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newbiesforever 04-04-2021 03:37 PM

I'm 99 percent sure the fan lost a belt; please confirm
 
My new desktop build's CPU didn't stop working, but the system was saying "fan error" at boot, so I looked in the case. First I noticed that yes, it had stopped; then I noticed that below it, a black rounded rubber band was now hanging loosely on a corner of the heatsink. Well, that pretty much tells me what must have happened: the rubber band must be a belt (what else? I didn't have any rubber bands in the case) and I need to buy a new fan. I know it's obviously broken, but am I right? A belt popped loose? No wonder I heard the fan clank before it started.

I immediately shut down and went back to this laptop. Oh, well, that was an old fan left over from my last desktop computer (but used for only a year or two). I'm off to get a new one.

michaelk 04-04-2021 04:32 PM

I've never seen any fans inside a computer powered by a belt...

Some fans have bearings inside which might of failed and caused the clanking.

newbiesforever 04-04-2021 05:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by michaelk (Post 6237236)
I've never seen any fans inside a computer powered by a belt...

Some fans have bearings inside which might of failed and caused the clanking.

If it wasn't a belt, it wasn't. But that leaves me with a mystery: how a round-edged black rubber band, not particularly large, was hanging just on the upper left corner of the heat sink under the fan. Where it would have come from. My utility rubber bands look like one might expect: flat-edged and beige. I haven't bothered yet to take the fan off the CPU and examine it closely for some sort of damage. I just turned off the computer and put it aside.

It only just occurred to me to remember than automotive fans use belts (I don't drive!), so I wonder if anyone's going to tell me I must not know the difference between a computer and an automobile. I mean you haven't and don't necessarily think so; but LQ is large...

michaelk 04-04-2021 05:27 PM

There are some fairly interesting looking cooling fan/heatsinks out there. Let us know when you take a better look.

frankbell 04-04-2021 07:51 PM

Have you checked the manual for the motherboard? It should be available at the manufacturer's website.

newbiesforever 04-04-2021 08:16 PM

Well, no, I haven't done that just, because it was the fan that went out. The motherboard didn't appear to have anything wrong, because the computer was still running with the fan off (though it wouldn't go past the boot screen) for the minute or so I took to realize it wasn't running and shut down.

There could be a coincidence here, I guess: the fan fails at exactly the same time I discover a small black rubber band hanging just below it, which came from I know not where.

michaelk 04-04-2021 09:37 PM

Modern cpu fans have 3+ wires to so the system can measure and adjust their speed. The BIOS will check the speed at boot up and if not running will shutdown the computer.

In the past I have used rubber bands to tie up long switch wires that came with the case.

newbiesforever 04-04-2021 10:05 PM

Okay, I just pulled the fan off the CPU (ugh, I have to watch the still-fairly wet paste) and examined it. I know where the rubber band is probably from: the space between the blades and the label-displaying flat-nosed front of the fan.

I'd better identify my fan model and find a photo. https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/RigAA...Gjd/s-l300.jpg Thermaltake TR2 R1 TT. A cursory look showed me that this rubber band would fit perfectly in this narrow, round space that is now empty. The band most likely fell out of there. I don't suppose it's a belt as such, but I'm sure it came from the fan. I admit I don't know how it would come out, because it's not broken.

enorbet 04-05-2021 12:21 PM

I just have to ask since you mentioned this is a new build. What CPU uses a Fan/HS like that anymore? Isn't it loud? Perhaps more importantly what sort of temperatures did/does your CPU average?

I thought the "rubber band" may have actually been a gasket but seeing that photo, I doubt it.

newbiesforever 04-08-2021 07:41 AM

No, I don't mind explaining. It is technically a new build, but most parts are not new. This was an experiment in seeing to what extent I could get away with using old, obsolete (which usually meant used) components. I'll skip describing them individually because you asked about the fan specifically. The fan is/was left over from my last desktop computer build; I bought it eight or nine years ago and used it for around a year before the motherboard failed, and it's been in my box of parts ever since. So that particular re-use didn't work; I cheerfully bought a new one.

(Why did I try to build a computer of mainly used parts? Because I've been successfully using used computers for the last eight years--old ThinkPad laptops. I decided I wanted to go back to a desktop computer, and my years of using decade-old ThinkPads taught me that I don't need anything close to top-of-the-line.)

cynwulf 04-08-2021 12:14 PM

The band may been binding up some cables and have come loose?

That is if it is a band and not some kind of gasket? I've not personally seen any heatsink and fan which use a gasket (to dampen vibration) but there are so many products out there that I suppose it's possible.

enorbet 04-08-2021 12:33 PM

Thank you, newbiesforever for expanding. I happen to agree at least in large. My laptop is an ancient IBM Thinkpad T61p I bought used for ~90 bux (around $1750+, new). Recently I bought a 250GB Samsung SATA SSD for 40bux and it is very fast and pleasant AND it has no MCE which for me is a plus. So we share a basic conclusion, at least for some use cases.

I do have one problem with that T61p that directly relates to your problem and my response. My T61p cooled down a bit by switching from a 7200 rpm mechanical drive to an SSD but it still runs uncomfortably hot. It's uncomfortable both physically and emotionally because, coming from the electronics field, I am painfully aware it does not pay to cut costs on cooling.

Thankfully what used to be a tiny niche of PC enthusiasts has become a huge mainstream market, that of high performance gear that includes cooling solutions. Even a cheapo HS/Fan combo costing just 30 bux these days will run cooler, quieter, and longer than ones that cost close to 100 bux just 10 years ago.

There are areas of hardware that lose very little by going old or going cheap but power supplies and cooling isn't such an area.

PS - Sometimes we are forced out of older gear by lack of support. I have an old box that uses an LGA 775 Core 2 Extreme CPU that is still just amazingly fast and potent, but it's UEFI implementation hasn't been updated by Intel for over 6 years and it will not boot an NVME drive in a PCIe slot without painstaking and difficult (not to mention risky) modification of the UEFI image. Very frustrating.

newbiesforever 04-08-2021 03:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by enorbet (Post 6238625)
Thank you, newbiesforever for expanding. I happen to agree at least in large. My laptop is an ancient IBM Thinkpad T61p I bought used for ~90 bux (around $1750+, new). Recently I bought a 250GB Samsung SATA SSD for 40bux and it is very fast and pleasant AND it has no MCE which for me is a plus. So we share a basic conclusion, at least for some use cases.

I do have one problem with that T61p that directly relates to your problem and my response. My T61p cooled down a bit by switching from a 7200 rpm mechanical drive to an SSD but it still runs uncomfortably hot. It's uncomfortable both physically and emotionally because, coming from the electronics field, I am painfully aware it does not pay to cut costs on cooling.

Thankfully what used to be a tiny niche of PC enthusiasts has become a huge mainstream market, that of high performance gear that includes cooling solutions. Even a cheapo HS/Fan combo costing just 30 bux these days will run cooler, quieter, and longer than ones that cost close to 100 bux just 10 years ago.

There are areas of hardware that lose very little by going old or going cheap but power supplies and cooling isn't such an area.

PS - Sometimes we are forced out of older gear by lack of support. I have an old box that uses an LGA 775 Core 2 Extreme CPU that is still just amazingly fast and potent, but it's UEFI implementation hasn't been updated by Intel for over 6 years and it will not boot an NVME drive in a PCIe slot without painstaking and difficult (not to mention risky) modification of the UEFI image. Very frustrating.

Yes, we even use similar laptop models and even the same exact one at times. I started with a T61. I'd just rather not go older than a T400 (what I use now) because T61 won't take more than 4 GB RAM (if I recall). It's basically because of money that I wanted to stop using these laptops. Or, the annoyance of buying new laptops too often. I buy them used at eBay; and I have to replace them relatively often, because they break. I've never had one last more than a year and a half. Replacements are cheap: I can generally find a new one that looks in good shape for a hundred bucks; but something always eventually fails--the cooling system, the screen, the CPU. I was tired of buying a new one sometimes as often as every six months. My last desktop computer build lasted about five years and thus a desktop computer started looking better.

Contrary to what a recent post title would suggest, I'm no Luddite, but I am quite frugal. When my happy use of ancient laptops taught me that I don't need brand new technology, I was eager to run with that conclusion. I once met someone who said "You should use the latest and greatest technology, [expletive]!" and now I think he was quite foolish.

enorbet 04-08-2021 05:34 PM

I bought the T61P exactly because of it's age. It was the last series built by IBM (matters only a little) and the last model in which the BIOS does not have MCE (I often laugh at how close that is to MCP from Tron in function as well as name). The MCE has serious potential for spying on us but we can't even know if it is because it's proprietary. Nevertheless even while sleeping it has access to hard drives and networking. It's very rare that I actually travel with a laptop but since it is trivial to do so, I chose to err on the side of safety and privacy and 4GB RAM is plenty with Linux-only and what I want to do with any laptop. BTW an SSD, even on so old a laptop is a performance boost that no amount of ram can match and a helluva lot cheaper.

As opposed to laptop usage, I'm on my Desktop PCs for many hours every day. I completely agree with you that Desktop PCs are wiser not only for longevity but upgrade-ability. It should be obvious that I'm pretty frugal, too, but I've been building PCs so long that I have had to learn a few hard lessons. It is possible to go overboard maintaining old gear. Because technology goes up at almost the same rate that prices come down, there does come a point where it is no longer cost efficient to continue with old gear. Another thread here about Flat Panel Displays highlights one such issue. BIOS/UEFI is another.

On the flip side it is difficult to accept that I own a couple dozen really decent PCI cards that are useless on my newest and largely useless on my previous PC (1 PCI slot). However everything is much faster and more efficient... frugal isn't easy :)

business_kid 04-11-2021 07:16 AM

I agree with enorbet. Vintage cars or antiques may have their own lovable features. But vintage electronics are plain stupid. I worked with electronics since the late 1970s, and when you buy new, you can count on up to 5 good years from something. The sympathy or affection for older electronics leads to frustrating unreliability that robs time and energy, and underproduces.

Parts are obsolete within 3 years anyhow. Standards keep changing. What started as an 8 bit data bus through which everything traveled on an 8 bit computer running at a cpu speed of 1 Mhz has become 128 bit data buses on 64bit cpus doing Ghz on multiple cores augmented by very fast SIO lines driving your PCI Express cards.

Now if you're a man of leisure and enjoy playing with old stuff, enjoy yourself. Having had that kicked out of me by commercial reality, I wouldn't boast about it.

newbiesforever 04-11-2021 09:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by business_kid (Post 6239874)
I agree with enorbet. Vintage cars or antiques may have their own lovable features. But vintage electronics are plain stupid. I worked with electronics since the late 1970s, and when you buy new, you can count on up to 5 good years from something. The sympathy or affection for older electronics leads to frustrating unreliability that robs time and energy, and underproduces.

Parts are obsolete within 3 years anyhow. Standards keep changing. What started as an 8 bit data bus through which everything traveled on an 8 bit computer running at a cpu speed of 1 Mhz has become 128 bit data buses on 64bit cpus doing Ghz on multiple cores augmented by very fast SIO lines driving your PCI Express cards.

Now if you're a man of leisure and enjoy playing with old stuff, enjoy yourself. Having had that kicked out of me by commercial reality, I wouldn't boast about it.

I'm not sure whether you had fans specifically in mind. Because is there any reason I shouldn't say that a fan is not electronic, and that therefore the principle of rapid obsolescence doesn't apply to fans? If it plugs in, and spins, and helps circulate air...

The only way I am sure my broken fan would have become obsolete is if the design of the fan port on the motherboard had changed. My new motherboard's fan plug ports are exactly the same as the old one, but they might one day be replaced by some new standard.

Dr. McCoy was probably right when he grumbled, "I know engineers. They love to change things."

enorbet 04-11-2021 09:45 AM

As much as I have "campaigned" for new with electronics I probably should mention that in musical instrument amplification there is still a huge market for old technology revolving around vacuum tubes/valves with which I wholeheartedly agree, so I'm not at all blindly following "New==Improved". Use case matters. However, while you are correct, newbiesforever, that fans are not entirely electronic since they are mechanical as well it isn't as if there haven't been major improvements in fans, too.

You can plug in an old 2 pin fan to a 3 or 4 pin fan power header but it won't work any better than they ever did. There is good reason for 3 and 4 pin headers/fans and if you recall old PCs were often produced that had ZERO fans. There exists a progression all in one direction - more and better... more CFM airflow at less power usage and less noise. My current Main PC has 8 fans almost 4 TIMES the diameter and airflow of yours and at extremely quiet levels and that isn't uncommon anymore at all. The market for PC oriented fans has grown tremendously which has provided the funding and competition to develop ever better fan solutions.

Fans are like fuses. They protect items that cost orders of magnitude more that their cost. Yes, your existing fan design will likely continue to operate for many years, but newer designs do a better job by far and at a fraction of the cost of what they serve... including your hearing.

enorbet 04-11-2021 09:50 AM

If you'd like to have some great fun while you also learn about fan design and development check out this guy's YT Channel that features 3D Printer fan production, often quite hilarious, but always interesting and educational.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=olWfObN_u-8

newbiesforever 04-11-2021 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by enorbet (Post 6239903)
progression all in one direction - more and better... more CFM airflow at less power usage and less noise. My current Main PC has 8 fans almost 4 TIMES the diameter and airflow of yours and at extremely quiet levels and that isn't uncommon

Wow--eight fans. You must do many intense-heat-generating things. I don't.

enorbet 04-11-2021 01:39 PM

Not at all unusually so, just videos, gaming and some DAW work. However I am from a deep electronics background and understand how damaging heat is to electronics so I always shoot for ultra cool. My Main is a Z490 Asus with an i5-10600K CPU overclocked to 5.0 GHz. It's Heatsink/Fan combo has 2 x 140mm fans just on the CPU. My GPU is an old GTX 1070Ti which would already be replaced with a 3080Ti if they were possible to get anywhere near MSRP but the 1070Ti has 3 fans to itself. The Corsair PSU has a 140mm fan which I'd actually forgotten reporting 8 total, so I actually have 9 since there are 3 case fans - 2 x 140mm and 1 x 120mm.

At idle this beast runs around 42C dead quiet. At full bore for extended periods on the heaviest games I play or benchmarks I run, with ambient these days around 27C it maxes out at around 58C. For such a powerful PC a Delta T of around 30C is impossible to achieve with less airflow, and not likely at all quietly without so many large fans. Water-cooling could do it, but I'm skeptical still of running water-cooling inside PCs.

newbiesforever 04-11-2021 01:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by enorbet (Post 6239973)
Not at all unusually so, just videos, gaming and some DAW work. However I am from a deep electronics background and understand how damaging heat is to electronics so I always shoot for ultra cool. My Main is a Z490 Asus with an i5-10600K CPU overclocked to 5.0 GHz. It's Heatsink/Fan combo has 2 x 140mm fans just on the CPU. My GPU is an old GTX 1070Ti which would already be replaced with a 3080Ti if they were possible to get anywhere near MSRP but the 1070Ti has 3 fans to itself. The Corsair PSU has a 140mm fan which I'd actually forgotten reporting 8 total, so I actually have 9 since there are 3 case fans - 2 x 140mm and 1 x 120mm.

At idle this beast runs around 42C dead quiet. At full bore for extended periods on the heaviest games I play or benchmarks I run, with ambient these days around 27C it maxes out at around 58C. For such a powerful PC a Delta T of around 30C is impossible to achieve with less airflow, and not likely at all quietly without so many large fans. Water-cooling could do it, but I'm skeptical still of running water-cooling inside PCs.

I don't trust the idea of holding water inside a box of electronics, either.

business_kid 04-12-2021 05:36 AM

It's funny to hear the "new = improved" rule (which I generally agree with) and vacuum tubes mentioned in the same paragraph.

To some (but not me) vacuum tubes in Audio are the exception that proves the above Rule. Richardson Electronics in the UK probably still exist and they sell vacuum tubes for broadcasting, & Audio. There were a number of plastic welders & wood glue curing machines built around 6-10 KV in my repairing days. Currents were 1-3A and you could find valves to do 100KW without trouble by raising the voltage. Radio Luxembourg broadcast with 1 million watts - an amazing (valve) output which was heard all over Europe.

Some people (but not me) love the sound of valve amplifiers. But by every specification that could be measured, valves are worse. They have a THD of about 10%; TID, mains hum, noise, weight, are all worse - much worse. Valves use bases which collect dust and also are a noise source. Capacitors are undersized, ancient, and a noise source in themselves. But to not a few, the 'valve sound' is magical. I view it as similar to the 'tea or coffee' choice; they certainly are different.

There are equal and opposite opinions in about equal quantity, and the debate never ends.There was a company over here called Pye which made audio & tvs in the 1960s/1970s. Their chief engineer refused to let any product out without a valve audio stage, which hurt their sales and contributed to their demise; but whatever way they were set up they could only replace him when he retired.

Jan K. 04-12-2021 06:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by newbiesforever (Post 6239975)
I don't trust the idea of holding water inside a box of electronics, either.

Been running that for the past 15 years... temp stays in the 35-38 degree range summer and winter...

Some BIOS has settings for fans, where you can disable/ignore fan speed reading. If not set to either of these - or water pump not set to cpu fan speed sensor - MB won't boot.

enorbet 04-12-2021 07:43 AM

Hello business_kid

Sort of On Topic - I guess I wasn't clear since I don't subscribe to the concept that New always == Improved. Every choice is a tradeoff and use-case dependent.

Drifting Off Topic -
In this case while I love the sound of valve amps for high fidelity audio reproduction but have mostly caved into convenience though I vastly still prefer 2 + 1 and don't go for wraparound speaker arrays of any kind... 5/1, 7/1 all gild the lily in my book. However I played guitar for a living for about a decade and worked in and around the Music business much of my life and nothing but valves work properly for me with musical instruments since in that field they are not mere reproduction devices but musical instruments unto themselves.

That said you appear to lack knowledge of high end valve amps like MacIntosh, Carver, and numerous other brands that do not suffer from the ills you list and instead have pleasing, sometimes jaw-dropping, psychoacoutic effects. I was trained in Electronics and have a degree but far more importantly extensive long term experience in every aspect of valve audio gear including design, layout and construction and learned that numbers are only the story we know how to measure. Where human brains and hearing are involved there is a great deal we don't know how to measure. An example of this was the long argument about distortion in ICs that was denied for years by many engineers until finally someone using Fast Fourier Transforms and other tools with increased sensitivity and reduced reaction time measured and proved TRANSIENT InterModulation Distortion and slew rate became a far more important spec and design goal.

I could go on for days but suffice it to note that valves can create the effect of a 3 dimensional soundstage that is like standing at the Taj Mahal compared to SS being like a postcard of the Taj Mahal by comparison.

That has to be experienced to be grasped so I'll just end with some specs of a moderately decent valve Hi Fi amp for anyone curious and apologize to OP for drifting at such a sharp tangent.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carver 275 Specs
Rated Power:
4Ω 75 Watts Per Channel
8Ω 75 Watts Per Channel
16Ω 60 Watts Per Channel
Frequency Response: +0, -3dB from 16Hz to 35kHz.; Flat 20Hz – 20kHz 0.25dB
Distortion: Less than 1.0%
Power Bandwidth: 24 Hz to 28 kHz without filters
Line Inputs: Gold-plated RCAs​
Speaker Outputs: Gold-plated 5-way binding posts​
Input Impedance: 100 Kohms (RCA)
Gain: 29 dB (8 ohms)
Tube Complement: One 12AX7, two 12AT7s, four KT120s
Hum and Noise: Better than 100 dB below 75 Watts, A-weighted.
Bias: Rear panel potentiometer adjust, front panel meter
Output Transformers: Interleaved windings, super wide-band, low leakage inductance, proprietary design
Source Impedance: 1.7 ohms
Color: Sparkle Burgundy Red
Dimensions (WHD): 14" x 7" x 9.5"
Weight: 19 lbs.
Country of Origin: United States of America
Chassis and Tube Warranty: 5 years



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