In a catch 22 and not sure what to do
 

The purpose of this thread is to get some advice about how to get programming job, or failing that, an IT support/technican job (MUCH preferably Linux/Unix related rather than just some boring Windows related job on both counts). But first I'll explain my background and situation...

I've been interested in computers from a very young age, when most people here in Australia didn't even know what the internet was, let alone had it themselves. I grew up using MS-DOS and then Windows 3.0 through to XP (I have used higher versions on other people's computers), and even remember writing a website back in the early/mid 90's (I don't remember what the website was about, and it was just plain HTML code - no scripts of any kind) and even got paid for it too (I think I was still in primary school at the time - I do remember it was a money order they used to pay me for it). But basically there was some pretty horrible stuff that happened to me, without going into exact details, well, you can name a type of abuse and I can most probably say I've suffered it at some point in my life (physical, sexual, you name it), most of it as a child. I remember, and to cut a very long story short, I had to move out of "home" either just before I turned 18 or just before, because well, I'd be dead if I didn't - that's how bad it was. So for awhile after I moved out of "home" I was that messed up just trying to find a reason to even be alive was a struggle. That lasted for a number of years, and on and off too, to the point where even thinking about just trying to get a job, let alone be able to hold one down was virtually impossible - let alone getting, or holding down any "meaningful" job. It may sound funny, but I probably done more work as a kid than what I did in those years. Without telling my whole life story complete with every single detail, as that would take a lot more than just one forum post; I've had a lot of things happen that (I hope) most others would likely never have happen to them. Put it this way: if you knew every detail of I'm talking about there, you'd understand why I say that.

I kinda lost interest in computers when I was "lost" for a while there in those years after I moved out of "home". Nevertheless, around 2004 I went back to an "adult re-entry school" and was doing some courses there and it was actually one of the student counsellors there that suggested I do some IT related course. So I agreed to it, and whether it was that particular course or another one, it was being held in the same building as the school's network administrator's office is located in. He noticed that I had an interest in computers, and gave me a couple of CD's (yes CDs!) of what, from memory, was Ubuntu, and I think Kubuntu, and another Ubuntu knock-off as well (don't really remember exactly one it was though - maybe Xubuntu?). That was my first intro into Linux, as I didn't even know before then that Linux even existed - let alone anything about UNIX, etc. All I knew about/of was DOS, Windows and macOS and that was it. Then fast forward a few years, I joined this forum, and obviously have been using Linux ever since, moving to Linux exclusively sometime between 2010 and 2011. Although I had upgraded other computers, even as a kid, from memory, prior to building my first desktop PC in 2010/2011. And through coming here and learning even more (even stuff I haven't even tried to learn), and finally answering the questions I had ever since I was in primary school; "what actually happens behind the scenes that I can't see on the screen? How exactly would I write a program myself?", I've finally found the reason why I was interested computers. I realized that the reason I had those questions was because I like to know how things work. Therefore the answer; "well that's just how it works", just isn't satisfying enough to me, the morbid curiosity bugs me until I can find an answer to the question(s). Therefore I realized the answer to the question "what should I do for the rest of life?" was staring me in the face the whole time, ever since I was a young kid, but I just didn't see it for all of those years I was talking about above. But now I'm having to ask another question, well at least a couple of other questions to be precise; is it too late? Do I have any chance of getting out of this dump of a city I currently live in to have any hope at all for any kind future worth living? As quite honestly, I'd rather be dead than stay in this dump of a city for much longer, it is just way too depressing staying in my current environment. As far as I'm concerned, there wouldn't be any point in living without any kind of decent future. Mentally speaking, I don't honestly see how I can last even another two or three years in my current environment, let alone any longer than that.

I've tried doing a job just for the money at the end of it and it just didn't work out. Money alone just doesn't motivate me enough for it to be sustainable in the long run, as having interest in what I'm doing provides the meaning that is the only thing that does actually motivate me. Again, it's not about the money to me, I'd much rather do something that pays less that I actually have interest in, than do something I have zero interest in for more money - it's that simple. I've got over $1000 dollars in my savings account that I could withdraw and spend tomorrow if I wanted to, but I don't feel any need at all to spend it. I don't even really think about it, I hate going to shopping centers, the supermarket, etc, even when I do actually need to buy something. That's how little money means to me. I wouldn't have been able to learn even just the half of whatever I know about Linux if I had no interest it in, it's the same for employment, despite how much it might pay. Let alone all the stuff that's happened in later years to top it all off. If I had no interest in Linux or computers in general, I'd just use M$ Windows and put up with whatever BS M$ decides to throw at Windows users.

I was going to create a blog post advertising myself as being available for employment in the IT industry, either as a "junior" programmer or even IT support, but thought it was probably a good idea to get some advice first (I asked Jeremy if that would be ok and he said it was fine). I basically have no future where I currently live. You'd basically have a better chance of finding a needle in a haystack than finding pretty much any IT related employment where I live, as employers nearly always want someone who has at least two years paid IT experience. The long and short of it is: those same employers wouldn't care how much knowledge I have or haven't got, they would just skip my application in favor of someone else who can say they've got recent paid IT experience and I'd be rejected without even a phone interview - let alone would I get an in-person interview. If I were living in a bigger city here in Australia, like Sydney or Melbourne, then I might have a slightly better chance. But of course without employment, I don't have the money to up-root myself and move to a different city, so just moving to a different state, let alone another city isn't possible without employment. And not having your own transport and having to rely on a pissant public transport system only complicates things even further again. So I'm in a catch 22; I don't have the money to move, but I can't get any IT work unless I do move. It's as much for psychological reasons, as much as for employment related reasons that my only choice is to move (preferably and hopefully at least one day to another country altogether). So for both mental health and employment related reasons, it's just not going to be possible for me to stay in the city (or really the state and country) I currently live in for much longer.

Truth be known, even with all of the political and covid nonsense (both within and outside of LQ), covid related and other conspiracy theories/nonsense, covid related pro/anti vaxxer nonsense here, the recent influx of trolls to this site, this site remains one of the few sane places I have left to go to. But of course, now the iceing on the cake is, and because of covid, the [useless] Australian Government has closed the country's borders and I'm literally living in an open air prison. So now I may as well be living in a real prison, because other than the not having bars on the windows, I'm pretty much already there in every way imaginable.

My IT related qualifications and certifications:

• Certificate 2 in Information Technology
• Certificate 3 in Information Technology (Software Applications)
• A+ IT Support Technician
• Certified Help Desk Analyst

I do realize that I can't expect to start at the top, and I'd therefore have to start at the bottom and do an "entry-level" type job first - and I have no issues with that (as long as I'm learning something by the same token). In fact, that would be best in that; it would be good experience to have IMHO, rather than get thrown into the "deep end" straight off the bat. I'm willing to be flexible, as I don't mind doing IT support/technician type work at least as a start, but obviously would much prefer to get a start in doing programming for a living (and hopefully Linux related one day).

I'm sorry for the long post, but I tried to condense everything as much as I could while still [hopefully] explaining [enough of] my background and situation, and I couldn't really make it much shorter while still properly explaining my situation. I've edited the draft I made of this post several times now, that I've intended to post since last week.

So I guess my main questions are; what should I do given all that I've said above? What exactly can I do?

Thank you in advance.

PS: I'm not looking for uninformed opinions about mental illness, ad hominems, or similar nonsense, so you need not respond in that case, and I will just ignore any such posts. I'm looking for informed, honest and practical advice concerning my situation, not debates or pissing contests. So please, no nonsense or smartass responses, or similar nonsense - just the adults here need respond, thank you.

I don't recognize your certs and don't know what they are worth. My advice is think again.

You may find linux related Tech support (e.g. with VMware) but when they go, or fold, and/or you get very fed up, you can't switch easily and others may be relying on your income. If you know of such, send them a CV. You can get jobs writing software, but you need to learn loads of programming languages, past, present & most of all future. There's a thread on Programming langusges in General, iirc.

Everything is globalized. One of my kids mobile development lives in Spain, has a staff of ~15, of which three come into the office. His Android guy is in Turkey, his backend guy elsewhere, etc. Everything goes up on github, gets implemented on AWS servers, and he controls it and light fires under the appropriate posteriors over WhatsApp or zoom. He does have a few Spanish employees, but no Irish or Aussies. Guys from 1st world countries cost more to hire.

If you can program very well, and your code will be accepted into the kernel (Two Big Ifs) you will get the occasional job writing linux drivers for kernel stuff. Having spent a career in tech, it's not a kind place. Employers always want (and often get) folks with experience on the latest tech, but you become unemployable if you stay too long with old tech. My business took me into older hardware, it raised my kids, but it was always going to grind to a halt sometime - and it did. Electronics are now irreparable. Certainly component-level work is beyond any third party, which is what I used to do.

Here, in this country, you'd make more as a self-employed plumber. So think again.

I don't think your future lies in programming. I've seen some of your programming posts and they always gave me the impression of unsystematic thinking, trying to run before you can walk. On the other hand, you are certainly knowledgeable about Linux and very good at explaining things. So if you could get a job in maintenance or tech support, that would probably suit you very well. The problem is of course how to break into the field when you have no paid experience. Actually I don't think it's being paid (or not paid) that's the problem here. It's the fact that you haven't worked in this sphere on a regular basis for an organisation. All your experience has been in private study and employers don't value that very highly, not even if you have certificates.

One possibility that suggests itself to me would be to go through the voluntary sector. What causes lie close to your heart? What organisations are fighting for those causes? Find out and offer yourself as a volunteer. Many of these people are starved of good quality IT support and might be happy to acquire it without being fussy about your employment record. They might or might not pay you, but you would be able to say to a future commercial employer, "I worked for so-and-so for two years, I set up such and such systems for them, and this was what resulted from my work."

While I appreciate the time you've taken to respond, and while your post is relevant to my questions; I did explicitly make the point that how much money I would make isn't the issue, and is not important to me. I would not have continued learning C if I wanted to be a plumber or an electrician instead - I would have just given up well before now and not bothered even posting this thread in the first place (nor would I have posted most of my programming threads in the first place for that matter).

So I don't mean to be rude or anything, but your post wasn't very helpful.

While I appreciate the rest of your post, and it was rather helpful; those same programming related posts were clearly posted while I was still very much a complete novice when it came to programming. So without trying to be rude, what I've quoted of your post sounds like someone saying: "well, if you didn't completely understand everything the first time, then forget about it and just give up". To be honest, I'm actually a little surprised you would make such a comment, particularly the reason you've stated. So I don't think it's fair, particularly the reason you've given if I'm being frank about it.

Because while that's a good way to write someone off; at the end of the day there was a time when everybody here didn't know anything. The point is: you kept reading, trying things, practicing until things did make sense. I'm sure anyone who is honest who is employed as a programmer would be able to tell you that not everything they tried when they were still very much a novice at programming worked out. Again, the point is: they kept at it until they became proficient at programming, as clearly if they'd adopted the attitude of "I failed the first time I tried XXX, so I'm giving up", they would not be proficient at all. The bottom line is: I was an absolute beginner when I posted my first programming threads here, and even now I couldn't reasonably be considered to be "an expert programmer" or even just a "seasoned programmer".

Well, maybe I did, maybe I didn't, either way I was trying to explain my situation and background so people could offer the best advice they could that's specific to my situation. My OP was not a job application, so just because I've posted it here, it doesn't mean I would be saying all of that to an actual employer - and it doesn't sound like you are offering me a job, so what's it matter? (rhetorical question)

Could you expand on that, as that's a pretty broad statement without much context. Expertise in exactly what, programming? Linux? Experience? What?

Without getting in to a debate about certifications, I don't disagree with your statement. But I posted what I have to once again try and explain my situation.

While I don't disagree with the points you've made about learning and working through problems (and never have); I would like to make a few points of my own:

• You seem to imply that just because someone is an "entry level person" they must have little to no prior knowledge or skills. I wouldn't make that assumption (and I would hope any decent employer wouldn't either), as it could equally mean that they just simply lack paid experience and therefore have to start somewhere and that's it. So I would not necessarily agree with that statement of yours, as it really depends on the person concerned, not on what position they are in as far as the job they are getting paid to do goes. Like for example, they might just want less responsibility for example, but not limited to.
  
• You must admit that when you are a novice at something and you're getting conflicting advice and suggestions, it can be very hard for someone who is a complete novice to know which advice and suggestions to take onboard. Therefore, that situation would likely only add to any confusion the person concerned already has, to the point that they are even more confused, rather than more clear about x, y or z by the end of it. Therefore they have to try and decide which advice/suggestions are most applicable to them at the given time and make a "judgement call" as it were. Can you really blame them for being more confused in that case, when they are still very much a novice to begin with? Seriously? I don't think it would be fair to blame them in that case, so I think you're being way too harsh in that case.
  
• I do feel that you seem to think that I deliberately ignored your advice, seemingly on multiple occasions. I did no such thing, and all of that advice is still available in those same threads - I've even bookmarked some of those posts to re-review later on. However, I will freely admit I did try and prioritize which advice I took, and in which order I took it, and I needed to do that for the same reasons outlined in the dot point above. I also feel that you are ignoring any other research I've done outside of LQ, both before and afterwards. As well as the fact that your way of learning isn't everybody else's way of learning and different people learn in different ways. Like for example, some can more or less "just read about it" and maybe look at a few examples and "just get it", others however are, and once again, visual learners that learn best by being able to see it, practicing it, looking at diagrams, etc. You've got no idea how much I wish I was the former, but I'm not and there is nothing I can do about that, period.
  
  I think fundamentally you were responding from a design point of view rather than from a "conceptual" point of view and this has led to what seems to be a misunderstanding on your part in that; I was "ignoring" or "resisting" your advice. Which is just once again untrue. To try and explain what I'm saying there, and I'll quote another member who contacted me via a PM, who had also responded to at least one of my past programming threads without identifying them (out of respect to their privacy, as it was a private conversion), and since I can't think of a better way to say it:
  
  
  Quote:

  In the meantime keep plodding on, try and focus on thing at once. And, to counter rtmistler's point: don't worry about design for now. Without a good grasp of general programming concepts and the features of your particular programming language the reality is that you can't make good design decisions or differentiate between good and bad ones.

  Well, I'm sorry RT, but the above is very true, and they are very correct in what they are saying and I've found this out first hand myself when trying to understand certain things, that while didn't make much, if any sense the first time, make a lot of sense to me now. Since now that I understand, and for example, what a pointer actually is, it's much clearer to me why people use them. The point is: without understanding the concept of what "it" is, how to use "it"; it's impossible for me to understand anything else, so you could talk until you are blue in the face about design - it's useless unless the concepts that need to be employed themselves make sense to me.
  
  So again, and as I've said to you in my programming threads: I get what you are saying about design, I do, I really do. But what I quoted above from another member (who does programming for a living as well as you, I might add) is exactly the point I tried and failed to make to you in my programming threads. I hope you can now understand that I wasn't ignoring your previous programming advice at all. So I do think you are being particularly harsh because of you feeling I "ignored" and/or "resisted" your previous advice I have to say.

90% of getting a job is finding the right person. I was looking for a job in 2019 and am pretty old, so sent many, many resumes over many months and got a pretty thick skin over some of the comments I got back (not in writing, of course). You may be bothered by some of the comments here, but believe me, they're positive compared to some things you could experience.

You will get advice such as: be realistic, don't try to take on too much, etc. Ignore it. Try new things. Don't rule anything out. I ended up in a field that I have no experience in and am enjoying it. There's a niche out there where you can be happy.

I would not seek careers advice from the web. You will often get a typically Alan Sugar / Donald Trump style of response. Or you will get the "you can be anything you want to be" response. Neither are helpful...

I think hazel’s suggestion to do volunteer work is an excellent idea.

Valid points, duly noted. My point was that 'following your dream' and having a worthwhile career that you can work till you retire are two different things. The world of tech can be very cruel. Imagine the guys who just wrote OS/2 looking for a job… "OS what??":)

Based on the original statement, it would have been more ideal if you presented an overview of your skills that are applicable for the types of jobs you are considering.Most of them.

1. You haven't provided any overview of skills which indicate that you would be suitable to work as a programmer or in IT.
2. You haven't worked in any of these types of jobs, so you have no experience.
3. Recognized that you have some Linux expertise.

Prospective employers are going to look at your list of skills which you have, to determine if they feel they will want to interview you. They will have to go by your stated skill set since you have no significant formal training and no experience.

Suggest you review available job opportunities related to Linux, IT, and programming and determine if you have the skills to work in any of those jobs.

Not going to sugar coat it: People are correct, the technical job market can be very tough and demeaning.

Good answers were already given.
I have little to add:

First of all, most things mentioned here by you & others are not limited to the IT field.

You mentioned a few times that job ads demand at least 2 years of paid experience in IT - maybe you should break that down for yourself, and start with 2 years of paid experience, and then experience in IT?
And paid usually doesn't refer to the money, what it really means is that you are able to hold down a job and work in a professional environment. There's important non-IT aspects here, punctuality, social interaction...
I can see how all that would be important to a prospective employer, esp. since you're well over 30 and therefore over the usual age of beginners in that field.
So, get 2 years of paid work experience, and meanwhile, build your IT skills with evening school or voluntary work etc.
Always in a way that gives you proof.
Nobody is interested in "home" skills - as real as they might be - it always needs to be documented as actual training, or work in an actual company or other "real" work environment.
Generally I'd recommend to start with internship type of work and upgrade to vocational training, or the other way round, or both.
There's a magical point where you have to stop working for the experience only, and start working for money (in your field of interest), but I don't think you're there yet.
I'd also recommend to go to your unemployment agency and ask them about programs for long-term unemployed (assuming both exist in your country).

I stumbled into this (IT) when I was working shift work in an office and was tapped to do daily backups on graveyard shifts (so was an “operator”). That led to some troubleshooting of code, and eventually to a full-time coding job. I was 33 at the time. I’ve been a programmer/analyst since…for more than 40 years. (I’m not counting the work I did as a keypunch/PCAM operator13 years before that)
Again, internship or volunteer work would be a good place to start.

So what have we got...

1. Hope I find the right person who can put in a good word for me, or someone who can give me at least a chance to prove myself (which is what I assume smallpond meant in their post).
2. Don't bother asking for any career advice on the internet.
3. Another vote for doing volunteer work (aren't I already doing that by helping people with their technical problems here?).
4. Another vote for the world of tech/technical job market can be "very cruel/tough".
5. Apparently "I'm not suitable to work as a programmer or in IT" and don't have much skills (although I apparently have "some Linux expertise"... yay! :rolleyes:).
6. Apparently unless you have paid IT/worked for some company, you DON'T have any experience.
7. Find some completely unrelated job and "hope" they need you to do some IT work, and then give you an actual IT job.

Well...

1. If I knew the "right" person to go to; I'd probably already have an IT job and therefore probably wouldn't have even started this thread to begin with - so that doesn't seem like an option that's available to me.
2. Can really see why cynwulf says that...
3. Apart from the fact I'm already doing that by helping others here; Say I find somewhere that needs "IT support" that they aren't willing/can't actually pay anyone for; I'm supposed to do that for god only knows how long and "hope" that either they offer me a paid position or some mysterious IT employer is going to come along, or I magically find one somewhere, who is going to be the "white knight" who is going to "rescue" me and give me an IT job? Well for one thing, I'm not getting any younger, and I haven't got god only knows how long to wait. Not to mention the fact that; the sort of employment there actually is where I am isn't even worth getting out of bed for, let alone applying for, and even if I did apply for it, well put it this way: the other 100+ others that have also applied would likely be shortlisted way before I would be. So that doesn't seem like much of an option for me either.
4. Well, it looks like it ain't just the IT world that we can say the same for...
5. Well it looks like I'm no use to this forum then :rolleyes: So I guess I'd better find a nice deep hole to die in then... oh, that's right, I'm already living in a shithole of a city, so at least the first part's already done... just gotta get the second part done now...
6. Isn't helping others with their technical problems, and/or answering other people's technical questions "experience" ? It's, and once again, not as if I'm getting any younger here for one thing. Not to mention the fact I haven't got the money to move house even within the same state, let alone to a far more expensive city...
7. Again, not getting any younger here, and don't have god only knows how long to wait for some "white knight" to come along...

Well, and while I do honestly thank you guys for taking the time to respond: I guess I'm totally fucked then and it was and has been a complete waste of time and effort learning anything about IT, let alone making any effort at all. Really sorry guys, but mentally speaking, and as I said in my OP, it's not going to be mentally possible for me to remain living in the city or state I currently live in. And moving costs money, not to mention paying rent costs money, without employment, I don't have money - and some pissant minimum wage job nobody else wants to do isn't going to cut it either. But, and once again, there simply are no decent jobs where I live - hence my "catch 22".

So it seems I'm just better off dead by the looks of it... I truly don't know why I even bother trying anything or making any effort... I truly don't. Clearly it's just utterly pointless...

Permission to speak freely?

First of all, nobody said you should be waiting for somebody to rescue you, quite the opposite!
You should become proactive in this matter.

You say "this is an LQ thread, not a job interview" but the way you speak betrays your attitude, and while employers aren't psychologists they are trained to pick up on such things, and I think you are being way too self-centered and negative here.

Surprisingly negative, bordering on something I'd call depressed.

Is there an unemployment agency? You should go ask for help. They know about people who get depressed because they can't get work.
They have programmes to work around that.

And here's a positive thought:
The thing with finding a job, or a house, or hitchhiking, is that statistics don't work: it doesn't matter if your chances are statistically low - it can take an hour or a year, but you only need one in the end.

What I said - "home skills" count for nothing, however real they may be.
And an internship is not exactly the same as volunteer work - the first implies a vested interest in a certain vocation, the latter implies altruism.
And as I said earlier, I think you should - for now at least - separate "paid experience" and "IT experience".