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Old 07-27-2021, 12:07 PM   #31
cynwulf
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enorbert, you introduced the argument of "97% customer satisfaction". 97/100 people who bought an Apple loved it just shows that they are marketing to the right kind of people. They bought an Apple, the amount spent on it wasnt an issue and they believe that spending more gets you more - in every instance. Apple depend on this, in order to sell products assembled in the same factories as wintel products at inflated prices.

SCSI drives in Apple must go back to Power Macintosh or even before that?

SCSI drives were commonplace in Wintel where users/sys admins bought SCSI adapters and SCSI drives... many more were used in servers than in a tiny proportion of macs. SCSI marketshare dropped drastically when SATA drives came along, it's now rare to find SCSI in any servers. I can't recall when I last saw one.

With regards to Firewire, you've ignored the contributions from Sony and Panasonic as well as many others. It's also heavily patent encumbered - and even Apple abandoned it.

Last edited by cynwulf; 07-27-2021 at 12:18 PM.
 
Old 07-27-2021, 05:17 PM   #32
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Geez, cynwulf, do you actually think these Mac Elitists would still love their Apple machines if they were crap? Please do consider the iPod vs/ any other mp3 player ever made. I considered an iPod because they had substantially more powerful power amps. I really didn't care much that just a few thumb actions would find a song much faster than the clunky competitors but the points are Yes it was more expensive but also Yes it was better. The cost/benefit wasn't sufficient for me to buy one simply because I don't care much for mp3s. However many did as evidenced by them selling 100,000,000 units by the end of the first full year. In 2014 they still sold over 14,000,000. They were warrantied so if the delivered quality was crap, Apple may well have had to file for bankruptcy from returns. That didn't happen.

I get it that you don't like Apple gear and it isn't my cuppa either but it isn't simply overpriced crap. Just because some are assembled in the same facilities does not even imply they are the same gear just with gouging price tags. No product line can keep up that scam, for anything other than VERY short terms. Your choice still has value but only to you, your budget and needs. That you don't like them doesn't mean they suck. It just means you like an alternative better.

As for Apple abandoning technologies, that's commonplace in proprietary corporations that only command single digit market penetration. USB had so much Wintel support it developed way faster. By the time USB 2.0 was released it had equaled and subsequently 2.1 surpassed original FireWire.

If you're hellbent on backing your point please explain precisely where and how they are an across-the-board fail.
 
Old 07-28-2021, 10:17 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet View Post
I considered an iPod because they had substantially more powerful power amps. I really didn't care much that just a few thumb actions would find a song much faster than the clunky competitors but the points are Yes it was more expensive but also Yes it was better. The cost/benefit wasn't sufficient for me to buy one simply because I don't care much for mp3s.
So it had one benefit (to you) and after weighing up the cost/benefits, then decided against... that's not a compelling argument. Do you believe that all Apple customers went for it for the same reasons? Or because it was the latest shiny fashion accessory?

Incidentally a relative of mine had an iPod, they clung to it for years - mainly out of ignorance and assumption it was "better". They had been told by someone that it was "better" - someone who simply paid the highest for everything in the false belief that it was always "better"... and that Apple products in particular made them stand out from the crowd. I was the "IT support" who had to periodically jump through hoops, reset it, reinstall the "clunky", bloated and obfuscated "iTunes" s**tware, which the device was inextricably dependent on. Of course that was "iTunes" for Windows - I'm told that it worked much better on macOS... but somewhat hilariously, the vast majority of iPod users were syncing via Windows.

Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet View Post
However many did as evidenced by them selling 100,000,000 units by the end of the first full year. In 2014 they still sold over 14,000,000. They were warrantied so if the delivered quality was crap, Apple may well have had to file for bankruptcy from returns. That didn't happen.
Sales and marketing. Apple and Jobs were good at one thing: selling gimmicks to their target consumer. I actually give them a lot of credit for that. I think of the of mass produced hardware as part of the "packaging". Before Intel macs you could argue about Wintel vs mac - now you're just arguing aesthetics. Read up on Foxconn if you want to know how Apple stuff was/is produced - it may seem irrelevant, but from my point of view it does answer some of the "quality" claims. e.g. if you bought designer clothes and it turns out they are made in the same far eastern sweatshop as high street / supermarket clothes, then I for one find would find any claims about "quality" to subject to some debate at least.

The same person I mentioned above picked up their macbook by the edge of the screen, and it was so flimsy it cracked it. Off they go down to the Apple store to pay out an extortionate amount for the repair...

"over-priced crap"

Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet View Post
As for Apple abandoning technologies, that's commonplace in proprietary corporations that only command single digit market penetration. USB had so much Wintel support it developed way faster. By the time USB 2.0 was released it had equaled and subsequently 2.1 surpassed original FireWire.
I don't think firewire was surpassed in all respects (maybe still not entirely) until USB 3.0. As I said, Apple started development of firewire, but were not the only developer for firewire.

Last edited by cynwulf; 07-28-2021 at 10:18 AM.
 
Old 07-28-2021, 10:57 AM   #34
newbiesforever
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Since this debate is (somewhat) interesting but rather tangential to my OP (which I have nothing further to say about), would the two of you consider taking it to personal messages or starting your own post?
 
Old 07-28-2021, 11:30 AM   #35
cynwulf
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You have nothing further to say and I have no interest in continuing the "debate", so that seems to work.

 
Old 07-28-2021, 05:31 PM   #36
enorbet
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I don't know who "You" is above (I have plenty more to say) but since this is your thread newbiesforever, I will of course comply.
 
Old 07-29-2021, 04:59 PM   #37
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I don't find anything wrong with used CPUs. A CPU chip works or doesn't work.
What is tricky is bad coolers and fans. If you use a quality fan you can keep the CPU temperature lower and make it work for longer.
About used hard drives, I'm not sure because you have to check the drive as well as the SMART information to know its health state.
Power supply units can be at risk, too. Most frequent problem in my job's computers has been the power supply.
 
Old 07-30-2021, 02:12 AM   #38
cynwulf
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I agree.

The single biggest killer of any PC is dust. I find countless machines choked with it. Components carpeted with it and heatsinks and fans full up with it. It also fills power supplies.

PSUs are full of electrolitic capacitors, which eventually dry out and fail and in fact these are easily and cheaply replaced. In my workplace we've recently begun getting capacitors replaced instead of throwing away the PSU.
 
Old 07-30-2021, 10:17 AM   #39
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Another killer of electronics is heat. It is possible to provide good cooling at the same time one reduces dust accumulation. All one need do it have more Intake fans that Output fans to create a slight positive internal air pressure. Not only will less dust be attracted but the filters will be easier to clean.
 
Old 07-30-2021, 01:35 PM   #40
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It was mainly the sellers that I felt uncertain about. When I found the used CPUs at eBay for a few dollars, I couldn't be sure whether the price was only because old obsolete CPUs are largely worthless. The sellers might have been knowingly selling junk; and so I thought I was taking a small risk. (In case they worked, the price was so good that I bought at least one spare.)

As a somewhat smaller concern, I worried that these CPUs might be ready to fail. That's what happens with some of my used laptops: they bite the dust within a few months.

Last edited by newbiesforever; 07-30-2021 at 01:40 PM.
 
Old 08-08-2021, 03:56 AM   #41
ondoho
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Quote:
Originally Posted by newbiesforever View Post
The sellers might have been knowingly selling junk;
You always need to look at their reputations/feedback given etc.

What is more likely is that they simply sell the CPU without testing it: you have to find out whether it works or not. Given how low the price is, it doesn't matter if you need to try again every now and then.
But I agree with one previous poster: CPU - either it works or it doesn't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cynwulf View Post
PSUs are full of electrolitic capacitors, which eventually dry out and fail and in fact these are easily and cheaply replaced. In my workplace we've recently begun getting capacitors replaced instead of throwing away the PSU.
Nice.
I just replaced 2 capacitors in an old monitor's PSU - it was really easy to do and cost me just 2.
Granted, I first had to find a shop that actually sells them in small quantities. These used to be more common, but nowadays most of it's online I guess, and there's only 1 for a million people.
 
Old 08-08-2021, 09:59 AM   #42
newbiesforever
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ondoho View Post
Given how low the price is, it doesn't matter if you need to try again every now and then.
\
Exactly. They cost so little--almost nothing--that I bought one or two spares. I thought it was particularly plausible that the CPUs weren't dead but half-dead: functional but ready to fail. But CPUs either working or not working, which you agree with, is a paradigm that doesn't seem to support my concern.
 
Old 08-09-2021, 02:43 AM   #43
ondoho
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Quote:
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I thought it was particularly plausible that the CPUs weren't dead but half-dead: functional but ready to fail.
I wasn't suggesting that that isn't possible.
But cases like hard drives that still work but with an increasing number of bad sectors, or memory chips that work but have faulty bits, that sort of stuff, I don't think it happens with CPUs. But then again, never say never.
 
Old 08-09-2021, 05:09 AM   #44
business_kid
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I have never met a CPU which stayed with one fault and didn't develop more, and I've worked with CPUs for close on 40 years. It's one little chunk of silicon, and when it goes, it goes.

Last edited by business_kid; 08-09-2021 at 05:11 AM.
 
Old 08-09-2021, 09:00 AM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by business_kid View Post
I have never met a CPU which stayed with one fault and didn't develop more, and I've worked with CPUs for close on 40 years. It's one little chunk of silicon, and when it goes, it goes.
It seems that CPU chips contain some autocheck technology to verify they work as expected. I remember a friend (early 1980s) worked as a phd searcher for Thomson, on that subject: design a cpu able to autodetect if something goes wrong, so that it eventually passes control to a spare system. At the time this was for 16-bit CPUs (eg 68000) to be used in critical systems and it would lead to about 50% more transistors on chip. I can imagine that this kind of safety design has been incorporated in newer designs too. Anyway, we know since long that a CPU stops working beyond a temperature level and this is good: it saves the chip from destruction and helps us look for fan problems.

Good fans for the CPU and the computer case help to keep the motherboard, chips and hard drives at a lower temperature that make the entire device working under safer conditions. It is better to use the bigger fan diameter that the case allows, working at a reduced speed, to be less noisy. Some cases allow to install two fans, one on the front before the hard drive(s) block that brings air to the case interior, and another on the back to take the warm air out.
It is useful to monitor sometimes the temperature of the main components. Just now, my i7-3537U laptop (Asus) gives: CPU cores 51 and 52 degrees C (it would be better to be lower), HD temperature 37 degrees C (that seems good).
 
  


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