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Old 02-20-2024, 11:21 AM   #31
_blackhole_
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sundialsvcs View Post
You can never "pass a law" to "control guns," because criminals will possess them anyway. (Fortunately, many of them don't know how to shoot ...)
Hmmmm... forget passing laws because criminals will break them anyway...?

Not sure about that. Many countries in Europe and elsewhere pass laws to control or prohibit firearms and it seems to mostly work. While criminals in some cases still possess weapons illegally, we have far less firearms related incidents and deaths per head of populations.

BBC article (sorry): https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-41488081

(scroll down to look at "an international comparison...")

Look at statistics for the UK. The US is about 5 times the population of the UK, but per head we don't come anywhere near to this:

Quote:
Data shows more than 50 people are killed each day by a firearm in the US.
https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk...ings/cbp-7654/

Quote:
The most recent data suggests that [in the UK] there were 35 homicides committed by shooting in the year ending 31 March 2021 6% of all homicides. Of these 35 victims, 11% were female and 89% were male.
I would go further to suggest that of the 89% of male deaths, a large proportion were in possession of a firearm themselves and/or involved in criminal activity. In other words: For the most part, the criminals are shooting each other.

So 35 homicides in 1 year, compared to 50 homicides per day.

But still the gun lobby in the US insists that arming more people with a firearm would prevent shootings?

The problem you have is that the whole gun ownership debacle in the US can't simply be put back in the box. The gun lobby are correct in one sense (and I'm sure they know it, and bear in mind they will have a business agenda with firearms being a multi billion dollar industry), that disarming all of the law abiding people, still leaves the guns in the hands of the criminal element. There's no quick and easy solution.
 
Old 02-20-2024, 04:33 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sundialsvcs View Post
You can never "pass a law" to "control guns," because criminals will possess them anyway.
#1 that is wrong, because we HAVE passed such laws. Sure we can do it, if we have the WILL.
#2 that is wrong because we can look at nations that have passed gun legislation and see the reduction in illegal firearms and firearm related crimes over time. In fact, if we just look at the USA and the difference in firearm crimes before, during, and after the ban on fully automatic weapons here the numbers clearly show that the ban worked, and saved lives. (Also that it did not deter legal ownership of arms, it just reduced general ownership of one particular class of arm.)
#3 there are other options. Many experts consider that outlawing a class of guns, or legislation to require more checks and licensing, while a good step, would be less effective than simply removing the restriction on bringing lawsuits against the manufacturers for the damage caused by the arms they market and how they market them. Corporations respond to lawsuits, and more when they LOSE a lot! The technology is there to make forearms that will only operate in the hands of the owner, which would make owning a firearm far safer. (Many/most (depending upon the time period you examine) home invasions that involve home owners or their families getting shot involve them getting shot with their own arms!) If motivated, the arms makers can solve many of these problems, and would support additional checks and licensing to mitigate THEIR risk.
 
Old 02-20-2024, 06:08 PM   #33
mjolnir
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wpeckham View Post
...In fact, if we just look at the USA and the difference in firearm crimes before, during, and after the ban on fully automatic weapons here the numbers clearly show that the ban worked, and saved lives. (Also that it did not deter legal ownership of arms, it just reduced general ownership of one particular class of arm.)
Just for clarification, you are talking about the "Firearm Owners Protection Act" of 1986, not The Public Safety and Recreational Firearms Act enacted as part of the Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act of 1994 (Federal Assault Weapons Ban)?
Quote:
Originally Posted by wpeckham View Post
...(Many/most (depending upon the time period you examine) home invasions that involve home owners or their families getting shot involve them getting shot with their own arms!) ...
Interesting, could you please provide a link.
 
Old 02-20-2024, 07:47 PM   #34
wpeckham
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mjolnir View Post
Interesting, could you please provide a link.
Actually I will instead withdraw the comment. After reading that article I since found an analysis of the study. it depended heavily on self-reported data by gun owners family members and those reports area not reliable. FYI the FBI crime statistics database does not have adequate granularity to generate useful statistics on the question. My conclusion is that we have to little reliable data to draw ANY conclusion.

I apologize for not checking before mentioning it.
an
A better supported statistic is #1 that less than 5% of gun owners who claim they own for self or home defense are ever recorded as having used their firearm in defense. And #2 Living in a home where one member is a gun owner raises the risk of death by 50%! That does include deaths by gun suicide, and I am not sure what we want to make of that. Also, suicide rates among gun owners are significantly higher than among non-owners, and no one seems to agree about why!

PS. those I can provide links for that I would trust, they are far better based.

Last edited by wpeckham; 02-20-2024 at 07:48 PM.
 
Old 02-20-2024, 08:15 PM   #35
michaelk
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Consider the mass shooting that just happened during the Superbowl victory parade in Kansas City almost a week ago. 22 people were injured, 1 person died and two people have been charged with crimes. Both Kansas and Missouri do not require a permit to carry, no training required.

Basically two strangers got into a dispute with each other and pulled their guns out. I don't know anything else about the suspects. As I understand, New York State Rifle & Pistol Association v. Bruen basically allows people to carry guns and defend themselves in public. The basic response from our great lawmakers is to get over it.

The "The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun" is a bit of a fallacy. Consider how many additional people might of been injured or killed if everyone just started shooting into a crowd of people.

True the math works out to 1.2 guns per person but it is only 45% of households that actually have guns.
 
Old 02-21-2024, 12:14 AM   #36
enorbet
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In general I'm not in favor of introducing new gun laws but I would like to see more consistency between states. For example there are some states that have no regulations restricting gun ownership for people with documented mental health problems. It's a bit sticky, but that should change imho. Gun show sales need to be supervised and have the same background checks that retail stores must meet. If background checks were better enforced then, I think we could reach a solid balance.

I frankly don't know what can ever be done about the common discrepancy between city dwellers and rural dwellers. Perhaps compulsory tested training would work but it's been my experience that rural families in general both need and respect gun safety while a much higher percentage of city dwellers just grow up without that natural education.

Whether you are in favor of much stiffer gun laws. same or less, I'm betting everyone will find this interesting and possibly surprising. This is the source of so-called "gun culture" around the world but with emphasis on the US. It's a fascinating history lesson.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L1iQUF1gQmI
 
Old 02-21-2024, 05:39 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wpeckham View Post
Actually I will instead withdraw the comment. After reading that article I since found an analysis of the study. it depended heavily on self-reported data by gun owners family members and those reports area not reliable. FYI the FBI crime statistics database does not have adequate granularity to generate useful statistics on the question. My conclusion is that we have to little reliable data to draw ANY conclusion.

I apologize for not checking before mentioning it. ...
No problem. I'm reasonably sure I've done something similar in the 20 years I've been here.
 
Old 05-21-2024, 10:20 PM   #38
shortarcflyer
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Most of the people I know and interact with that own and/or carry firearms do so for this reason; myself, my family, my relatives, and friends included:
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Old 05-22-2024, 08:54 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leclerc78 View Post
I'd never set foot on the US again in my remaining life. Americans (not all), be happy with your guns.
Funny you say that and I do not blame you.

I have talked to people who own multiple guns, and I mean lots of guns. When I ask why, most of them answers me by asking something like: "what if society collapses ?". In their minds, they see people charging onto their property to rape and pillage.

I answer if society collapses, you will have a lot more to worry about then that. Also, if your property gets invaded, you plus say 4 other family members will not be able to stop hundreds of these "invaders" for long.

To me if that is your worry, forget about guns, build a well stocked underground shelter and take up archery.

Luckily I live in an area with good Gun Laws, but every other day the US Supreme Court invalidates a Gun Control Law and the State needs to pass a replacement. It is like wack-a-mole.

And me, I do avoid areas of the US were people worships Guns.

I grew up in a rough area, when I was in Junior High, I knew at least 10 kids who if they could have gotten a gun, they would have shot up the school. But back then, no one owned guns and it was close to impossible for a kid to even see one, never mind getting one. FWIW, since then, the are has gentrified a lot.

To me, it is the easy access to guns I see as an issue. Personally I would come up with a tax plan something like this, and I believe the US Supreme Court would uphold it due to a precedent with the ACA:
  • If the household has 3 or more guns of any type, each extra gun is taxed at 5000 USD per year.
  • All AR type guns are taxed at 30000 USD per year
  • Ammo for all guns are taxed at 100 USD per bullet per year.
  • If caught with guns that should be taxed but are not, you get a 5 year mandatory sentence in jail.
  • A tax stamp will be provided for each gun taxed.

Last edited by jmccue; 05-22-2024 at 08:59 AM. Reason: grammer
 
Old 05-22-2024, 10:36 AM   #40
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I see above, we have people that want to impress their will on us because they don't like to use firearms. If you don't like firearms or want to use them, fine. Just don't try to inflict more rules and such on those that enjoy handling them, using them, and such -- responsibly. And protecting those that don't want to protect themselves (see above). We live in a supposedly free society. Laws are already on the books for misusing clubs, guns, knifes, etc. No need for more rules that ONLY affect the law abiding citizen. Life is a risk. I'd rather live free with some risk and be able to target shoot, knock down varmints, hunt, and of course for self protection when needed from human or natural predators (hopefully never, but stuff happens), Thank you very much. If I want to own 100+ firearms it should be just fine... Or a 100+ shovels if that is your deal. No different in my eyes. Misuse brings consequences.

Last edited by rclark; 05-22-2024 at 02:40 PM.
 
Old 05-22-2024, 02:01 PM   #41
shortarcflyer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rclark View Post
I see above, we have people that want to impress their will because they don't like to use firearms. If you don't like firearms or want to use them, fine. Just don't try to inflict more rules and such that enjoy handling them, using them, and such responsibly. And protecting those that don't want to protect themselves (see above). We live in a supposedly free society. Laws are already on the books for misusing clubs, guns, knifes, etc. No need for more rules that ONLY affect the law abiding citizen. Life is a risk. I'd rather live free with some risk and be able to target shoot, knock down varmints, hunt, and of course for self protection when needed from human or natural predators (hopefully never, but stuff happens), Thank you very much. If I want to own 100+ firearms it should be just fine... Or a 100+ shovels if that is your deal. No different in my eyes. Misuse brings consequences.
Yes, yes, yes! At least some one knows what living free (instead of being told how to live by a controling entity) is all about!

Last edited by shortarcflyer; 05-22-2024 at 02:03 PM.
 
Old 05-22-2024, 02:06 PM   #42
shortarcflyer
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For all of you gun hating gun naysayers out there.
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Old 05-22-2024, 02:09 PM   #43
shortarcflyer
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Old 05-22-2024, 02:18 PM   #44
shortarcflyer
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Old 05-22-2024, 02:53 PM   #45
shortarcflyer
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