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Old 05-22-2024, 02:59 PM   #46
shortarcflyer
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Old 05-22-2024, 09:01 PM   #47
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Old 05-22-2024, 09:23 PM   #48
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I notice that some people frame the discussion as anyone who does not agree with them attempting to "impose their will" on them, while being fine with imposing THEIR will on the ones they disagree with.
Generally each side attempts to paint themselves as the victims, even if or when they are heavily armed!

I am not a victim. I own arms. I have been a shooter since 1962, and a professional shooter from 1978 through 2004. I have never heard a politician run on a platform of taking arms away, or any platform that would remove my arms. The most common sense platforms I have heard or read would slow down the SALES of arms, and block the sale of arms that are those most commonly used for mass shootings, the ones that result in the most innocent deaths. And I am just fine with that.

Framing it as "they are coming for your guns" when they are obviously not or they would have taken them in the 1970s is just stupid. We need a healthy dose of reality and good common sense, and you are not going to get t hat form the NRA or the arms dealers!
 
Old 05-22-2024, 09:52 PM   #49
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The most common (and most slithery) "justification" for increased gun control is the idea it would stop "random" gun violence like in school shootings. I see this as an empty argument since it would do nothing of the kind. There has been 1 or 2 cases reported of very young kids with no bad intent bringing in a gun for "Show and Tell" and accidentally shooting someone, but education of the parents on how and where to store guns (and possibly the value of trigger locks) with little children in the home would better solve that.

As for teens and adults, Columbine should have taught everyone even triggered teens don't just wake up one day and decide, "Why not shoot up my school today?" They plan for it, sometimes over many weeks or months. Think about that for a moment, this is the definition of Murder 1, totally premeditated. They have literally decided on a criminal act so those kids will no doubt find ways to get guns, poison, bombs, whatever from illegal or hidden sources. Teens in gangs have been making homemade "zip guns" from hardware store items since the 50s. If criminals want guns they will get them. period. Anyone with a lathe can make guns. Kalashnikov designed and built the AK-47 in a home shop in the early 1940s. You think you can outlaw lathes and billets?

I saw a news item in which a paranoid schizophrenic man killed someone on a bus with a knife. There is no legislation to ever stop that but licensing rules should prevent violent mentally ill people from getting guns, at least legally or easily. I think it is important to 1) make sure "the cure" actually can cure, and 2) isn't worse than the disease. Don't forget or dismiss legal precedents and how they expand over time.
 
Old 05-23-2024, 09:36 AM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet View Post
The most common (and most slithery) "justification" for increased gun control is the idea it would stop "random" gun violence like in school shootings. I see this as an empty argument since it would do nothing of the kind. There has been 1 or 2 cases reported of very young kids with no bad intent bringing in a gun for "Show and Tell" and accidentally shooting someone, but education of the parents on how and where to store guns (and possibly the value of trigger locks) with little children in the home would better solve that.
1940s. You think you can outlaw lathes and billets?
You have a logical point, but it does not appear valid in the real world.
We have real world results, a test or experiment if you will, of the results of a protracted restriction on sales of military style arms. We had such a restriction from 1994 through 2004, and the rates of mass shootings dropped like a rock. IT did not eliminate them, but the number of shootings and the number of deaths dropped almost as soon as it passed and continued to drop until it expired.

So while there are arguments against it, claiming that it would not work will not fly: it works!
 
Old 05-23-2024, 10:25 AM   #51
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Thank you for your considered reply, wpeckham. I would like to see such stats and on a per capita basis.
 
Old 05-23-2024, 11:40 AM   #52
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So would I.

I see many summary reports, but nothing at the level of detail I would like. Only the FBI and certain institutions attempt to collect and report those statistics, but there is nothing forcing state and local authorities to cooperate so there CAN be missing data.

Nonetheless, there is evidence. See https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30188421/ as one example. Or https://www.politifact.com/factcheck...994-assault-w/ and you can get a LOT of numbers from https://www.statista.com/statistics/...ngs-in-the-us/

Total gun crime overall was not impacted nearly as much, in part because existing arms were NOT taken away form current owners (and there was and is not plan to take arms away), and in part because arms manufacturers quickly pushed arms compatible with large magazines that skirted the restrictions, and in part because there was already a significant level of handgun crime that was not impacted by the restriction. Mass killings were impacted, and based upon the trends in the statistics would have become more significant with time had the restrictions not been allowed to expire. Certainly sales, and mass shootings, went up as soon as the restrictions came off!

There is a lot of good reading out there on the subject, but look at the detail and comments. Some of the articles are garbage conclusions wrapped around excellent research, so you really need to read it all.

Beware of fluff/opinion pieces. There were a TON of articles making claims with no numbers or evidence behind them, and those are only evidence of the authors or reporters bias.

My take is that an automatic weapons ban will help, but a ban that is more dynamic and targets the specific features that support mass killings would be more efficient. Also, that if you want it to make a real difference it cannot just expire. You have to give it time, and the longer it is in place the more sure you can be that the difference will be measurable and clear.

Another way to look at firearm restriction is to look at the results in other countries where they have been implemented that are not terribly dissimilar to the USA. (Canada, the UK, Australia, etc) But real life is calling and I must away. Good luck with your research!
 
Old 05-23-2024, 02:45 PM   #53
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Not that I'll stop looking (who wouldn't want to discover what might reduce murders?) but thew first 2 links focus on numbers killed not on numbers of mass shooting incidents. Of course we can expect numbers killed to drop somewhat just as we know that the numbers killed with each new technology in warfare, like grape shot, the Gatling gun, airplanes, and the most scary and egregious, thermonuclear bombs increased since that was what they were designed to do. Of course it is tragically regrettable that anyone ever wishes to murder anyone, let alone in massive numbers, but such technologies are an effect of conflict and human emotions from either greed or desperation. If we can't reduce greed or desperation, we are NEVER going to make a substantial impact on murders of any kind.

The 3rd link however focused on numbers of events. Please note this quote -

Quote:
Originally Posted by statista.com 811487
As of December 6, there were 12 mass shootings in the United States in 2023. This is compared to one mass shooting in 1982, one in 2000, and 12 mass shootings in 2022.
1982 @1 was prior assault weapons ban while @1 in year 2000 was during the ban. Correlation? Causation? I suspect the increase to 12 in 2024 is a result of heavily emotional political division combined with the effects of Covid and the resulting collateral effects on supply lines and consumer goods pricing.

In my view, as much as is safely possible without flirting with eventual Martial Law or the Christian version of Sharia Law sought by Christian Nationalists, THESE are the areas of Cause where the most good can be achieved, not what weapons are at one's disposal. I'm quite confident that some singular private individual determined to murder as many as conceivably possible would be foolish to choose a gun. Explosives, especially fire bomb explosives, even Molotov cocktails and a lacrosse stick would dwarf any school shooting numbers of dead.

Do you really imagine that controlling glass containers or gasoline is warranted, I mean, to be "truly safe"? Truly and completely safe is not possible nor desirable since it is foolish to desire impossible things.

Greed and desperation, thats the crux in my view. Let's focus on the actual source causes, the disease not the band aids.
 
Old 05-23-2024, 03:36 PM   #54
enorbet
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BTW and somewhat in the same category, there has been an increase in both civilian deaths by police as well as hiring ex-military and installing military weapons for police. Does anyone propose taking their assault weapons away or do they propose better training?
 
Old 05-23-2024, 06:29 PM   #55
shortarcflyer
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'Nuf said!
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Last edited by shortarcflyer; 05-23-2024 at 06:58 PM.
 
Old 05-23-2024, 08:27 PM   #56
ntubski
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet View Post
BTW and somewhat in the same category, there has been an increase in both civilian deaths by police as well as hiring ex-military and installing military weapons for police. Does anyone propose taking their assault weapons away or do they propose better training?
There seems to be more emphasis on taking away the military equipment, but that might be in part because proposing better training is more complicated.

https://www.cato.org/cato-handbook-p...ilitarization#
Quote:
Congress should

• amend 10 U.S.C. § 2576a to stop transfers to local law enforcement agencies of any military equipment listed on either the Department of State Munitions Control List or the Department of Commerce Control List
https://www.aclu.org/issues/criminal...militarization
Quote:
Federal programs providing surplus military equipment, along with departments’ own purchases, have outfitted officers with firepower that is often far beyond what is necessary for their jobs as protectors of their communities. Sending a heavily armed team of officers to perform “normal” police work can dangerously escalate situations that need never have involved violence.
[...]
The change in equipment is too often paralleled by a corresponding change in attitude whereby police conceive of themselves as “at war” with communities rather than as public servants concerned with keeping their communities safe. We advocate for a return to a less dangerous, more collaborative style of policing. We should not be able to mistake our officers for soldiers.
 
Old 05-23-2024, 10:27 PM   #57
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So, perhaps one missed the graphics, or this
Quote:
Clinton’s office cited a 2019 study from New York University’s School of Medicine. A group led by epidemiologist Charles DiMaggio homed in on mass shooting deaths. (Other research has tracked the number of times mass shootings happened, which is not the same thing.)

Researchers define mass shootings in different ways. Following the FBI’s definition, DiMaggio’s group looked at incidents where at least four people died.

In raw numbers, they found that mass shooting deaths fell during the years of the ban, and rose afterwards. DiMaggio shared his data.

"During the ban period, there were fewer bodies," DiMaggio said.

The death toll from mass shootings went from 4.8 per year during the ban years to 23.8 per year afterwards.
Make sure you check the numbers reported or cited in the articles with the conclusions to make sure they actually reflect the data. This one appear to.

Last edited by wpeckham; 05-23-2024 at 10:29 PM.
 
Old 05-23-2024, 11:48 PM   #58
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I'd just like to know why they have mass school shootings in America and we don't have them here.
 
Old 05-24-2024, 09:27 AM   #59
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@wpeckham - Post #57 once again focuses on numbers of deaths, not numbers of mass shootings. The stats show no correlation between numbers of events, only on the number of victims. Of course numbers of victims matter but even if guns were completely outlawed there would still be events and if anyone is determined for a high body count there are more effective tools than guns under your kitchen sink or in your garage.

Fixing the disease rather the symptoms is far more effective and has positive side effects instead of negative ones.
 
Old 05-24-2024, 09:59 AM   #60
enorbet
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hazel View Post
I'd just like to know why they have mass school shootings in America and we don't have them here.
I suppose if anyone knew for 100% certainty they should run for office but I can venture a supposition starting with Economics and Culture.

AFAIK the UK still has both higher tax rates and people willing to pay them which supports widespread welfare. "The Dole" is still active, right? This is a forceful economic condition that shapes societies. While it may reduce motivation and competition (and produce Punk Rock attitudes like "No Future") very few are likely to starve to death or lack basic healthcare.

On the Culture side, though I gather the well off nevertheless look down their noses at "the Great Unwashed", those less well off are more commonly assessed as born into it rather than causing it by lack of character, brains and discipline. Such societies are considered "horizontal" in that it is accepted that extremely few can possibly rise up or fall down from the class into which they were born.

Capitalist societies are more vertical, though there is also a tendency to morph away from "every man can hope to become president" to a more rigid, more locked down, structure in late stages. That's probably just Human Nature to some degree. However the attitudes created while Vertical, still remain in the transition to Horizontal, which not only looks down on less fortunate but sees that condition as their own fault creating a climate (along with lower tax structures, especially on the wealthy) that fuels a disdain for basic healthcare including medicine, food and housing.

Such an environment largely caused by greed creates both desperation in the less fortunate with little or no emotional recourse that comes with acceptance of class borders powerfully affecting any sense of identity and "no future" other than staying the same or slow decline, becomes "I can easily go broke and die rather quickly, and horribly, homeless and forgotten, essentially discarded like yesterday's rubbish from one minor chance event". Along the way such folks are discriminated against, plundered, and bullied even in early childhood.

Lately in the US add to the mix, extreme division politically and an entire class of people who view progress as taking away what little advantage they think they used to have and large numbers of people actually flirting with ideas of civil war or violent overthrow of the government and it can be unsurprising that in such a large and diverse society there exists more violent acts. The competition in many US schools is extremely fierce and bullying, even violent bullying is not at all uncommon. "Back a rat into a corner...." There is some wisdom in school uniforms.

Maybe I'm stretching the analogy of the frog and boiling water too far, but at the very least I'm pretty confident this is at least a strong contributing factor.

Last edited by enorbet; 05-24-2024 at 10:03 AM.
 
  


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