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Old 09-16-2016, 08:08 AM   #16
Jeebizz
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I still wonder how that 'war on drugs' is going so far.............

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YfALyTZHMOE
 
Old 09-16-2016, 11:58 AM   #17
enorbet
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@ cousinlucky - An easily explained increase of 7% in a category that just barely makes the Top 10 (and is in incredibly low numbers compared to the Top 5) nationwide is hardly a reason to conclude that "society is indeed falling apart". Here's the facts from the CDC

Quote:
Originally Posted by Center for Disease Control 2015
Number of deaths for leading causes of death

* Heart disease: 614,348
• Cancer: 591,699
• Chronic lower respiratory diseases: 147,101
• Accidents (unintentional injuries): 136,053
• Stroke (cerebrovascular diseases): 133,103
• Alzheimer's disease: 93,541
• Diabetes: 76,488
• Influenza and pneumonia: 55,227
• Nephritis, nephrotic syndrome, and nephrosis: 48,146
• Intentional self-harm (suicide): 42,773
NOTE - Apparently Overdose up 7% in 2016 bumped "Intentional" out of 2015 10th spot even though it is possible that some of those constitute "Intentional" as well. So please note that only overdoses are singled out when they fit in with other specifics in both Accidents and Intentional. Incidentally, the unlisted greatest cause of death at ~780,000/year is medical mistakes of which almost 200,000 are from mistakes in prescribing or filling prescriprions of legal drugs. Also consider that marijuana has exactly ZERO deaths yet is the same Schedule I as heroin. It is obviously an arbitrary choice and focus.

Now the reason(s). Apparently only common in the past couple years, heroin dealers will take a batch of a few hundred of packets and dose one or a few with a drop of Fentanyl, a synthetic opioid which is something like 10 times as powerful as heroin, knowingly planning on a few overdoses as dramatic demonstrations of the potency of their "brand" to increase sales - a simple case of "bait and switch" in it's most callous and ruthless form.

Add to that, Baby Boomers who grew up in an era when opioid painkillers were more readily available now when old age and disease has many in the grips of chronic pain yet finding what works for them nearly impossible to obtain legally (there are auto accident victims and cancer sufferers who are told to use Over The Counter preparations and "grin and bear it"!) at least some percentage are reportedly seeking other less than legal means of relief. This used to be mainly imported drugs from less restrictive countries, like Canada and Mexico, via Internet sales. Fear of legal retribution due to well-publicized increases in scrutiny and screening of all imports has driven some out of the Medical system and into the clutches of illegal local dealers.

Once again it is Prohibition creating the problem, just as Bathtub Gin, not to mention gun battles over turf, killed much larger numbers only AFTER Prohibition of alcohol. Want to increase a product's value? Make it scarce.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Credence Clearwater Revival
Take you a glass of water
Make it against the Law
See how good the water tastes
When you can't have any at all
Bootleg, Bootleg..
Quote:
Originally Posted by All In The Family
Gloria - Daddy do you realize tens of thousands of deaths every year are caused by guns?

Archie Bunker Would you feel any better Little Girl if they was pushed out of windows?

Last edited by enorbet; 09-16-2016 at 12:03 PM.
 
Old 09-16-2016, 12:57 PM   #18
cousinlucky
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Presently on Staten Island ( New York City's smallest borough in size and population ) we have had the most deaths from overdoses this year; more than all of the other boroughs!! So locally the residents feel pretty nervous about the " drug problems "!!
 
Old 09-16-2016, 02:02 PM   #19
rokytnji
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Here is Texas.

We don't care how they hang in NYC or it's boroughs.

Their living conditions have no say in our part of the country. I bet folks in Kansas, Idaho, California, Colorado, South Carolina, Florida, Hawaii, Oregon, Nebraska, Vermont, North Dakota, Montana, and other states feel the same way.

Life may be falling apart there. But you are only speaking for yourself. Not me or my area, or others and their area.

Drug laws are big business in Texas. 1/2 the state works the judicial system. It helps keep down the Mexicans.
Not that I approve of any of this.
I bet locking poor people up in New York state is big business also.

It says something sad about Staten Island when the poor people are cornered into hopelessness and use heroin just to forget how much it sucks to live there.

Edit: Back when I was in the USMC. I went to Manila and Subic Bay on a WESTPAC.
Manila was no bed of roses for the poor either.

2nd Edit: Besides. Justice is only applied after the measure of capital the accused has to throw at the legal system and it's employees. Everyone knows. The blind eye of justice has one eye uncovered for the rich. But both covered for the poor.

Just recently. A rich well to do swimmer was let out of jail on a rape conviction. Got less time than a
shop lifter.

Last edited by rokytnji; 09-16-2016 at 02:13 PM.
 
Old 09-16-2016, 07:55 PM   #20
cousinlucky
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http://www.silive.com/news/index.ssf...rt_river_index
 
Old 09-16-2016, 09:08 PM   #21
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Mexico is turning into a lawless country because of the drug demand in the US. They are arming and training a culture of outlaws. This was the case in other countries and now is getting closer. The murder rate there is though the roof. Police and Army personnel are gunned down in the street along with their families. Is that what you want in your town?

I don't know what the answer is but if it were me, I'd make everyone that wants to use drugs pay a $1000 license fee and make them go to an emergency room for a day each year. Maybe then they could see what drugs do to people. Maybe less for weed but if you've seen people high no matter what they suck at driving.

Crime is only a big business in the US because of stupid crooks. I used to be in the oil field and construction. It's pretty easy to see how they could get caught.
 
Old 09-16-2016, 10:45 PM   #22
enorbet
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jefro View Post
Mexico is turning into a lawless country because of the drug demand in the US. They are arming and training a culture of outlaws. This was the case in other countries and now is getting closer. The murder rate there is though the roof. Police and Army personnel are gunned down in the street along with their families. Is that what you want in your town?
Apparently as a country, we (the US and others) didn't learn from the rise of Organized Crime, corruption of Law Enforcement, Valentine's Day Massacres, etc. that prohibition creates crime and criminals and doesn't solve health issues, largely because the issues aren't seen as health issues but as moral issues that just need the application of more dollars and more horrific force to "win".

It's curious that one can be hanged in Singapore for cannabis yet that business is thriving, while for the past 16 years Portugal has effectively decriminalized mere possession of a 10 day supply of ALL drugs, including heroin and cocaine, and though drug use has not reportedly dropped, neither has it increased (disproving the fantastic concept that by decriminalizing government sends a message "that it's OK" and children will pick up drugs at an epidemic pace) plus, drug-related crime and deaths are dramatically down and HIV is down by a whopping 75%.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jefro View Post
I don't know what the answer is but if it were me, I'd make everyone that wants to use drugs pay a $1000 license fee and make them go to an emergency room for a day each year. Maybe then they could see what drugs do to people. Maybe less for weed but if you've seen people high no matter what they suck at driving.
Given that equation, and that alcohol is the number one cause of driving fatalities, should we charge those who use alcohol $10,000.00 and make them go to an emergency room one day a month? Exactly how would that solve anything?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jefro View Post
Crime is only a big business in the US because of stupid crooks. I used to be in the oil field and construction. It's pretty easy to see how they could get caught.
Not quite. Crime is big business because of Vice Laws which drive up the profits and generally it is the low level "soldiers" who take the fall. Th Kingpins keep lawyers as well as Judges and Police "on retainer".

The idea of decriminalization is not necessarily fueled by so-called "bleeding heart liberals crying for degenerate addicts" {though there are some of those) it is fueled by the pragmatism of "harm reduction" to the general populace as well as our cherished systems of Law. That it is also better for addicts (at the very least less death and infectious disease, fewer homeless and more productively employed people) is just frosting on the cake. The War on Drugs costs many billions of tax payers dollars all around the world and not one country is an example of that accomplishing anything positive and the negative costs are obvious as well as not so obvious.

Put simply, decriminalization is provably and overwhelmingly better for everyone except Kingpins and their cronies.... and maybe career Vice Cops.

Last edited by enorbet; 09-16-2016 at 10:47 PM.
 
Old 09-17-2016, 01:40 AM   #23
hazel
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet View Post
Given that equation, and that alcohol is the number one cause of driving fatalities, should we charge those who use alcohol $10,000.00 and make them go to an emergency room one day a month? Exactly how would that solve anything?
Well, it would go some way to bridging the funding gap in our National Health Service!


Quote:
The idea of decriminalization is not necessarily fueled by so-called "bleeding heart liberals crying for degenerate addicts" {though there are some of those) it is fueled by the pragmatism of "harm reduction" to the general populace as well as our cherished systems of Law. That it is also better for addicts (at the very least less death and infectious disease, fewer homeless and more productively employed people) is just frosting on the cake. The War on Drugs costs many billions of tax payers dollars all around the world and not one country is an example of that accomplishing anything positive and the negative costs are obvious as well as not so obvious.
I can give you another example from the UK. During the 80's, the Edinburgh police did a big crack-down on injectable drugs. They confiscated every syringe they could find. The inevitable result was multiple use of those kits that remained. Addicts gathered in "shooting galleries" where a single syringe would be passed from hand to hand. As a result, Edinburgh developed the highest rates of HIV infection and AIDS in the UK. Now we have official needle exchange schemes and addicts no longer contract HIV. But I can remember that when the exchange schemes came in, a lot of people objected to them on moral grounds.

Last edited by hazel; 09-17-2016 at 01:42 AM.
 
Old 09-17-2016, 11:13 AM   #24
enorbet
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Thanks Hazel. Specifics help. One set of specifics, that of "the Portuguese Decriminalization "Experiment" is that it is now on the front line of interest, extending to the UN. Governments everywhere at the very least are interested in the reduction of costs from decriminalization versus the drain on tax dollars that is the War on Drugs. A few politicians are beginning to recognize that not only is such a War ineffective at producing any positive results, it creates substantially negative results in many ways.
 
Old 09-17-2016, 11:29 AM   #25
cousinlucky
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Drug war folly:
http://www.fff.org/2016/04/26/drug-w...ng-thats-good/
 
Old 09-17-2016, 02:55 PM   #26
enorbet
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cousinlucky View Post
Cool article. Thanks.
 
Old 09-17-2016, 07:24 PM   #27
cousinlucky
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet View Post
Cool article. Thanks.
Here is another one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lmmhmKIW7rs
 
Old 09-17-2016, 07:37 PM   #28
jefro
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"can be hanged in Singapore for cannabis yet that business is thriving,"
You do know what the main business is in Singapore don't you??? It's secret banking by crooks who are hiding their money!!!!!! I should know, I have a few relatives there.


You spend a day in an emergency room or just a Friday or Saturday night. Tell me how you feel about drugs then!
 
Old 09-17-2016, 07:46 PM   #29
Fixit7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jefro View Post
Mexico is turning into a lawless country because of the drug demand in the US. They are arming and training a culture of outlaws. This was the case in other countries and now is getting closer. The murder rate there is though the roof. Police and Army personnel are gunned down in the street along with their families. Is that what you want in your town?

I don't know what the answer is but if it were me, I'd make everyone that wants to use drugs pay a $1000 license fee and make them go to an emergency room for a day each year. Maybe then they could see what drugs do to people. Maybe less for weed but if you've seen people high no matter what they suck at driving.

Crime is only a big business in the US because of stupid crooks. I used to be in the oil field and construction. It's pretty easy to see how they could get caught.
Mexico has been lawless and corrupt for many years.

Even if they did not grow/make drugs, they would still be corrupt.
 
Old 09-17-2016, 09:35 PM   #30
frankbell
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Quote:
Mexico has been lawless and corrupt for many years.
Mexico has been poor and corrupt for many years. Poverty and corruption have a way of going together.

The recent increase in lawlessness over the past several decades is very much a direct result of the U. S. demand for marijuana and, more recently, cocaine.

I personally believe that marijuana should be decriminalized; I am skeptical as regards other less benign substances. Indeed, the criminalization of marijuana was very much the result Harry Anslinger's efforts protect his empire and find jobs for his enforcers upon the repeal of prohibition. In fact, up until the turn of the 20th century, few drugs of any sort were criminalized anywhere. Indeed, Britain once fought a war to protect opium trafficking in China.

One thing is clear. The "war on drugs" model is a failure. Indeed it has been more than a failure; it has been a disaster. (As an aside, if you want to talk about corruption, consider the corruption of "civil asset forfeiture," which incentivizes law enforcement to bust anyone and everyone, not for cause, but for profit.)

Doing the same thing harder means only more and harder failure.

A new approach is needed, one that does not wear kevlar vests and carry siege weapons.

I'm not quite sure what that new approach is, but I'm not a policy-maker. I'm just a citizen.

Last edited by frankbell; 09-17-2016 at 09:39 PM.
 
  


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