ondoho seems quite right about home skills. My take is that few employers give much of a hoot about time spent online providing free advice. With the exceptions that you're not using their systems, not doing it during work hours, and not associating them with anything unsavory.

What's any potential employer going to think when they see rants and swears? We're you really planning to cite your account as a reference?

Scasey's story is great.

Maybe I'm incorrect, but based on the time frame of 40 years, they entered the workforce late 70's early 80's. A few years ahead of me.

Well I got a college degree. Many people a few years older than me did not. Why? Those really were the days you could do that. Further, CS and IT were in their infancy. You could barely get a CS degree in the 70's. Their path is very much how careers went for people back then.

Today? I bet you'd be very hard pressed to find a job posting in programming or IT that doesn't say "B.S. degree required, M.S. preferred"

That's my experience.

If you're older, never going to go to college, suggest you seek a different career.

I don't believe I've said otherwise, nor said or implied you are wrong about that.

I wasn't asking anyone else to apply for jobs for me. I was asking for practical advice, and I've not said anything about not receiving it either. So not really sure what you're getting at there...

Right, but I've already explained the job situation where I live too.

While I resisted doing it for a long time, ondoho is now on my ignore list (which they were added to well before I posted this thread), since I was ignoring them since coming back to the forum anyway - so why not "make it official" as it were, so I did and added them to it. Therefore there would be little point in having them on my ignore list if I wanted to read their posts, therefore I haven't read their posts and have no intention to either - much less respond to them in any way. Although I will admit that I should have listened to other members before and put them on my ignore list a long time ago now, so I'll admit that.

In any case, I'd really like to know how computers somehow have developed a concept of money, in that: a computer has no idea if anyone is paying you to write a program, administer a system, etc. Therefore, and for example, a variable is still a variable regardless of whether you are in paid employment or are at home writing something as a personal project and not for employment. The same as a skill is still a skill, it doesn't change just because someone happens to be paying you or not paying you for it, the same for knowledge and experience. So am I missing something there? (rhetorical question)

And no, I wouldn't think it would be a good idea to be watching porn on a work computer, particularly since most places audit their systems and therefore have records of what users have done. I've heard of places keeping records of users activities for at least the last 6 months. So no, wouldn't want to be the "new guy" who gets busted for watching porn at work.

Well I guess it depends on the employer, but that said... it wasn't directed at anyone here, nor was it directed at the site, any particular employer, or any business. So not sure I'd want to work for someone who does not pay any attention to the context in which things are said or done. And you really think that there isn't plenty of employers out there that swear themselves ? Well you probably don't want to watch Gordon Ramsay in that case...

In any case, and as I said before, this thread isn't meant to be a job application and I doubt most employers would even have any interest in it, nor much else of what's posted in this particular forum (and who could blame them?). This thread is also not a technical thread (which is why I posted it in the General forum in the first place).

And PS: I wasn't ranting, I was summing up the responses and replying to them in general. Or do you consider anything you don't agree with or like as a "rant"? (rhetorical question)

Entered the workforce in the mid 60s, actually. IT was late 70s, again not counting PCAM keypunch and operations.
I also have a BA…in Speech of all things…I like to say I have a BA in BS :) And yes, once I started working as a programmer the positions all required a degree…’tho back then, as you say, they didn’t care what discipline the degree was in.

Started with tty model 28 myself :)

@jsbjsb001,

Best wishes with your endeavors.

Gee, thanks for the encouragement, I'll just pull thousands of dollars I don't have out of the front of my pants :rolleyes:

FYI, at least two of the certificates I mentioned before were in fact from what you call a "college" in the US of A for just one thing...

Looks like cynwulf was right; other than a few posts and advice within, this has been largely a waste of time. But at least I know why there's no point in asking questions like this here anymore...

That is very dark, sorry I don't have advice, but try to look at the bright side. You probably got roof and internet, many people got nothing like that.
Sometimes I feel the same, since I'm in very similar situation but with no certs at all, hole in the roof, isolation, lots of friends dead, etc.
Nowadays, all I work on are my computers at home. On the dole, since I could've maybe fix broken computers before, but they're all out of reach now with all the virus panic.
But I don't complain much, at least I didn't starve and internet's not unplugged yet. Some other people I know have sunk much lower, hospitals and jails, that sort of thing.

I can't help but notice that you ask for advice, but then when you receive it you get defensive and argumentative if it challenges your views of yourself and your skillset.

You may want to ask yourself why you react in that manner.

College students in the Excited States do just exactly that and spend a decade paying back College loans. Ireland & England do better for their own, but not for foreign students.

Then if you get stuck in middle management, you're expected to work overtime (all the time) for free while you develop stress & ill health on their 'team building exercises.'

Fact: Today, you have to specialise to get a job. A degree is not necessary for all work. One of my sons doesn't want a degree: He built a round cleaning windows, which pays ok in €€/hour; he is a gifted musician, and does gigs; he can fix pcs; he has a qualification in natural medicine, which added years to my life, and has cured others (one at least from arthritis); And he can sell stuff, for which no qualification is needed. The gigs are the handiest in terms of €€/hour, but they are off atm because of Covid. He's largely parked the healing, because Ireland is just too far North for fresh fruit. But he can land anywhere in the world and do something.

My neighbour across the road trained as a chippie - a carpenter. He's started a business doing fitted kitchens, has staff and builds his own cupboards to size. They have more cars than people living in that house, none of them 5 years old. His own house is a 'showhouse' of sorts and he can show the latest in his range.

Another guy with no qualifications got a kitchen job in a restaurant. He learned how to cook the menu well, then opened his own restaurant doing similar. You need a 'can-do' attitude, not a negative one.

I wish you well. But you got good advice here, and don't write it off because it wasn't what you wanted to hear. The 'can-do' and 'really-want-to' comes across at interviews and tips the scales in your favour.

I told you already, it isn't really the money you earned or didn't earn that matters to potential employers. It's whether you have been able to hold down a job for a year or two. That involves things like coming in at the right time each morning and staying until closing time, getting on with staff colleagues, being able to carry out orders, being conscientious in your work and not needing constant supervision. That's why getting any kind of regular job at all, even if it's unpaid or unskilled, will serve you better than simply working with software at home.

I do agree things could be a lot worse (and I do know that for fact, as I've been homeless before myself), but and while I don't mean at all to sound like I'm belittling your situation and I hope it improves for you ASAP; I don't want to be on the dole forever, as it's just no life worth living. So yes, I can fully understand why you say what I said was "very dark"; that's how I'm feeling about it at the end of the day, so gotta be honest about that.

I assume you are talking about my responses to rtmistler? If so... while I'm at least little perplexed about your comments, and not sure they are particularly fair; let me just clarify a few things, and I'll try and choose my words very carefully since I don't wish to be rude or disrespectful to you any more than I've wished to be rude or disrespectful to anyone else that's responded...

I fully acknowledged that I'm no "expert" when it comes to programming in post #5 with a snippet of what I've quoted below. I've also said in the same post that I don't disagree with what rtmistler said about certifications. I've also never made any claim to be a Linux "expert" (although I would say my Linux knowledge would be better than my programming knowledge and somewhat doubt you'd disagree with that). I also didn't dispute everything rtmistler said either. But I do feel that rtmistler has misunderstood at least some of my previous comments in other threads, and has therefore developed the view that I was "resisting" and/or "ignoring" his previous programming advice. I explained why he seems to have misunderstood, like for example what I explained in the second quote below;

Therefore at least some of rtmistler's advice in this thread has been based on a misunderstanding on his part from previous threads of mine, and as I said earlier in this thread; I tried to explain to him several times in previous threads of mine that his advice was ***not*** being ignored by myself. But I, and as I stated earlier in this thread, did need to prioritize which advice to take first and what to review later on. I explained the perfectly valid reasons for that as well.

The reason your comments are at least a little perplexing to me is that; wouldn't you be defending yourself if you felt someone has misunderstood your comments? Would you just shut up and say nothing if someone is giving you advice based on an misunderstanding(s) and/or misconception(s) on their part? (honest questions)

Well, I "react" in the manner I did because I don't appreciate being accused of things I've not done or said anymore than you'd appreciate the same. Again, I mean absolutely no disrespect to yourself, but yes, I will admit that nonsense does tick me off - particularly when I honestly try and avoid it as much as I can, and as imperfect as I am.

Well I am looking into a programming course at the moment but as you touch on, the cost is the main barrier right now. Although, I can't comment about how it is on other countries like Ireland though. In any case, I appreciate your interest and best wishes business_kid. :)

Yes Hazel, I already got your point there and didn't disagree with it anymore than I disagree with it now. My point was that: a "skill" is still a "skill" regardless of who you've worked for or haven't worked for. In other words, if you look up the definition of the word "skill" (not that you yourself would need to), it means "the ability to do something". So for example, if I wanted to install some Linux distro, it's still the same process regardless of who is paying me for, if anyone at all is paying me or not paying me to do it for that matter - I can still DO IT and have done it many times now regardless of whether I'm doing it in employment or not. Again, the process doesn't change, still the same regardless. That was the point I was making, I was not disputing what you said about the "money" side of it.

So yes, I hear you.

As a general rule, employers are generally self interested tossers. They are all about running a business and when they employ someone, the needs of the business and ensuring the face fits are the main priorities. In IT recruitment, as your average HR person has no IT skills, recruitment consultants are often used - and they will generally pull out an off the shelf profile for the ideal candidate. "Home skills" as some have mentioned here don't factor in this. The consultant will want to ensure that their services are used again - so a big part of the criteria will be professional experience and academic qualifications.

If you've been unemployed for quite a while, then you night want to consider an IT support role with a smaller company, where entry may be easier. This will invariably involve MS Windows however. At work you have to be OS agnostic, no employer is interested in FOSS idealism. I have spent the last 15 years working with Windows exclusively, despite my distaste for it.

If you can secure such a role, you can build on that - continuing learning software dev in your spare time.

Have you ever been on the receiving end of, say, "indeed.com?" I'll tell you that it's quite the experience. You receive hundreds of resumes – far more than you could ever hope to evaluate meaningfully – in less than an hour. You are now supposed to troll through every one of them to decide if any of them even remotely match what you said you were looking for. Nobody actually has that much time.

Some sites, like "careerbuilder," responded to this in an interesting way that only makes matters worse: you can "apply" to hundreds of jobs at once with a click of the mouse. In other words, it is "resume spam."

The OP writes a whole lot of text that mostly concerns ... himself. But, the key thing that you must remember about applying for any job is that the undertaking consists of: "selling." I suggest that you buy a copy of a little book that millions of others have bought: "The Little Red Book on Selling.". Read it cover to cover. Then, look again at your personal sales campaign, which is to "sell your valuable professional services." It will teach you how to evaluate your targets, and where to look for them. (Hint: "think local.") It will teach you how to tailor your sales-pitch and the initial "cold calling" process. Selling is an honorable profession but there are very few who are actually really good at it.

Advice here is based on 35 years of experience. There are no ill wishes or intentions. Nor any concerns, opinions, or emotions about any former interactions.

After a certain point in this thread, the best I had, and continue to have is, "Best wishes with your endeavors". That's intended to be a polite way of saying I have no further advice.

I have learned that jobs require at least 2 sets of skills:

• a general skill set that is common to any job
• specialised skills (what you are calling "skill")

With all due respect, I think you are concentrating too much on the second part, when really you should be concentrating on the first. Which is what I, hazel, and a few others already said here.


No, you're supposed to trawl through them. Help, the WWW is destroying language...

Like I was saying before, while I'd prefer to work with Linux, if Windows is the only option for IT related employment then it is what it is. So not much I can do about that in that case. In any case, the chances of finding an IT job working with Linux where I live is next to none anyway - IT support or developer jobs. So I'd have no choice but to be open to that in that case.

Thanks for your advice cynwulf.

Well who else was I supposed to talk about sundialsvcs? Yourself? Well you're no stranger to posting a lot more than just the one or two liner yourself remember, so not sure I'd be criticizing others too much for doing the same if I were you.

I've already said that it isn't just about the employment side of things, it's also about the need for a new environment - not sure how many times I need to say it...

I have no doubt about your experience or intentions, if I did, I wouldn't even bother responding to you. Neither of those things is the issue here, so I'm quite happy to take your word for both of those things (and I don't see what point there would be on your part to lie about any of that). So I believe you.

Well, clearly you were in fact talking about my past programming threads, and clearly did directly assert that I "resisted" and/or "ignored" your advice for one. And clearly at least some of your advice was in fact based on past interactions in those same threads (that you clearly did in fact respond to) - so let's be real here.

Once again, and as I said before, I had to prioritize which advice to took first, and you're also forgetting that there was a reason why the concepts took longer than I would have liked to learn. You know as well as I do I had the added complication of having to improve my mathematical skills before the concepts really started to make sense (which is another reason why I don't agree your comments about me "resisting" advice were fair). So to that end, both yourself and particularly astrogeek quite correctly said that I needed to improve my mathematical skills in order to be able to get a proper handle on the underlying concepts. Now I will freely admit (because it's true) that at least in the very beginning I was hoping that I could just learn the concepts and then move on to design that you were talking about. But clearly that wasn't going to work, I realized this and with some help privately started to try and improve my mathematical skills to make things easier. And you know what? Once I took that advice to improve my mathematical skills, things did not only become far clearer, but also far easier to learn. The point? If I didn't take the advice about improving my mathematical skills, I would *not* have been able to learn what I've learnt since about the concepts, as it would *not* have been possible. And I have both yourself and particularly astrogeek to thank for not only recognizing that, but therefore by extension suggesting that to me, as that's directly lead to understanding certain things I didn't understand before. I'm not trying to flatter you either, I'm serious, and that's the truth. It's the same point about understanding the underlying concepts and features, *before* I could start getting a handle on the design side of things. So now that I AM in a much better position to focus on the design side of things, I CAN have a far better chance at understanding your design related advice. Whereas before, I simply was *not* in a position where I could do that when I was still somewhat unclear about the underlying concepts - I'm *not* just making this up RT. Understand now? Cool?

I must also say that you seem to think because someone learns in a different way to you that they must be "ignoring" advice, and/or have an inability to learn. With all respect, I think you are very wrong about that, in fact, I know you are.

Well like I said above, it's not your intentions that is the issue here, it's the way you framed your posts and comments. Now before I get into that, I'm not asking you to "sugar coat" anything. As you know, I'm as direct as anyone at LQ is, regardless of who it is I'm talking to, you know that as well as I do. So I can hardly complain about someone else being direct and to the point, and since I try my very best *not* to be a hypocrite, I'm not going to complain about anyone else being direct. So that's fine, be my guest, not the issue either.

The issue is, when you make comments like the following:

...most people I know would interpret that as meaning:

- Well clearly you ignore advice given.
- Clearly you're not able to learn.
- You don't have any skills or experience whatsoever of any kind.
- You don't have a CS degree.
- You are therefore not suitable for any kind of employment in the IT industry.
- Therefore just forget about it and go and pick fruit or some other meaningless, menial, minimum wage job that nobody else wants to do and be happy.
- Best of luck, because you're going to need it!

...that's pretty much how your comments would likely read to most people I know, that's the issue, regardless of your intentions. The point is: and if I may quote cynwulf here, Alan Sugar/Donald Trump style responses aren't anymore helpful than giving someone false hope that "they can do anything!". Not to mention that it's just not true, they are the issues RT, not your experience or intentions.

You fill in an awful lot of gaps with very incorrect assumptions.

Let's concentrate the mind, jsbjsb001

Are you working right now? If not, are you studying or what?

Forget everything, you have to have a paycheck coming in by July or you'll be fired out on the street: what job would you go for and why?

"You're defensive, jsbjsb001 ..." But who, or what, are you defending against?

You're quite going out of your way to "prove your point." But, what exact point are you trying to prove, and for what purpose?

To put it another way – "why, exactly, have you now approached this online community?" What, specifically, do you now ask of us, and what, specifically, can we do for you?

Or, to put a slightly broader frame on it: what sort of work experience do you have at all?
That's the elephant in the room, isn't it.

I haven't disputed everything you've said, nor have I said that everything you've said is somehow wrong. I've even agreed with at least some of what you've said. It's your characterization of my past programming threads in particular (among a couple of other things) that is the issue here, not your employment or other experience or intentions. I've once again said that I don't doubt either of those things on your part - I'm sure your intentions are "pure" as it were. I'm sure you have/are worked/working as a programmer, which is arguably a job in the IT industry, is it not? So not sure why you are reacting like I've somehow said everything you've said is wrong or some such. It's the assumptions on your part that are causing my responses in regards to some of your characterizations of me, whatever skills and/or qualifications I have or supposedly need.

Let me tell you a true story; some years ago now I applied for one of the rare IT support jobs there is where I live. I even got a face to face interview with the employer, but ultimately didn't get the job. In retrospect and looking back on it now, I can see why I didn't get the job; I wasn't ready for that sort of job at the time, the employer obviously saw this as well. I don't blame the employer for not giving me the job, as easy as that would be for me to do. They were right in fairness to them, and in at least some ways I'm kinda glad they did reject me. They knew I didn't have a CS degree or anything even remotely similar before they asked me to meet them for an interview, as I don't have any degrees on my resume because I don't have any degrees of any kind to my name. They also flat out said to me, "I'm not going hire someone just because they have certifications, I've done that before and they couldn't do the job. I want someone who can think outside the box." The point? That's why I wasn't ready for it at the time. That's also why I don't disagree with you about certifications, and will even add to what you said, in that: it's all well and good looking good on paper, but if you don't have the skills to do the job; what's the point in them hiring you or even applying for it in the first place? So yes, I do agree with you about that. And again, I'm not making that story up either - it really did happen.

So how am I saying everything you've said is wrong?

No, not currently working. Well as I've said earlier on in this thread and one of my previous programming threads; I am looking at doing a programming course, but once again, it's the cost of it that's the issue. Some of the total cost is covered by the government's JobTrainer funding, but I still have to pay the rest of the cost myself, but obviously don't have the money to fully cover the difference. So not sure that's going to happen.

Well obviously if I was already working it would be easier to find another job, particularly if I didn't care what job it was.

Like I said before, I've been there and done that in terms of doing a job just for the money that I had zero interest in, it didn't last for very long as I just couldn't do it mentally - even if it did mean going on the dole by quitting it. And quite honestly, when you get used to having no money, you just get used to it - it's hard to miss what you don't have anyway if you will. Don't get me wrong, it's no life (which is why people that call it a "lifestyle" clearly have never been on the dole) and you can only really survive and that's it.

I've already explained why I've said what I've said in regards to what you are calling "defensive". I'm not going to keep explaining it.

No, I'm not trying to prove any point, but then again, not really sure what you mean by that anyway I will admit.

Because your average forum exists where people asking questions and/or post threads for members of said forum to discuss. Example? Here we are...

jsbjsb001, we have a saying over here, beloved by Irish tradesmen about people who have the theory, but not the practise.
Get doing something - anything. It's much easier to leverage wrong experience than to convince folks that you're a worker. ATM you're an unknown. Get doing something. My son did 3 years in Pizza hut by nights while he went through College. After sticking that for 3 years he could get any waiter's job he wanted, and he could (and did) leverage that experience to show he was a worker.

You mentioned that you went on an IT interview some years ago. That's great, and it is exposure to a hiring manager where you got to see what their needs for the job are, as well as learned that they wanted you to have some level of experience.

From that point, my best recommendation would be to figure out if there's any way where you can attain experience which an employer like this would recognize.

Do you think there are any opportunities to volunteer somewhere, where you could help to set-up or maintain systems, servers, and networks? Preferably with someone senior there who can (a) give you some on the job training, and (b) give you a recommendation which you can use the next time you're able to get a job opportunity?

Ideally, you get to a point where you gain an interview, and the persons you've been helping are fine with providing references. I've seen situations, not necessarily in IT, but where a person accepts a volunteer role so they can gain experience and knowledge, they get an interview for a real job, and their mentor gives a great recommendation, along with one of the potentially nicest things they could say, "Sure you should hire them! That bums me out, because I'll be losing them! But, I can't pay them and they really deserve better!"

To me, that's where you want to be. How you get there is maybe these ideas, or maybe some other method. Just a suggestion.

I don't know where you live, but according to your OP, it must be NOWHERE (the Outback of Australia !). Make it NOW HERE instead.
In any bad situations we can make good things out of it.
Who knows ? Maybe one day, if I still live up to that day, you can become a Head Security for ADF, a Zen Master ...
Good luck and most important, don't give up.

jsbjsb001, I've never worked in IT or any computer related field or made any money whatsoever from anything computer related I've done online or offline. The first computer I ever laid fingertips to was an AppleII in '93 on a Friday afternoon when I showed up on a new job as a Weekend House Parent at a Group Home for high functioning Developmentally Disabled Individuals.

I was a 10th Grade High School Dropout, got my GED when I was 32 and wasn't recognized as a QMRP, Qualified Mental Retardation Professional, in Illinois, as in Missouri. The "Qualified" meaning so much of my time on the job and training received was counted as seat time.

I've seen and done things a college grad has at best read about. Can walk into any situation and take control at some point where they would be lost as what to do and eaten alive with skills that can make me a counselors worst nightmare. Everybody else there were snooty college grads or in college, the Q handed me a floppy in an offhand way like "Good luck with that". I would have rather blown my head off on the spot than tell her I had never touched a computer in my life.

By Monday morning I owned it, had looked at the data on all their floppy disks and printed out what I wanted. A love poem a girl had written to the guy who took over for me from 10pm-6am to humiliate him. When they upgraded to newer one I picked it up, set it up and had to show them how to boot it up by flipping the floppy during the boot process. Now I teach other people to use FreeBSD.

The best job I ever had was when I quit the Mental Health field for a time when I was 21 to become a Union Laborer at an iron foundry working around 2300F degree molten iron swinging a sledge hammer or scooping sand all night long. I've been a diecaster working with molten aluminum, magnesium and zinc. Went back into Mental Health with most of my time spent in Management positions after working my way up the Ladder of Success. Only to find I liked the climb, but it sucked for the most part once I got up there. That's where all the dirt is. You just can't see it from ground level.

I finished off my Time of Toil as a landscaper working for a guy who had a contract to mow all the Army Corp. of Engineers land on each side of the Mississippi River between Saverton, MO. and East Alton, IL., were they found an average of one dead body a week in the area I mowed. At Union Scale wage from 6am to greet the dawn until 10pm that night using headlights to see. That was a good job with all the sunshine and exercise you could handle.

I understand your reasoning for posting about your past history and don't fault you. Please consider my advise to apply for Social Security Disability, and find a lawyer who will take your case on Consignment (if you don't get paid he doesn't get paid) before the first time you apply and have him help you out doing it. That is most important.

The System is there for a reason. Make it work for you and life will be much better for you. I did or I wouldn't be giving you this advise.

While maybe a couple of members responses have been helpful (although a lot of them I could have, and did, thought/think of myself) both before and since my last reply, and as much as I could respond to the replies made since my last post; I really don't have the mental energy to anymore.

Either way, it seems I asked the wrong question (and yes, my own fault for that one), since had I asked "can people give me a list of reasons as to why it seems utterly pointless to even ask such a question here, let alone why is it pointless in even trying? And why am I totally screwed?"... most of the replies would have been spot on.

In any case, I'm done with this thread now as it's pointless to continue with it...

In your first post you asked for advice on how to start a career in IT, either programming or support/operations. You provided the following information:

1. You have a keen interest in computers
2. You have almost no formal qualifications
3. You have limited skills
4. You have no relevant job experience
5. You live in a rural area with few opportunities, and are considering moving to another place
6. Mentally, you're not in the best place right now

The short answer is:

• Figure out whether you'd like to work with software development, support or operations (they require very different skillsets)
• Acquire some relevant skills that can be documented
• Get some low-level job experience while you're working on your skills (anything is better than nothing)
• Create a good-looking CV
• Turn up at job interviews well-prepared and with a positive attitude (which you may have to fake, but that's OK)

Can you do this? Almost certainly.

Are your current plans/ambitions grounded in reality? I'd say almost certainly not, but that's OK. We all have to reorient ourselves a few times during the course of our lives.

I've worked in IT for almost 30 years. I've been the department head for a consulting business, and I've been on hiring committees on numerous other occasions. I've read more job applications and CVs than I care to remember, and what it all comes down to is perfectly encapsulated by this short exchange from the movie "Aliens":The applicant had to show me his or her skills/credentials. If I couldn't tell from the application or CV that this person was clearly qualified for the job, I just wouldn't consider that candidate at all.

Get some experience and some marketable skills, and you'll be fine. But if you focus on your past and insist that experienced IT people are all wrong and just don't understand your supposedly very unique circumstances, you won't be.

Full disclosure, I do not live in Australia, and never been. So, no idea on cost of living etc from where you are now to Sydney or Melbourne.
- You prefer Linux over Windows.
- You want to move but do not have enough money to simply move without job lined up?

I did a search for "remote it support jobs in Australia": https://au.indeed.com/Remote-Technical-Support-jobs

So, personally - I would apply to some of the jobs available. I would also focus on remote jobs because that way, once I have income coming in, that would help with moving to another city.

Yes, initially with this method you may have to settle with Windows job, but as you said, Melbourne/Sydney more IT jobs are available, so after moving you can switch jobs - and by that time you will also gain experience that you can put on resume.

On personal note: Sorry to hear that you had to go thru some rough things in your life - my well wishes to you for bright and better future!