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Old 06-27-2019, 03:56 AM   #61
cynwulf
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I have to say that while sugar, tobacco and alcohol in particular are damaging to health - and the damage caused by the latter could be seen as an argument against ever legalising anything similar / worse - to me it's just grasping at straws to bolster the case for legalisation to mention all manner of common foods substances such as coffee.

People have simply been "drugging" themselves since the year dot, this doesn't necessarily lead to the conclusion that all drugs should be legal to "decriminalise" drug use.

Also if you simply decriminalise in e.g. one western affluent country, you are simply creating a bigger problem and more suffering in the countries where the producers and traffickers operate. In other words, without a global consensus, decriminalising simply fuels drug gangs and cartels in other parts of the world.

The "what I put into my own body" [is my own business] argument doesn't hold up either. This problem exists today with alcohol and particularly those who choose to drive or take risks with their safety and the safety of others, while under the influence. Once what you put in your body starts to affect others around you, it becomes a societal problem and not a personal problem.

So while I disagree with just outright blanket bans, zero tolerance and fueling the black market, the "legalise everything" lobby have got it wrong as well. There are multiple reasons why this is an age old problem and why no country in the world has got it right to date.

Last edited by cynwulf; 06-27-2019 at 04:02 AM.
 
Old 06-27-2019, 05:04 AM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cynwulf View Post
I have to say that while sugar, tobacco and alcohol in particular are damaging to health - and the damage caused by the latter could be seen as an argument against ever legalising anything similar / worse - to me it's just grasping at straws to bolster the case for legalisation to mention all manner of common foods substances such as coffee.
For the record; that wasn't an argument I was making, but that said, it is still a truth that things like caffeine are indeed "drugs".

Quote:
People have simply been "drugging" themselves since the year dot, this doesn't necessarily lead to the conclusion that all drugs should be legal to "decriminalise" drug use.
It doesn't necessarily lead to the opposite either.

Quote:
Also if you simply decriminalise in e.g. one western affluent country, you are simply creating a bigger problem and more suffering in the countries where the producers and traffickers operate. In other words, without a global consensus, decriminalising simply fuels drug gangs and cartels in other parts of the world.
The reason why some countries have decriminalized some drugs is for that very reason; to take the market away from the cartels and alike. Why is someone going to risk prosecution when they can buy it legally? Again, most people (as shown in countries that have decriminalized weed) wouldn't bother turning to the cartel, when they could just go to a legal shop instead.

Quote:
The "what I put into my own body" [is my own business] argument doesn't hold up either. This problem exists today with alcohol and particularly those who choose to drive or take risks with their safety and the safety of others, while under the influence. Once what you put in your body starts to affect others around you, it becomes a societal problem and not a personal problem.
That's why you have "drink driving laws", and other related laws. Which also brings us to another valid point; if it's good enough for things like Alcohol to be legal, and taxes can be collected; then why should someone who chooses to smoke pot instead be prosecuted? Hardly fair.

Quote:
So while I disagree with just outright blanket bans, zero tolerance and fueling the black market, the "legalise everything" lobby have got it wrong as well. There are multiple reasons why this is an age old problem and why no country in the world has got it right to date.
While I'm not necessarily in favour of "legalising everything" either; even the Australian Medical Association agrees that people should not be criminalized for simply using drugs currently illegal. I also don't think most people would be arguing to "legalise everything". It doesn't mean you cannot regulate drugs like weed, as shown in other countries, this is very possible. They tried a blanket ban on Alcohol back in the day too, guess what? People done it anyway, just behind closed doors, and no taxes being paid on it. It doesn't make any logical sense to spend MORE money on trying to win the "war on drugs" when it's doomed to failure (as shown), when you can MAKE money on it, and regulate it.
 
Old 06-27-2019, 05:46 AM   #63
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jsb, to clarify somewhat - I have not argued for the "war on drugs" or criminalisation - I'm simply voicing my opinion that it's a complex problem with no simple solution.

You have made the argument about legalising taking the business away from cartels, which from a local perspective is certainly true, but where then do these theoretical "legal suppliers" get their cocaine, cannabis and heroin from? If they are too expensive, especially due to taxation, then the cheaper contraband will still flow in. We have this problem in the UK with "under the counter" alcohol and tobacco, simply because taxation on those is far too high.

One can argue endlessly for sensible and fair taxation, but history shows that the taxes on legal "addictive" products go up and up - as the government knows that the users are dependents and will pay and it's easy money for the treasury. This is all done under the guise of these products damaging health and raising taxes being a supposed deterrent. As a result of ever increasing taxes on alcohol in the UK we are now drinking more than ever...

Smoking on the other hand has declined, not because of higher taxation, but because of increased awareness of the health implications.

Unless the whole supply chain is legal, worldwide, then you have suffering, poverty and the same destructive cycle - essentially moving the problem to another country.

So while I'm mostly on board when it comes to not locking up drug users for simply possessing and using, I'm not so much buying into the "lets make addictive substances that cause misery and death on a global scale into taxable goods" thing.

Last edited by cynwulf; 06-27-2019 at 05:51 AM.
 
Old 06-27-2019, 06:51 AM   #64
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Fair enough cynwulf. For the record; I wasn't and don't totally disagree with what you said.

Clearly it's a very complex issue, and clearly not one that only affects one single country. And I think we can also agree on people merely using drugs should not have to be criminalized.

My main points were; I don't agree with governments (nor anyone else for matter) imposing "their morals" on people by way of law. Unless someone is actually doing something that IS affecting others, then to my way of thinking, it's no one else's business but that person's. I also don't believe in using "drugs" as an excuse to play "nanny". As to me, I don't need any government to play "nanny". Many people drink and/or smoke pot and don't cause anyone else any problems, so unless that person(s) is actually causing a problem, then it doesn't matter what drugs they are doing. Also, you don't have to be doing drugs to cause others a problem, or threaten other people's safety. There are plenty of people that are plain careless whether they've had any drugs or not. Do you send someone to court because they've tried suicide? No, it's a health issue, even though in at least some people's eye's, it's a sin to do that.

To me personally, it's comes down to how many pros verses cons there are. And when I look at the pros verses the cons, there are more pros to legalising in some form verses not.

Either way, and at the end of the day; different countries are never going to agree on a common drugs policy. For seconds, it's either an outright ban (which clearly doesn't work and hasn't), or it's legalisation and regulation in some form. That's inescapable.
 
Old 06-27-2019, 12:13 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by cousinlucky View Post
Hello Hazel!! Here upon Staten Island a " drug epidemic " is in progress with people over dosing almost daily!! Heroin, pills, etc.,etc. are being sold everywhere and the police and politicians are being corrupted!! Narcotics will never be made legal here because too many people are making huge profits keeping drugs illegal!! Here is an article about a 5 year old with 30 hits of heroin at school!!
http://www.trentonian.com/article/TT...NEWS/160919901
I think you should mention that doctors in the US are now prescribing opiates for everything (even a simple headache or back pain). Don't you think this plays a role in this drug epidemic?
 
Old 06-27-2019, 12:16 PM   #66
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Absolutely! The big pharma companies do not care about the end results (humans being addicted), they care only about $.
 
Old 06-27-2019, 01:11 PM   #67
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The saddest thing about the abuse of medical opiates like Fentanyl is that it can create a backlash which makes doctors less willing to use them freely for terminal cancer patients, where they can make all the difference between a dignified death and a protracted horror. I believe this is actually happening in some European countries.
 
Old 06-28-2019, 07:46 AM   #68
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The need for control slows us more than anything but instead of teaching, they child*proof... won't matter *when the rabbits liked Tribbles burst through the gates!
 
Old 06-28-2019, 10:36 AM   #69
enorbet
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzy_mood View Post
I think you should mention that doctors in the US are now prescribing opiates for everything (even a simple headache or back pain). Don't you think this plays a role in this drug epidemic?
Oh really? Where and in what century? Most doctors are heavily influenced if not controlled by the organizations they belong to these days and the bean counters who lean on the organizations (there are extremely few single doctor's offices left) to judge behavior and policy on economics and risk avoidance. Virtually ALL pain related medication is now handled in the US by specific niche Pain Management Clinics and they have problems giving Tylenol 3 for cancer patients let alone tooth extractions. This takes place on every level, too.

Way back in 1982 a friend of mine was severely injured in a car accident that totaled both vehicles. She was bedridden by doctors orders for over a month and since her Percodan prescription was for one week, she asked m to pick it up for her one week. We lived in a town population of 180 and the closest town with a Pharmacy had a population of around 3000. Everybody knew everybody. The pharmacist took over a half hour to confirm the prescription and I asked if there was some problem. He said, "Let me put it like this. In the last 10 years I got visited and records reviewed exactly twice... until last year when they came three times in one year. They are gonna get somebody and it's not gonna be me"

In 2000 my brother's wife who made a heavy six-figure income at Intel and worked two other part-time jobs but who had both Fibromyalgia and a spinal injury went to fill her prescription for pain meds as she had done for over two years from the same doctor and at the same pharmacy. A new pharmacist took one look at the written prescription and said "Something is wrong here. I won't fill all of this... maybe one third, but this can't be right". No amount of documentation of monthly refills all prescribed from the same doctor would change her mind and my sister-in-law couldn't go without so she had to give in and take a third.

I ask you, where do you get your idea it is easy to "score drugs" overly prescribed legally? Furthermore just how big of a dent do you suppose this puts in illegal drug traffic?

As for the Pain Management Clinics I personally suffer from a chronic pain condition and I signed an Opiate Contract with a clinic giving them expressed permission to randomly urine test me to verify that the appropriate blood levels were present proving I wasn't over medicating OR "diverting" for money. Still I was treated like a shameful addict though I never failed one test of the many forced on me over the 9 months I stayed with them and also though they were giving me less than 1/4 of my previous dosage. It was a horrible experience and at the end I weaned myself off opiates and just accepted I could never work a regular job ever again since keeping a schedule was impossible due to pain and sleep disturbance.

Does this seem to you to be irresponsible handing out like candy behavior?
 
Old 06-28-2019, 10:55 AM   #70
enorbet
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cynwolf I have to ask you if you read the original post and followed up with what has occurred in Portugal? FYI it surely looks like the entire country has benefited from decriminalization of all drugs. Additionally every state in the US that has decriminalized cannabis has the very same results - less crime, less illegal drug use and vastly more tax dollars in the coffers. It sure looks like it works far beyond the legal philosophy which is a heavy consideration all on it's own.

It's not illegal to own a firearm but it is illegal to kill someone with one. Firearms were created for the expressed purpose of damaging or killing things. Living in the country I happen to think we should be able to own them. There are pests and threats that should be scared away or killed to protect my family and my livelihood, not daily, but sometimes. Possession of cars is legal but misuse can cause civil and criminal consequences. I think that if I behave irresponsibly with a deadly large and fast vehicle I should be prosecuted. Similarly if I even threaten anyone else's health and well-being by some irresponsible drug use I should be prosecuted for that, too. How though is it justified that the mere possession of any drugs is treated as more dangerous to society than the mere possession of guns or cars?

I can't see one argument in which the validity of anyone telling me what "drugs", let alone proven legitimate medicines, I can own that does not present clear and present danger beyond a reasonable level makes any sense or benefits anyone with the possible exception of Big Pharma.
 
Old 07-03-2019, 02:32 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by cousinlucky View Post
People abuse substances so that they can continue to lie to themselves; day in and day out!! The easiest person to fool and delude outright is the person you look at in the mirror!!
That's a blanket statement. Could you please be more specific? You can use me as an example to elaborate on your statement and make your case, I don't mind. I promise I won't be offended but by all means be brutally honest and detailed in your evaluation. It can't be any worse than some of the stories I've told about myself and I may gain some insight from an objective viewpoint.

If I decide to smoke weed like a Rastafarian and play video games all day till my eyes are so bleary I can no longer see the screen, what am I lying to myself about? If I'm delusional and fooling myself about something it's better to know now than continue to live a lie. Just tell me what it is so I'll know. I can't tell.

Recreational marijuana use is going to become legal in Illinois in 2020. I used to live there and am thinking of moving somewhere else anyway. It could make all the difference.
 
Old 07-03-2019, 05:10 AM   #72
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Addiction is a disease, said the preacher but not the teacher.
 
Old 07-03-2019, 12:00 PM   #73
jazzy_mood
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Originally Posted by enorbet View Post
Oh really? Where and in what century? Most doctors are heavily influenced if not controlled by the organizations they belong to these days and the bean counters who lean on the organizations (there are extremely few single doctor's offices left) to judge behavior and policy on economics and risk avoidance. Virtually ALL pain related medication is now handled in the US by specific niche Pain Management Clinics and they have problems giving Tylenol 3 for cancer patients let alone tooth extractions. This takes place on every level, too.

Way back in 1982 a friend of mine was severely injured in a car accident that totaled both vehicles. She was bedridden by doctors orders for over a month and since her Percodan prescription was for one week, she asked m to pick it up for her one week. We lived in a town population of 180 and the closest town with a Pharmacy had a population of around 3000. Everybody knew everybody. The pharmacist took over a half hour to confirm the prescription and I asked if there was some problem. He said, "Let me put it like this. In the last 10 years I got visited and records reviewed exactly twice... until last year when they came three times in one year. They are gonna get somebody and it's not gonna be me"

In 2000 my brother's wife who made a heavy six-figure income at Intel and worked two other part-time jobs but who had both Fibromyalgia and a spinal injury went to fill her prescription for pain meds as she had done for over two years from the same doctor and at the same pharmacy. A new pharmacist took one look at the written prescription and said "Something is wrong here. I won't fill all of this... maybe one third, but this can't be right". No amount of documentation of monthly refills all prescribed from the same doctor would change her mind and my sister-in-law couldn't go without so she had to give in and take a third.

I ask you, where do you get your idea it is easy to "score drugs" overly prescribed legally? Furthermore just how big of a dent do you suppose this puts in illegal drug traffic?

As for the Pain Management Clinics I personally suffer from a chronic pain condition and I signed an Opiate Contract with a clinic giving them expressed permission to randomly urine test me to verify that the appropriate blood levels were present proving I wasn't over medicating OR "diverting" for money. Still I was treated like a shameful addict though I never failed one test of the many forced on me over the 9 months I stayed with them and also though they were giving me less than 1/4 of my previous dosage. It was a horrible experience and at the end I weaned myself off opiates and just accepted I could never work a regular job ever again since keeping a schedule was impossible due to pain and sleep disturbance.

Does this seem to you to be irresponsible handing out like candy behavior?
I see I've touched a sensitive fiber in you. And yes, really. Just have a look a these links:

https://www.cdc.gov/drugoverdose/epidemic/index.html

Quote:
In 2017, the number of overdose deaths involving opioids (including prescription opioids and illegal opioids like heroin and illicitly manufactured fentanyl) was 6 times higher than in 1999.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/30711195

Quote:
The United States opioid epidemic is a nationwide public health crisis. Initially driven by increased consumption and availability of pharmaceutical opioids, an increasing number of opioid overdoses are now related to heroin and illicitly manufactured fentanyl and fentanyl analogs.
These links are from the US authorities, so I think it should speak by itself.

I don't know, maybe you haven't read the news in the last 10 years, at least.

Last edited by jazzy_mood; 07-03-2019 at 12:02 PM.
 
Old 07-03-2019, 02:17 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by jazzy_mood View Post
I see I've touched a sensitive fiber in you. And yes, really.
Anybody who can taper themselves off opiates like enorbet has a strong will, determination and deserves respect. Especially someone who actually needs pain relief and suffers through it.

When I was 13 I got shot in the left ankle with a .410 shotgun from a distance of maybe a foot in a hunting accident. (No, I didn't shoot myself.) It blew away the tendons I moved my toes down with, the nerves I felt on the bottom of my foot with and put a hole in my leg you could pas a golf ball through. I spent the next 2.5 months in isolation due to a staph infection and was getting Demerol shots for pain every 4 hours. By a couple week I was medically addicted and had to kick it cold turkey before I got out. But I never forgot that feeling of euphoria it gave me and when I got out went looking for it.

That's the lifestyle I lived for the next 40 years. I've seen and done things most people have only seen in the movies and have no regrets. When my close friends who were doing the same thing as me started dying I didn't need genius to know who was next. I went to a doctor who prescribed me Suboxone to get myself clean. There is no feeling of euphoria but it floods your opiate receptors so you aren't sitting around all day thinking about opiates. It gave me the opportunity to cut old ties, get my mind right and change my life. That took 10 years but when I thought I was ready tapered myself off and had an easy time of it. I don''t even think about it anymore.

I'm not asking for the same respect, don't need it and don't care whether or not I have it. I chose to live that lifestyle and it made me who I am today. I like myself, am at peace with myself and comfortable in my own skin. All my friend are dead now but I was strong and smart enough to survive and live to tell the tale.

Anyone who thinks it's an easy thing to do is like someone standing at the bottom of a mountain with a giant boulder in front of them talking about how easy it would be to roll it up the hill when they haven't got a rock in their pocket and doesn't garner mine.
 
Old 07-03-2019, 02:56 PM   #75
jazzy_mood
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Originally Posted by Trihexagonal View Post
Anybody who can taper themselves off opiates like enorbet has a strong will, determination and deserves respect. Especially someone who actually needs pain relief and suffers through it.

When I was 13 I got shot in the left ankle with a .410 shotgun from a distance of maybe a foot in a hunting accident. (No, I didn't shoot myself.) It blew away the tendons I moved my toes down with, the nerves I felt on the bottom of my foot with and put a hole in my leg you could pas a golf ball through. I spent the next 2.5 months in isolation due to a staph infection and was getting Demerol shots for pain every 4 hours. By a couple week I was medically addicted and had to kick it cold turkey before I got out. But I never forgot that feeling of euphoria it gave me and when I got out went looking for it.

That's the lifestyle I lived for the next 40 years. I've seen and done things most people have only seen in the movies and have no regrets. When my close friends who were doing the same thing as me started dying I didn't need genius to know who was next. I went to a doctor who prescribed me Suboxone to get myself clean. There is no feeling of euphoria but it floods your opiate receptors so you aren't sitting around all day thinking about opiates. It gave me the opportunity to cut old ties, get my mind right and change my life. That took 10 years but when I thought I was ready tapered myself off and had an easy time of it. I don''t even think about it anymore.

I'm not asking for the same respect, don't need it and don't care whether or not I have it. I chose to live that lifestyle and it made me who I am today. I like myself, am at peace with myself and comfortable in my own skin. All my friend are dead now but I was strong and smart enough to survive and live to tell the tale.

Anyone who thinks it's an easy thing to do is like someone standing at the bottom of a mountain with a giant boulder in front of them talking about how easy it would be to roll it up the hill when they haven't got a rock in their pocket and doesn't garner mine.
I didn't know Enorbet had gone through it, and I can only guess how hard must be to taper it off. It wasn't my intention to be disrespectful, but it is a fact that the current opioid epidemics in the US is partly due to doctors prescribing opioids for anything. That's precisely my point, opioids must be prescribed for certain conditions and situations where the pain is unbearable.
 
  


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