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Old 04-11-2021, 09:17 AM   #16
newbiesforever
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Quote:
Originally Posted by business_kid View Post
I agree with enorbet. Vintage cars or antiques may have their own lovable features. But vintage electronics are plain stupid. I worked with electronics since the late 1970s, and when you buy new, you can count on up to 5 good years from something. The sympathy or affection for older electronics leads to frustrating unreliability that robs time and energy, and underproduces.

Parts are obsolete within 3 years anyhow. Standards keep changing. What started as an 8 bit data bus through which everything traveled on an 8 bit computer running at a cpu speed of 1 Mhz has become 128 bit data buses on 64bit cpus doing Ghz on multiple cores augmented by very fast SIO lines driving your PCI Express cards.

Now if you're a man of leisure and enjoy playing with old stuff, enjoy yourself. Having had that kicked out of me by commercial reality, I wouldn't boast about it.
I'm not sure whether you had fans specifically in mind. Because is there any reason I shouldn't say that a fan is not electronic, and that therefore the principle of rapid obsolescence doesn't apply to fans? If it plugs in, and spins, and helps circulate air...

The only way I am sure my broken fan would have become obsolete is if the design of the fan port on the motherboard had changed. My new motherboard's fan plug ports are exactly the same as the old one, but they might one day be replaced by some new standard.

Dr. McCoy was probably right when he grumbled, "I know engineers. They love to change things."

Last edited by newbiesforever; 04-11-2021 at 09:20 AM.
 
Old 04-11-2021, 09:45 AM   #17
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As much as I have "campaigned" for new with electronics I probably should mention that in musical instrument amplification there is still a huge market for old technology revolving around vacuum tubes/valves with which I wholeheartedly agree, so I'm not at all blindly following "New==Improved". Use case matters. However, while you are correct, newbiesforever, that fans are not entirely electronic since they are mechanical as well it isn't as if there haven't been major improvements in fans, too.

You can plug in an old 2 pin fan to a 3 or 4 pin fan power header but it won't work any better than they ever did. There is good reason for 3 and 4 pin headers/fans and if you recall old PCs were often produced that had ZERO fans. There exists a progression all in one direction - more and better... more CFM airflow at less power usage and less noise. My current Main PC has 8 fans almost 4 TIMES the diameter and airflow of yours and at extremely quiet levels and that isn't uncommon anymore at all. The market for PC oriented fans has grown tremendously which has provided the funding and competition to develop ever better fan solutions.

Fans are like fuses. They protect items that cost orders of magnitude more that their cost. Yes, your existing fan design will likely continue to operate for many years, but newer designs do a better job by far and at a fraction of the cost of what they serve... including your hearing.
 
Old 04-11-2021, 09:50 AM   #18
enorbet
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If you'd like to have some great fun while you also learn about fan design and development check out this guy's YT Channel that features 3D Printer fan production, often quite hilarious, but always interesting and educational.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=olWfObN_u-8
 
Old 04-11-2021, 01:10 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by enorbet View Post
progression all in one direction - more and better... more CFM airflow at less power usage and less noise. My current Main PC has 8 fans almost 4 TIMES the diameter and airflow of yours and at extremely quiet levels and that isn't uncommon
Wow--eight fans. You must do many intense-heat-generating things. I don't.
 
Old 04-11-2021, 01:39 PM   #20
enorbet
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Not at all unusually so, just videos, gaming and some DAW work. However I am from a deep electronics background and understand how damaging heat is to electronics so I always shoot for ultra cool. My Main is a Z490 Asus with an i5-10600K CPU overclocked to 5.0 GHz. It's Heatsink/Fan combo has 2 x 140mm fans just on the CPU. My GPU is an old GTX 1070Ti which would already be replaced with a 3080Ti if they were possible to get anywhere near MSRP but the 1070Ti has 3 fans to itself. The Corsair PSU has a 140mm fan which I'd actually forgotten reporting 8 total, so I actually have 9 since there are 3 case fans - 2 x 140mm and 1 x 120mm.

At idle this beast runs around 42C dead quiet. At full bore for extended periods on the heaviest games I play or benchmarks I run, with ambient these days around 27C it maxes out at around 58C. For such a powerful PC a Delta T of around 30C is impossible to achieve with less airflow, and not likely at all quietly without so many large fans. Water-cooling could do it, but I'm skeptical still of running water-cooling inside PCs.
 
Old 04-11-2021, 01:43 PM   #21
newbiesforever
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet View Post
Not at all unusually so, just videos, gaming and some DAW work. However I am from a deep electronics background and understand how damaging heat is to electronics so I always shoot for ultra cool. My Main is a Z490 Asus with an i5-10600K CPU overclocked to 5.0 GHz. It's Heatsink/Fan combo has 2 x 140mm fans just on the CPU. My GPU is an old GTX 1070Ti which would already be replaced with a 3080Ti if they were possible to get anywhere near MSRP but the 1070Ti has 3 fans to itself. The Corsair PSU has a 140mm fan which I'd actually forgotten reporting 8 total, so I actually have 9 since there are 3 case fans - 2 x 140mm and 1 x 120mm.

At idle this beast runs around 42C dead quiet. At full bore for extended periods on the heaviest games I play or benchmarks I run, with ambient these days around 27C it maxes out at around 58C. For such a powerful PC a Delta T of around 30C is impossible to achieve with less airflow, and not likely at all quietly without so many large fans. Water-cooling could do it, but I'm skeptical still of running water-cooling inside PCs.
I don't trust the idea of holding water inside a box of electronics, either.
 
Old 04-12-2021, 05:36 AM   #22
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It's funny to hear the "new = improved" rule (which I generally agree with) and vacuum tubes mentioned in the same paragraph.

To some (but not me) vacuum tubes in Audio are the exception that proves the above Rule. Richardson Electronics in the UK probably still exist and they sell vacuum tubes for broadcasting, & Audio. There were a number of plastic welders & wood glue curing machines built around 6-10 KV in my repairing days. Currents were 1-3A and you could find valves to do 100KW without trouble by raising the voltage. Radio Luxembourg broadcast with 1 million watts - an amazing (valve) output which was heard all over Europe.

Some people (but not me) love the sound of valve amplifiers. But by every specification that could be measured, valves are worse. They have a THD of about 10%; TID, mains hum, noise, weight, are all worse - much worse. Valves use bases which collect dust and also are a noise source. Capacitors are undersized, ancient, and a noise source in themselves. But to not a few, the 'valve sound' is magical. I view it as similar to the 'tea or coffee' choice; they certainly are different.

There are equal and opposite opinions in about equal quantity, and the debate never ends.There was a company over here called Pye which made audio & tvs in the 1960s/1970s. Their chief engineer refused to let any product out without a valve audio stage, which hurt their sales and contributed to their demise; but whatever way they were set up they could only replace him when he retired.

Last edited by business_kid; 04-12-2021 at 05:37 AM.
 
Old 04-12-2021, 06:51 AM   #23
Jan K.
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Talking

Quote:
Originally Posted by newbiesforever View Post
I don't trust the idea of holding water inside a box of electronics, either.
Been running that for the past 15 years... temp stays in the 35-38 degree range summer and winter...

Some BIOS has settings for fans, where you can disable/ignore fan speed reading. If not set to either of these - or water pump not set to cpu fan speed sensor - MB won't boot.
 
Old 04-12-2021, 07:43 AM   #24
enorbet
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Hello business_kid

Sort of On Topic - I guess I wasn't clear since I don't subscribe to the concept that New always == Improved. Every choice is a tradeoff and use-case dependent.

Drifting Off Topic -
In this case while I love the sound of valve amps for high fidelity audio reproduction but have mostly caved into convenience though I vastly still prefer 2 + 1 and don't go for wraparound speaker arrays of any kind... 5/1, 7/1 all gild the lily in my book. However I played guitar for a living for about a decade and worked in and around the Music business much of my life and nothing but valves work properly for me with musical instruments since in that field they are not mere reproduction devices but musical instruments unto themselves.

That said you appear to lack knowledge of high end valve amps like MacIntosh, Carver, and numerous other brands that do not suffer from the ills you list and instead have pleasing, sometimes jaw-dropping, psychoacoutic effects. I was trained in Electronics and have a degree but far more importantly extensive long term experience in every aspect of valve audio gear including design, layout and construction and learned that numbers are only the story we know how to measure. Where human brains and hearing are involved there is a great deal we don't know how to measure. An example of this was the long argument about distortion in ICs that was denied for years by many engineers until finally someone using Fast Fourier Transforms and other tools with increased sensitivity and reduced reaction time measured and proved TRANSIENT InterModulation Distortion and slew rate became a far more important spec and design goal.

I could go on for days but suffice it to note that valves can create the effect of a 3 dimensional soundstage that is like standing at the Taj Mahal compared to SS being like a postcard of the Taj Mahal by comparison.

That has to be experienced to be grasped so I'll just end with some specs of a moderately decent valve Hi Fi amp for anyone curious and apologize to OP for drifting at such a sharp tangent.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carver 275 Specs
Rated Power:
4Ω 75 Watts Per Channel
8Ω 75 Watts Per Channel
16Ω 60 Watts Per Channel
Frequency Response: +0, -3dB from 16Hz to 35kHz.; Flat 20Hz – 20kHz 0.25dB
Distortion: Less than 1.0%
Power Bandwidth: 24 Hz to 28 kHz without filters
Line Inputs: Gold-plated RCAs​
Speaker Outputs: Gold-plated 5-way binding posts​
Input Impedance: 100 Kohms (RCA)
Gain: 29 dB (8 ohms)
Tube Complement: One 12AX7, two 12AT7s, four KT120s
Hum and Noise: Better than 100 dB below 75 Watts, A-weighted.
Bias: Rear panel potentiometer adjust, front panel meter
Output Transformers: Interleaved windings, super wide-band, low leakage inductance, proprietary design
Source Impedance: 1.7 ohms
Color: Sparkle Burgundy Red
Dimensions (WHD): 14" x 7" x 9.5"
Weight: 19 lbs.
Country of Origin: United States of America
Chassis and Tube Warranty: 5 years
 
  


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