Here's the text of a complaint I made a couple of days ago about not being able to NOT buy Windows on notebooks sold in Belgium (and the whole EU).

The complaint was made on the basis of being a normal consumer and not a 'small business user' as above.

I know there a miraculous Windows Refund stories out there but they all seem too time-consuming for small consumers. Why can't we have choice?

In theory, Belgium (and other EU states) should provide consumer protection (that includes preventing 'forced illegal linked selling practices').

I know I'm going to get cheated into buying Vista soon despite using Ubuntu. It's annoying.

David
(dafydd in Welsh)


-----Original message-----
From: "David Ferguson" david@XXXXX.com
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2006 07:56:51 +0100
To: sg-plaintes@cec.eu.int
Subject: Illegal forced sale of Microsoft OS with notebooks in Belgium and the EU

Dear Secretary General,
Dear Ms Day,

I am writing to make a formal complaint concerning the forced sale of Microsoft OS with notebooks in Belgium and other EU countries, and more specifically the failure of Belgian authorities to prevent the distortion of the market for notebook laptop computers.

All major notebook computer suppliers in Belgium, perhaps representing almost 99% of the retail notebook market, offer no option other than to pay for a pre-installed version of Windows. Such companies include Dell, Packard Bell, Photo Hall, MediaMarkt, HP, Sony, Toshiba, Acer, Fujitsu Siemens, and Lenovo.

The forced pre-installing of and payment for Microsoft operating systems on notebooks in Belgium has engendered a distorted market. The companies involved maintain confidential pricing policies as to manufacturer-paid charges for the Windows operating systems. However, there are indications that this could lead to excess charges of EUR 100 for unit purchased by an end consumer.

As a user of an alternative operating system based upon a GNU General Public License, as do some 5 percent of notebook users, I myself now face being charged for a product I do not and will not need.

Although the End User License Agreement (EULA) for the Microsoft Windows XP Professional and Microsoft Windows XP Home Edition refers in vague terms to the possibility of a refund in the event of not installing and not agreeing with the EULA terms, notebook providers in Belgium refuse to offer such refunds and do not have known procedures for so doing.

As a normal customer buying a single notebook, it is not possible in any way to configure purchase options so as NOT to pay for a Windows operating system at any of the following retailers: Dell, Packard Bell, Photo Hall, MediaMarkt, HP, Sony, Toshiba, Acer, Fujitsu Siemens, and Lenovo.

I therefore request that the Commission make a formal investigation into the distortion of notebook computer market in Belgium and elsewhere as well as to force local authorities to ensure that consumers have the right to choose whether or not to buy a Windows operating system when purchasing a notebook in Belgium and elsewhere within the EU.

Yours sincerely,
David Ferguson

And we are open to one more round of Windows..... PLAYBALL

Well stated.

Well...'no Windows' requirement limited my choice when buying a notebook (earlier this month). The answer is simple...I gave my money to the company offering what I want. Simple as that. I have an Asus.

There are certain non-Windows Acer model, from what I know.

I agree, well stated. But the only little itty bitty problem is "How do you get a giant corporation with a monoply equivalent to owning every thing but the oranges' to listen to and obey a complaint from a user of one of their biggest competitors' (free) OS and hand away a huge chunk of their revenue?"

Ain't gonna happen, especially since this is probably their most effective piracy fighting method. In other words, how many people do you think would ditch a legal XP costing $150 and pirate it instead, loan the cracked CD with built-in key to all their family and friends? The cost of a few CDs bringing down the MS empire. Would be a hilarious way for them to go. :-D

Extremely well stated...

I like the fact that you point out, not only that the sale of a laptop is tied to the sale of an operating system, but that the manufacturers pay considerably less for a copy than does the consumer. Thus, the consumer who chooses to buy an off the shelf copy of the system pays considerably more, and so the consumer is being ripped-off twice.

I don't regard Microsoft as "the Evil Empire," but I do consider that forcing someone to buy a package, without the recourse to do otherwise, constitutes illegal "tying" under the laws of most countries, not just Belgium.

Ironically, though, it may well be the marketplace itself that finally provides relief. The $150(USD) personal computer is on its way, and when that arrives there will be no room in the pricing to pad-in a copy of Windows.

That's why you'll never see it. That's why it costs $299 to buy a Dell that I could've built for $100-$200.

ya I agree we need to sort this out because money is going to microsoft every time we by a PC or notebook. we need a chose as some people use Linux or BSD. every computer purchase from a main brand of computer maker we have to pay microsoft. what do they think that they invented the computer or something and that's why microsoft always have the right to money


I am in the EU [england]



It seems like the world really likes microsoft

Well done, dafydd007. Hope that gets listened to.


Perhaps, as a Californian, you didn't understand the reference to the "Commission" in dafydd007's letter. This is the European Commission and he was writing to an official within it. Sort of equivalent to your federal government. 'Sort of', because we are not a federal republic here in Europe - not yet anyway. If the commission do investigate dafydd007's complaint and make an appropriate ruling, then the likes of Dell, Packard Bell, et al would have something altogether greater to listen to than one user. What's the population of the EU? About twice that of the USA, isn't it? That's an awful lot of consumers.

And anyway, this is about forcing manufacturers of computers to do something, not the giant monopoly corporation.

Thanks for all your comments and support. It takes a while for the European Commission to reply (about a month).

As a point of order here's a previous post of mine on Dell possibly selling non-Windows notebooks to small business customers.

I don't know if they do this for joe-blogs-consumers.

Worth testing out in various countries by calling Dell.

Dafydd

Hi,

Apparently several years ago, Dell was stepped upon by Microsoft to stop selling computers without Windows. Microsoft had to be careful so as not to be fined by the European Commission. Anyway, in Belgium it is almost impossible to buy a notebook without buying Windows.

Except... I just called Dell Belgium - as a 'small business user' and not as 'consumer' - and was put through to somebody in the Netherlands.

I insisted on specifications of a Latitude X1 (rather than the OS).

Then I asked whether Dell has a notebook without Windows (because I use a Linux OS) the salesperson checked with a colleague and then said NO. On the Dell Belgium website there is no procedure NOT TO SELECT Windows XP for notebooks.

I asked if it was possible to get a discount, or not have it installed (because the Microsoft EULA says I can get a refund and do not have to have Windows installed).

The other argument I used was 'I like the X1, it so light. That's just what I'm looking for. But I don't really want to pay for something that I am not going to use'. The salesperson was helpful and understanding.

He offered a discount of EUR89.

Does this happen elsewhere (in Europe?). If anyone has any time or inclination, and is thinking about buying a new notebook, could you call your own local Dell and ask about buying a notebook without Windows?

I think I got a discount as a small business client rather than as a consumer.

Dafydd

Heh...
I happen to know a (small) chain here in the Netherlands that does sell Laptops without pre-installed OSes : http://www.computer-land.nl/index.php?page=notebooks (If this link goes against the board-policy , please remove it. I just posted it as an example)
It' s simple : If there's no OS stated in the description of the product , it's not there and hence you don't pay for it.

But they're a rare exeption,indeed....

I think the problem is that they are not allowed to sell the computer without windows because they signed contracts with microsoft and would be sued if they did!

Microsoft calls companies like Dell their "channel partners" I think and they are provided Windows/Office at only a small fraction of the normal wholesale oem/var price! To get that price, they have to sign exclusive contracts and it is the same way all over the world I believe... But in some parts of the world, there might be more competition so you don't have to by from a channel partner if you live there or place a foreign order.

Well, it was not easy to find but I googled this up:

http://linuxcertified.com/linux_laptops.html

They are in california so if you can afford international shipping, you problems might be solved! Consumers that cannot afford to or do want to order that way still have the same problem and there probably will not be any help because they want those companies to be there! Even france had to bend their own consumer laws practically to the breaking point just to allow apple ipod to operate there!

Bechtel and GE can generate the 'power' and electricity, to break the retrogressive market-skimming strategies, have power to recycle the money involved, recycle the used technologies and power to reoganize the e-businesses

Or we have to build some more Three Gorges Dams(18 billion Watt) and Hoover dams(2 billion Watt) more, democratize Iran or else don't connect 1 billion Chinees with these unsophisticated energy guzzling antiquated technologies

We just have to build a wifi and powerline booting desktop (clipper-chip free??)
http://www.k12ltsp.org
http://www.ltsp.org

Build on X windows, which has a stability record envied in computing and has been stable for 18 year

Hi,
Here's the first reply from the European Commission to my complaint about not being able to buy NOTEBOOKS (the reply only mentions PCs) without having to buy Windows.

I should get a more formal reply in around two weeks (concerning the official complaint against Belgium for failing to protect consumers from the 'illegal forced sale of Microsoft with notebooks').
there's lots to complain about in the reply: eg. "... I understand that Microsoft's licensing agreements with PC manufacturers encourage (through the grant of rebates) the pre-installation of operating systems on PCs. However, this does not have to be a Microsoft operating system. The Commission is not aware of any obligation either contractual or financial, obliging the PC OEMs to sell their PCs with Windows operating systems in particular..."

dafydd

---

Dear Mr. Ferguson,

Thank you for your email dated I7 June 2006 to the Consumer Officer. This email relates to the possibility of purchasing PCs without a preinstalled Windows operating system.

The Commission is aware of the difficulties encountered by consumers to purchase PCs without an operating system on them or alternatively with another operating system than Windows.

As regards the possibility of purchasing a PC without an operating system, I understand that Microsoft's licensing agreements with PC manufacturers encourage (through the grant of rebates) the pre-installation of operating systems on PCs. However, this does not have to be a Microsoft operating system. The Commission is not aware of any obligation either contractual or financial, obliging the PC OEMs to sell their PCs with Windows operating systems in particular.

Furthermore, it appears that the choice of a PC vendor to offer PC with or without an OS is not so much influenced by the rebate offered by Microsoft than by the existence of effective consumer demand for PCs with operating systems. We suspect that the structure of the market and demand from consumers is the driving force behind the decision by PC vendors to offer Windows preinstalled on the majority of their computers. If this is information is confirmed, the conduct of PC manufacturers would be justified by pure commercial reasons and may not fall under the provisions of EC competition law.

That said we have not yet finalized our review of the market and are grateful that you took time to inform us of the problems you have encountered. Against this background, I would like to take this opportunity to inform you that the Commision intends to examine these questions in greater detail in the future.

Yours sincerely,

Angel TRADACETE COCERA

EUROPEAN COMMISSION
DG Competition
Director Directorate C: Information, Communication and Media
B-1049 Brussels

@daffyd
Sorry for reviving a rather old thread, but I recently found a dutch webstore called "Laptops4u", where you can configure and order so-called "barebone" laptops from several brands, without Windows XP pre-installed. Just use google to find them, I am not sure if I can post the link here. The good news is that they will apparently also ship to Belgium. The bad news is that the site is all in Dutch, but maybe that is not a problem for you.
I hope that helps.