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Old 05-24-2024, 11:24 AM   #61
wpeckham
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hazel View Post
I'd just like to know why they have mass school shootings in America and we don't have them here.
The biggest reason is simply the number of guns in circulation per 1000 people. In the USA it is over 1000 (yes, there are more guns than people). In the UK it is far lower, and many of the UK firearms are shotguns for birding rather than automatic or semiautomatic firearms.
 
Old 05-24-2024, 11:29 AM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet View Post
@wpeckham - Post #57 once again focuses on numbers of deaths, not numbers of mass shootings. The stats show no correlation between numbers of events, only on the number of victims. Of course numbers of victims matter but even if guns were completely outlawed there would still be events and if anyone is determined for a high body count there are more effective tools than guns under your kitchen sink or in your garage.

Fixing the disease rather the symptoms is far more effective and has positive side effects instead of negative ones.
Actually the data is available for BOTH, and both the number of shootings and the number of casualties increased sharply when controls came off. And that is well documented.

But aside from that I want to mention that your comment begs the "nerf" solution. We do not need to regulate or tax guns if they do not HURT anyone! Guns that shoot sponge or marshmallow projectiles are generally not a problem to society. Which is silly, but illustrates the point that arguing that fewer shooters is more important than fewer casualties is just as silly. Avoiding having casualties IS EXACTLY the point!
 
Old 05-24-2024, 05:13 PM   #63
enorbet
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wpeckham View Post
Actually the data is available for BOTH, and both the number of shootings and the number of casualties increased sharply when controls came off. And that is well documented.
Please show me where since I quoted the 3rd link exactly that documented there was only 1 in 1982 BEFORE there was any assault weapons ban, precisely the same number as one of the years during the ban. There is no way to conflate that to a causal link.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wpeckham View Post
But aside from that I want to mention that your comment begs the "nerf" solution. We do not need to regulate or tax guns if they do not HURT anyone! Guns that shoot sponge or marshmallow projectiles are generally not a problem to society. Which is silly, but illustrates the point that arguing that fewer shooters is more important than fewer casualties is just as silly. Avoiding having casualties IS EXACTLY the point!
Well while i wholeheartedly agree that fewer casualties is a noble goal (none would be ideal, right?) Also FWIW for very practical reasons I am largely against Capital Punishment. I do not favor violence. Truly I'd like gun violence and ANY sort of violence to cease. I see this with HOW one accomplishes that as vitally important.

We could have zero mass shootings and zero casualties if we started a nuclear and biological world war and humans went extinct. That's obviously reductio as absurdum but dropping down several notches is not.

If a wound on your leg is allowed to fester and you begin to notice a red line following your veins going up your leg, you could prevent impending death and solve that by amputating the leg and that was done actually for centuries. Then along came Louis Pasteur and others with a path to better treatment with vastly less catastrophic collateral damage.

I get the impression that I could be convinced that some types of less intrusive and radical regulation that I currently find disagreeable, might find my mind changed given serious objective research while your mind is entirely made up and will never budge one nanometer. You seem to believe on faith that the problem is entirely about guns, and nothing will suffice absent their removal or "nerfing" to uselessness.

"Turning the other cheek" might conceivably deter some specific individual aggressors under specialized circumstances but show me any nation that ever turned back iron fist, jackboot control by non-violence.

On a more personal level, if the members in this thread were all living in one city and in the room with us during this debate one of those was intent on home invasion robbery, who do you think they would target as an "easy vic", you or me? Add to that, do you really imagine the results would be any less horrific if there were laws outlawing guns?

Last edited by enorbet; 05-24-2024 at 05:15 PM. Reason: typos
 
Old 05-24-2024, 05:25 PM   #64
shortarcflyer
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George had it correct from jump street.
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Last edited by shortarcflyer; 05-25-2024 at 11:37 AM.
 
Old 05-25-2024, 12:25 AM   #65
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@enorbet: where is the evidence that school shooters are starving and desperate and that's why they do it? Most school shooters come from comfortably-off families. The starving can't afford to buy powerful guns.

It is certainly true that English people, however much they may grumble about about freeloaders and benefit cheats, don't find it acceptable that anyone should actually starve to death or be turned away from hospitals because they can't pay for treatment. We pay our taxes partly to prevent that. But the kind of rigid class-bound society that you describe, of noblesse oblige and grateful peasantry, died out with Queen Victoria.

No, the plain fact is that in England the discontented youth take knives to school, not guns. And that's because it's not so easy to buy a gun here and most parents don't own a gun that their child can pilfer. We have had a horrendous amount of knife crime of late, much of it involving children, but each such incident leaves only one victim. A discontented American boy (it's always a boy!) can leave 20 dead, not because he's twenty times as angry but simply because having a gun allows him to do it. If he had tried to do the same with a knife, he would have been disarmed after only one or two.

Last edited by hazel; 05-25-2024 at 12:28 AM.
 
Old 05-25-2024, 11:44 AM   #66
shortarcflyer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hazel View Post
A discontented American boy (it's always a boy!) can leave 20 dead, not because he's twenty times as angry but simply because having a gun allows him to do it. If he had tried to do the same with a knife, he would have been disarmed after only one or two.
Incorrect, it is not always a boy! Do your research before you post false statements!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_N...chool_shooting

https://news.sky.com/story/nashville...lding-12843695

https://www.nbcnews.com/nbc-out/out-...atio-rcna77424

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news...hief-rcna76876

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/crime-c...oote-rcna76990
 
Old 05-25-2024, 03:23 PM   #67
enorbet
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hazel View Post
@enorbet: where is the evidence that school shooters are starving and desperate and that's why they do it? Most school shooters come from comfortably-off families. The starving can't afford to buy powerful guns.
Well, almost. It's even a subject of memes and Country songs that it isn't uncommon to see an $70,000.00 pickup parked in a single wide trailer home driveway (often with gun racks on the back windscreen) but that's not particularly important.

The poor and starving is a generalization, but the bullied and desperate is not. Their is a lot of Class based Fear and Loathing in the US. Within lower class families there is also a high incidence of alcohol and substance abuse as well as physical abuse that teaches by example that violence is the First Resort. So there is nowhere to turn for any sort of validation. It is happening in school and at home. Some few just snap.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hazel View Post
It is certainly true that English people, however much they may grumble about about freeloaders and benefit cheats, don't find it acceptable that anyone should actually starve to death or be turned away from hospitals because they can't pay for treatment. We pay our taxes partly to prevent that. But the kind of rigid class-bound society that you describe, of noblesse oblige and grateful peasantry, died out with Queen Victoria.
I am aware of and recognize that evolution so I'm not making a binary, 0%-100%, observation but there is a rather distinctive difference as far as I can tell.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hazel View Post
No, the plain fact is that in England the discontented youth take knives to school, not guns. And that's because it's not so easy to buy a gun here and most parents don't own a gun that their child can pilfer. We have had a horrendous amount of knife crime of late, much of it involving children, but each such incident leaves only one victim. A discontented American boy (it's always a boy!) can leave 20 dead, not because he's twenty times as angry but simply because having a gun allows him to do it. If he had tried to do the same with a knife, he would have been disarmed after only one or two.
Here again we are focusing on victim numbers not event numbers. That there are any events in schools like these, seems to me only takes a bit of time and increased hopelessness before someone decides to "up the ante" and they WILL find the means.

I hesitate to even mention this for fear of giving some disenfranchised desperate fool a hint, but have you ever considered the number of volatile, explosive, poisonous, etc chemicals you likely have in your kitchen and garage? Consider that most of the high body counts in terrorist attacks are rarely with guns but with chemicals, common chemicals. I won't list them but there is literally a powder keg in almost every home. If not, a stop at a hardware, feed, flower, or grocery store will supply plenty.

Now ad nauseum, I repeat, The Source Cause not the "tools" is the issue and the only truly effective means of reducing violent conflict of any kind.

Consider that in History, Athens and Sparta had a "rocky" relationship. Of those 2 which was more likely to attack the other violently and which would lose? Many bandaid solutions are like pushing on a held balloon. We depress in one side, and the organism responds by bulging out on another. Make certain the bulge is not in a critical position.
 
Old 05-27-2024, 07:44 PM   #68
shortarcflyer
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More on gun control.
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Old 05-30-2024, 12:54 AM   #69
starkid
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Threads full of USian gun enthusiasts tend to illustrate why much stricter gun control is needed.

I wonder how much the suggested shooting and safety classes teach people to deal with the personality traits that have led to so many gun owners shooting annoying neighbors, cheating spouses, etc. in blind rages. Plus this line that people try to draw between law-abiding gun owners and criminals is quite thin considering how murderer after murderer is found to have obtained their guns legally. They were legal gun owners right up until they murdered someone.

As for the scapegoating of the mentally ill, perhaps people who kill and injure wild animals for "sport" should be represented on the official list of mental conditions. Enjoying pointless violence should be a red flag for gun ownership.

What the U.S. needs overall is a radical change in culture. That would fix a lot more than gun violence.
 
Old 05-30-2024, 09:59 AM   #70
elbci
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When gullible gorbi sold us to the west for a slice of pizza, someone said "east europeans are like 12 years old". we were. stayed that way until Belgrade was bombed. now, seeing live on stream the mighty west crumbling away, it's amusing how ppl sound again like little kids.

Oh, I feel so free here in this trailing park. In 200 yrs of having this gun, my govt never took away no freedom from me. Well, there's the bank that took away my farm. And my house. And 5 of my son-in-law's start-ups. And the IRS. And the covid*... Ah, the Freedom...

NO!LETMESPEACK! No! I accept criticism if acceptable and safe. And open. Again, as I said: having an intestinal track is offensive to me and should be considered a mental disease... I will report you!

indeed west (also) needs civilisational awakening reset but the "new" culture owners are proposing is bs and the old culture that the gun ppl dream was impossible back then when they imagine it was.
 
  


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