LinuxQuestions.org
Review your favorite Linux distribution.
Go Back   LinuxQuestions.org > Forums > Non-*NIX Forums > General
User Name
Password
General This forum is for non-technical general discussion which can include both Linux and non-Linux topics. Have fun!

Notices


Reply
  Search this Thread
Old 01-26-2019, 04:52 PM   #241
enorbet
Senior Member
 
Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Virginia
Distribution: Slackware = Main OpSys
Posts: 3,525

Rep: Reputation: 3413Reputation: 3413Reputation: 3413Reputation: 3413Reputation: 3413Reputation: 3413Reputation: 3413Reputation: 3413Reputation: 3413Reputation: 3413Reputation: 3413

Quote:
Originally Posted by jsbjsb001 View Post
You really should watch the video I linked above for you, as it certainly does explain why what you're saying about "light speed" and such doesn't matter, and it is science based, not just someone saying "they've seen a UFO". So unless you can provide good reason as to why the science mentioned in that video is somehow flawed, well I think it explains why we don't have the required technology to be able to travel vast distances in space. It also explains that space is not indeed empty, anymore than the air we breathe here on Earth, and alike.
Hello again jsbjsb001. Please help me out here. Are you referring to the Huffington Post article you linked regarding the Citizen Hearings on Disclosure? I must apologize for not following it earlier but I didn't realize it was for me. I spent time on it and follow ups (many were greyed out and inactive today though) and I didn't see anything about why "light speed and such doesn't matter" nor any science. I'd very much like to see that so if it was a different link could you please direct me? Thank you in advance.
 
Old 01-26-2019, 05:22 PM   #242
enorbet
Senior Member
 
Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Virginia
Distribution: Slackware = Main OpSys
Posts: 3,525

Rep: Reputation: 3413Reputation: 3413Reputation: 3413Reputation: 3413Reputation: 3413Reputation: 3413Reputation: 3413Reputation: 3413Reputation: 3413Reputation: 3413Reputation: 3413
Ondoho I'd like to point out that there is a difference between Science and scientists. I'm sure you realize that but I want to emphasize it since it very often gets blurred and the distinction is very important. Scientists being human are, as you say, subject to navel gazing nearly as much as any other large group of people... some more than others. Science, however, in the long term is not. This trickles down to scientists in differing degrees but it is actually a common occurrence that areas of study worked on for many decades, where individuals have devoted their whole professional lives to a specific field of study and "what if?" only to have it disappear in a single instant.

Some like Fred Hoyle just like you point out cannot stop even as evidence keeps mounting, often for decades, and they end up ruining or at least "soiling" otherwise brilliant careers as was the case with Sir Fred. Many others however, though understandably crestfallen to say the least, have no problem with moving on. This happens more frequently in recent times because of the increase in power of our tools and the increase in communication globally and how quickly things are changing.

You can actually witness some cases of this as they happen because they have been candidly recorded. The data collected in LHC's search and subsequent discovery of the Higgs Boson threatened and did finally trash whole branches of Theoretical Physics. A single event caught by the ESA's Integral Space Observatory killed whole branches of Speculative Mathematical research, most regarding The Holographic Principle but also vast regions of study to find if Gravity is Quantum in nature... Huge impact!

Many of these people had spent 20-40 years developing their theories and in one afternoon their life's work just evaporated before their eyes. Their choice is to move on in Science or get out of the field altogether. See? In this manner Science cultivates personalities that are not only resilient to change, but expect them and are able to move on graciously with only the knowledge that they did good work and helped define what a thing is not, which is of course also important if less celebrated, especially in the Public Eye.

A lot of public perspective that not only scientists, but Science itself, indulges in "navel gazing" is created by PopSci, or journalists seeking an eye-grabbing headline for a subject they barely understand themselves and because in Journalism things need to be, or at least seem, both sensational and Black& White. Real Science is quite the antithesis of that. The video of Dr. Tyson's interview that I linked in post #238 above expands on that in a very clear but also entertaining manner (as is his custom) so I hope you watched that.

Last edited by enorbet; 01-26-2019 at 05:29 PM.
 
Old 01-26-2019, 10:13 PM   #243
jsbjsb001
Senior Member
 
Registered: Mar 2009
Location: Earth, unfortunately...
Distribution: Currently: OpenMandriva. Previously: openSUSE, PCLinuxOS, CentOS, among others over the years.
Posts: 3,836

Rep: Reputation: 2034Reputation: 2034Reputation: 2034Reputation: 2034Reputation: 2034Reputation: 2034Reputation: 2034Reputation: 2034Reputation: 2034Reputation: 2034Reputation: 2034
Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet View Post
Hello again jsbjsb001. Please help me out here. Are you referring to the Huffington Post article you linked regarding the Citizen Hearings on Disclosure? I must apologize for not following it earlier but I didn't realize it was for me. I spent time on it and follow ups (many were greyed out and inactive today though) and I didn't see anything about why "light speed and such doesn't matter" nor any science. I'd very much like to see that so if it was a different link could you please direct me? Thank you in advance.
No, I wasn't referring to that link, that just talks about eyewitness accounts of UFO's (from some very credible people that once again have zero reason to "make stuff up"). The link below was exactly what I was talking about - I linked it in post #236. But I will ask you to focus on the science, and not the person in the video, as this is very important. I must say that as un-expert as I am in such scientific related matters, from the research I've done about, it does seem to stack up. I can also say that I've watched that same video at least a few times now, and I cannot see anything that seems to be questionable or incorrect about it. But please review it for yourself, and once again pay very close attention to the scientific principles being talked about within, not the person talking about them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oSgxqfJSGX0

I'll very interested to hear from you about the above video.

Last edited by jsbjsb001; 01-26-2019 at 10:15 PM. Reason: more typos
 
Old 01-27-2019, 02:09 AM   #244
ondoho
LQ Addict
 
Registered: Dec 2013
Posts: 16,897
Blog Entries: 10

Rep: Reputation: 5026Reputation: 5026Reputation: 5026Reputation: 5026Reputation: 5026Reputation: 5026Reputation: 5026Reputation: 5026Reputation: 5026Reputation: 5026Reputation: 5026
enorbet, i did mean science itself.

science cannot, by definition, acknowledge things that are beyond (our current) science.

i admit that's a little extreme, and you rightly pioint out that scientists have been pushing the boundaries of science time and again, and science itself has grown.

but (imo) the ability to recognize alien life is not just beyond the current boundaries, but way, way further away.
science does not leap like that.
but the human mind can, by simply accepting it as the most likely scenario, without having any tools to prove it.

I don't think i'm being "popsci" by saying that (and i have in fact very little interest in any infotainment BS that might promote these views in a "scientific" way).
for me it's really a philosophical thing, a question of belief (but not in any religious or deist way).

_____________
my previous post for reference:
Quote:
Originally Posted by ondoho View Post
i forgot to add one term to my 2 previous posts:
anthropocentric.
how can we apply scientific rules, our human ways of looking at things, to determine how to define intelligence and how likely it is subsequently that such exists elsewhere?
yet scientists do exactly that all the time.
science, by definition, cannot look up from its perpetual navel gazing.

and my views are, by definition, unscientific.
 
Old 01-27-2019, 04:23 AM   #245
enorbet
Senior Member
 
Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Virginia
Distribution: Slackware = Main OpSys
Posts: 3,525

Rep: Reputation: 3413Reputation: 3413Reputation: 3413Reputation: 3413Reputation: 3413Reputation: 3413Reputation: 3413Reputation: 3413Reputation: 3413Reputation: 3413Reputation: 3413
Quote:
Originally Posted by jsbjsb001 View Post
No, I wasn't referring to that link, that just talks about eyewitness accounts of UFO's (from some very credible people that once again have zero reason to "make stuff up"). The link below was exactly what I was talking about - I linked it in post #236. But I will ask you to focus on the science, and not the person in the video, as this is very important. I must say that as un-expert as I am in such scientific related matters, from the research I've done about, it does seem to stack up. I can also say that I've watched that same video at least a few times now, and I cannot see anything that seems to be questionable or incorrect about it. But please review it for yourself, and once again pay very close attention to the scientific principles being talked about within, not the person talking about them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oSgxqfJSGX0

I'll very interested to hear from you about the above video.
That is indeed a fascinating video and it will take me some time to fully digest and research. It is always complicated to research and digest things which right from Jump Street assert things with "difficult access". This can be built on actual accidental loss like some of the Apollo Program losses or a calculated device for deception by con artists and woo salesmen. Since the very nature of Area 51 let alone S4 are speculation to all but a very few that causes severe difficulty immediately. That Mr. Lazar's claims of credentials cannot be verified despite MIT explaining how it is impossible for records to be expunged is another "gotcha". It is also problematic to consider how a man with such a high degree of scientific expertise and contacts to have been employed at a Top Secret Military Scientific Project would ever be so lacking for a high paying, low risk job to ever have to resort to prostitution.

All that aside thankfully one area that was unavailable for testing at the time that video was produced and an important fundamental part of his assertions is Element 115, now is available for study. On first viewing I wondered why such an element would produce antimatter in the first place but now that Element 115 (Muscovium) has been synthesized it turns out that it actually does! It creates Positrons. That could possibly be used to produce prodigious amounts of energy should we ever be able to produce sufficient quantities of the stable version of Muscovium which has a half life of 1200 years.

However one really problematic issue for me right from the start was Lazar's referring to the Strong Interaction Force that bonds atomic nuclei as "Gravity A". There is zero evidence that anything remotely like gravity is at work within atomic nuclei or that it ever "extends beyond the surface of a nucleus, even that of Element 115.

Even if we don't concern ourselves with that differentiation and for a moment assume this force can behave in some manner to create a gravity field (though highly unlikely) then we have to consider just what manner of amplification device could amplify such a force to do any work and what work could it accomplish if we did? Lazar uses a demonstration of an audio signal being amplified by an electrically powered amplifying device to demonstrate how some waves can be amplified. However he never asks the question nor demonstrates the 10,000 pound gorilla in the room. No known amplifier is or even CAN BE over 100% efficient or we would have the proverbial Pertpetual Motion Machine. We always have to put some percentage more power in to get somewhat less power out. This is why every electrical appliance we own that outputs say 100 watts requires 120-200 watts input power. TANSTAAFL right?

On top of all this I have to wonder exactly what would happen if we were indeed able to create an "intense gravity field" anywhere near any other field. We know that our Moon is kept in orbit by the mutual attraction yet their incredible masses don't create field sufficient to warp Spacetime enough to cause them to come crashing together. So if, however we might even imagine it could be accomplished, a device billions of times less massive could actually create a far greater intensity of gravity what would happen? How would we control what exact region of Spacetime is folded and what is not in order to end up at only one desired destination? ... or does he propose his aliens just accept many planets and stars colliding together as an acceptable cost of space travel? Just imagine a Black Hole coming near our solar system and apparently that gravitational field is insufficient to fold Spacetime anywhere near even four light years, so just how intense must this field be? and what are the consequences of that should it be possible for anyone to create such a monster?

For these reasons, so far anyway, I find Mr. Lazar's video highly suspect but I will reserve judgment until I look into this further.

Last edited by enorbet; 01-27-2019 at 04:26 AM.
 
Old 01-27-2019, 04:43 AM   #246
enorbet
Senior Member
 
Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Virginia
Distribution: Slackware = Main OpSys
Posts: 3,525

Rep: Reputation: 3413Reputation: 3413Reputation: 3413Reputation: 3413Reputation: 3413Reputation: 3413Reputation: 3413Reputation: 3413Reputation: 3413Reputation: 3413Reputation: 3413
Quote:
Originally Posted by ondoho View Post
but (imo) the ability to recognize alien life is not just beyond the current boundaries, but way, way further away.
science does not leap like that.
but the human mind can, by simply accepting it as the most likely scenario, without having any tools to prove it.
Most likely scenario based on what if not "tools to prove it"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ondoho View Post
I don't think i'm being "popsci" by saying that (and i have in fact very little interest in any infotainment BS that might promote these views in a "scientific" way).
for me it's really a philosophical thing, a question of belief (but not in any religious or deist way).
IMHO that's not PopSci but it's even less credible. It isn't any kind of Science at all, Pop or otherwise. At the very least it is jumping to conclusions. I think Dr. Tyson explains it very well when he says "If you say 'I saw something I can't explain.' that conversation is over." You can't immediately follow "I can't explain it" by "explaining" it.

This isn't to say that Science stands anywhere near the idea that alien life does not exist. Science sees the odds as pretty damned good!... or we wouldn't be devoting many many Man/Hours in many fields trying to discover it. I truly hope that we do discover some before I die. It's pretty high on the old bucket list but I'm not going to assume anything without evidence. Conflating wishes with reality is resorting to Magick and all instances of that I know of are just illusions.
 
Old 01-27-2019, 07:27 AM   #247
jsbjsb001
Senior Member
 
Registered: Mar 2009
Location: Earth, unfortunately...
Distribution: Currently: OpenMandriva. Previously: openSUSE, PCLinuxOS, CentOS, among others over the years.
Posts: 3,836

Rep: Reputation: 2034Reputation: 2034Reputation: 2034Reputation: 2034Reputation: 2034Reputation: 2034Reputation: 2034Reputation: 2034Reputation: 2034Reputation: 2034Reputation: 2034
enorbet, I'll make a couple of points;

* I can't force anyone to believe anything, it's always going to be up to each and every person decide for themselves what, if anything they believe or don't believe - only you can make that decision.

* I do realize that we are not talking about something "normal" (or at least that's normal to us humans - it's not), so it would not be reasonable to expect anyone to "just believe it". And this is not what I'm trying to do or expect. I must say that, sure, I would very much like to believe him, I really would, BUT believe it or not, I do try and force myself to remember that as much as it COULD be true, it might not be too. So I do understand your point there, I honestly do. I would be more worried if you had said something like, "oh really, WOW! They had a UFO from aliens!!! I guess I was wrong for not believing you...", let's face it, it's very difficult to "just believe" at face value, and that I will totally agree with you on, it is.

* I think you have a very good point in that; when we are talking about something that was/is supposedly a "secret government project", that access to ALL related information is next to, if not impossible, which as you point out makes it very difficult to work out what the exact truth is. That I have to also agree with you on, and do, and is a very good point to make.

* Regarding his "degrees"; I think you are wrong in saying that "records cannot be expunged/deleted". If you are talking about a highly classified (and that's a very important term BTW) government project, anything in relation to that would in fact be very possible. Classified records the government themselves have in a least some countries (including my own) are in fact deleted after a period of time. It also does not explain why Lazar is actually listed in records for Los Alamos Meson Physics Facility, as well as other records, which DO confirm that he had in fact worked there. As far as I know, Lazar hasn't sought to profit from his story, and from what I've seen has stayed pretty silent about it for a good 25 years, that does not sound like someone looking for fame, let alone and at the very least profit.

* Regarding Element 115 and amplifiers; remember that we are talking about an element and amplifiers that are supposedly from another world, so I don't think you can say that we have the knowledge to understand enough to make a lot of comment about that, let alone enough information about either to have an informed opinion about either. You said it yourself "no known amplifiers", the key word there is "known", as in, we don't know the exact science behind that yet, so I wouldn't act like we somehow do, we don't - same with what you say about "not having any evidence about "gravity within atomic nuclei", so I'd suggest we don't deny anything that might be true, until we can say it "could not be true full stop period", until we do know that for fact, for the same reason as above. Yes, you could say the same in the opposite way, I understand that, but it's pretty easy to take what could very well be the truth (NOT saying that means it IS the truth) and twist it to suit your own argument - so just bear that in mind before jumping to too many conclusions I would suggest.

I realize you said you were still researching what was said in that video, and please do, I'm not trying to influence you by any means. But please do take the time to properly understand exactly what he COULD have meant, not just what we currently know about science. It's probably more important to see if based on the scientific principles we ARE aware of, if it COULD have any basis, rather than trying to confirm or deny particular details, if that makes sense.

I've also found another video about Lazar that might help fill in some blinks for you, and that I found interesting myself. While it does cover some things about UFO's it's more about the story from the beginning and the impact the story has had since.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4s1b6pOTJ08
 
Old 01-27-2019, 12:57 PM   #248
ondoho
LQ Addict
 
Registered: Dec 2013
Posts: 16,897
Blog Entries: 10

Rep: Reputation: 5026Reputation: 5026Reputation: 5026Reputation: 5026Reputation: 5026Reputation: 5026Reputation: 5026Reputation: 5026Reputation: 5026Reputation: 5026Reputation: 5026
Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet View Post
Most likely scenario based on what if not "tools to prove it"?
based on the assumption that the opposite (we're the only planet in the whole universe to ever develop life) is much, much less likely.
nothing else. no facts, no proof, no theories. sorry.
 
Old 01-27-2019, 02:37 PM   #249
Trihexagonal
Member
 
Registered: Jul 2017
Location: Land of 1000 Nights
Distribution: FreeBSD, OpenBSD and Solaris
Posts: 195

Rep: Reputation: 223Reputation: 223Reputation: 223
Quote:
Originally Posted by jsbjsb001 View Post
I've also found another video about Lazar that might help fill in some blinks for you, and that I found interesting myself. While it does cover some things about UFO's it's more about the story from the beginning and the impact the story has had since.
Some of the most interesting things I've seen online have been of what are supposed to be structures on the Moon and Mars and other strange Mars areas that look like forests or life forms of some kind. I spent quite a bit of time looking at and watching movies about that type of thing in general when I first got online. I saw the film clips and documentaries on Bob Lazar and you can hardly separate him from John Lear. Both have interesting backgrounds and stories to tell.

But John Lear lost all credibility IMO with his claim of a "soul catcher" on the Moon and that info supposedly came from Bob Lazar:

Quote:
“John says on coast 2 coast that a massive cube has been found on the moon, and that this cube is responsible for not only holding human souls here on earth, but that afterere was you die, the cube pulls your soul to it, and then erases your memory, and then reinserts your soul into a new baby to repeat the process over and over again.

… the moon was brought here from another star system long ago, as part of the experiment … and that Earth was taken over about 200 thousand years ago, and Humanity is a genetically engineered slave race”

https://esotericjenavi.wordpress.com...-soul-catcher/
There should be youtube videos about it. I'm not going to drill down further than that article because it eventually leads to the the same place they think demons and demi-gods akin to the Old Ones in an H.P. Lovecraft story are going to inhabit robot bodies and bring about Biblical End Time Prophesy.

All bots love jitte.

As a side note, I met Big Daddy Don Garlits of racing fame years ago on a UFO type board at GeoCities and he told me he believed the moon was hollow. I asked him if he wasn't worried what people would think about him saying that and he said he couldn't care less. He was already old and famous and after all, he was Big Daddy Don Garlits.
 
Old 01-27-2019, 09:03 PM   #250
enorbet
Senior Member
 
Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Virginia
Distribution: Slackware = Main OpSys
Posts: 3,525

Rep: Reputation: 3413Reputation: 3413Reputation: 3413Reputation: 3413Reputation: 3413Reputation: 3413Reputation: 3413Reputation: 3413Reputation: 3413Reputation: 3413Reputation: 3413
Quote:
Originally Posted by jsbjsb001 View Post
* Regarding his "degrees"; I think you are wrong in saying that "records cannot be expunged/deleted". If you are talking about a highly classified (and that's a very important term BTW) government project, anything in relation to that would in fact be very possible. Classified records the government themselves have in a least some countries (including my own) are in fact deleted after a period of time. It also does not explain why Lazar is actually listed in records for Los Alamos Meson Physics Facility, as well as other records, which DO confirm that he had in fact worked there. As far as I know, Lazar hasn't sought to profit from his story, and from what I've seen has stayed pretty silent about it for a good 25 years, that does not sound like someone looking for fame, let alone and at the very least profit.
I think it is fair to say that no security is stronger than during wartime and some of the tightest security that has ever existed was effected surrounding the Manhattan Project. Despite huge concerns over Oppenheimer's loyalty there is no confusion over his role there and certainly not his education background including whatever degrees from which Universities, despite the fact that he was under some of the most severe scrutiny due to his political affiliation. There are a few Cold War examples, like the Yugoslavian rocket scientists that were secretly pulled from their homes and families telling them they'd died (phony funerals were held) and brought to the US, but even that didn't stop one Yugoslavian scientist from meeting his daughter he'd never gotten to know, decades later. That level of secrecy was possible mainly because the scientists were not born nor educated and working in the US. Even being from a Communist country didn't erase where he worked and went to school, who he married, etc.

MIT is only one of the degrees Lazar has listed and they deny he ever went there, let alone received any degree, and furthermore denies that it is even possible to erase all records of who went to school there let alone received a degree(s). This is just one of the degrees Lazar claims to have earned but anyone one of them not panning out is enough to spoil the whole bunch. Surely you can see the odds that he simply lied outweigh complete erasure massively.

There is a large club of ex-Area 51 workers ( http://www.roadrunnersinternationale.com/ ) that have met from time to time for many years and now they are allowed some freedom to speak on some subjects. A considerable amount of CIA and Area 51 information has been declassified and large numbers of scientists are now pretty well known to have worked there but none of them has a passkey card saying anything that reveals their location unlike Lazar who asserts he worked ant the even higher security S4 location. As hard as it is to prove they worked there, they do have declassified photos of themselves on what was then secret projects and NONE of them has had their background erased and for a very simple reason. It is far more secure to simply misdirect than it is to suddenly disappear. People don't think twice about "Yeah, I work at Fort Dix" but raise eyebrows when whole families disappear and records are destroyed, unless you imagine people who originally handled those records were also destroyed, and then you can see it just goes logarithmic. Again, Lazar just doesn't at all fit the pattern of any known secrecy workers. None.

As for his silence and motivation, I can only speculate in ways hopefully consistent with other known human motivations and methods. Lazar seems not only articulate but in possession of a thorough, bright and calculating, organized mind. It's quite possible he is aware that once a case is made and seen to have a growing impact, it's better to not say anything more and not add to or deviate from the original story exactly because some of it (less now, 30 years later) was impossible to scrutinize. Adding or changing only increases risk.

I haven't researched if he has made substantial money from this story yet but I can't deny it is very likely an excellent retirement program. Perhaps more important is the second part of that Fortune and Fame deal. His name, face, and story are now known by millions of people all over the world. His name will be ringing out for a long time. That is huge motivation for some but that unfortunately includes some really smart serial killers who just want to go down in history as in the top few of some widely recognized category, even if that category is despicable to some, even most others. Bottom line is I can't know his motivation. All I can do is try to apply Science that I do know to his story and see what shakes out. Speaking of that the remark regarding stable isotopes has already been addressed ie: an isotope with a half life of 1200 years but that is not the big hole.

The biggest holes are (1) what would really happen if such a thing actually did exist, a device to create an intense gravity field, and (2) let number 1 really sink, see the expanded comments below for number 1 in and see what may be the coup de gras at the end of this post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jsbjsb001 View Post
* Regarding Element 115 and amplifiers; remember that we are talking about an element and amplifiers that are supposedly from another world, so I don't think you can say that we have the knowledge to understand enough to make a lot of comment about that, let alone enough information about either to have an informed opinion about either. You said it yourself "no known amplifiers", the key word there is "known", as in, we don't know the exact science behind that yet, so I wouldn't act like we somehow do, we don't - same with what you say about "not having any evidence about "gravity within atomic nuclei", so I'd suggest we don't deny anything that might be true, until we can say it "could not be true full stop period", until we do know that for fact, for the same reason as above. Yes, you could say the same in the opposite way, I understand that, but it's pretty easy to take what could very well be the truth (NOT saying that means it IS the truth) and twist it to suit your own argument - so just bear that in mind before jumping to too many conclusions I would suggest.
Whether or not he or anyone ever worked with Element 115 whose source was "another world" that doesn't change the fact that we now have Element 115 and the source doesn't matter one whit. That's part of the definition of "Element". FWIW the reason that I used "no known amplifiers" is because it breaks down into to parts. The first is that we don't have a clue what manner of design would amplify either Gravity or The Strong Force. You couldn't just plug it into your home stereo any more than your stereo could double as a Ham radio set unless some components could handle radio frequencies or demodulated frequencies.

The second part involves fundamental Laws of Physics. While at the subatomic level fields do pop in and out of existence from what we think of as "nothing" (or "thin air" if you like) their time of existence is so short they are incapable of being employed to do anything accept at the subatomic level. It is not possible to "get something at no cost". It takes energy to get energy. A good example is Heat Pumps which under certain specific conditions appear to have efficiencies greater than 100% because they don't create energy under those conditions they just move it, but there is a cost in that the actual source is depleted and will ultimately be exhausted unless "refilled" by the Sun or some other energy source. Viewed as a whole, they too do not get something for nothing. It is inconceivable that it is possible to move energy levels of any kind, let alone far in excess of Black Holes without already having similar levels of energy to move it.

By far the biggest holes in Lazar's statements is if everything else was inconceivably somehow true, there is still the killer issue of what would happen when suddenly a gravity field is created where none existed and how would that be directed to a single point or what effect it would have on surrounding Spacetime and the other gravitational masses in it. We are not talking about just negating Gravity in a specific location (which though making it substantially easier to move about, would propel nothing - First Law of Motion) we are talking about literally folding Spacetime which he displays as two points on graph paper, conveniently disregarding how that would be so strong yet so tightly limited to involve only two extremely specific points. This is extremely suspect and far more likely to be false. Nothing, not even super massive black holes does this. Even the collision of two black holes which created gravity waves detected by LIGO were not directed to any one point but instead were radiated out in all directions. There is not a single case of amplified or directed gravity anywhere in the Universe under any conditions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jsbjsb001 View Post
I realize you said you were still researching what was said in that video, and please do, I'm not trying to influence you by any means. But please do take the time to properly understand exactly what he COULD have meant, not just what we currently know about science. It's probably more important to see if based on the scientific principles we ARE aware of, if it COULD have any basis, rather than trying to confirm or deny particular details, if that makes sense.
Hopefully above you can see that is exactly what bothers me. Because of the issues I have now explained further nothing in Science says it works like he says or even COULD work that way and now we have access to a key element (115) that we didn't back in 1990.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jsbjsb001 View Post
I've also found another video about Lazar that might help fill in some blinks for you, and that I found interesting myself. While it does cover some things about UFO's it's more about the story from the beginning and the impact the story has had since.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4s1b6pOTJ08
Regarding that video I'd like you to consider the expanded (1) and add (2) and we'll begin with quotes from the Lazar and the film's producer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Lazar
With ET technology <note: Lazar earlier noted "both constructive and destructive> someone could literally rule the world
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeremy Corbell
Is Bob telling the truth, 'cuz if he is, if any of that is true, it is a GAME CHANGER!
Please stop and consider the above reflections and how real those are. Please imagine what would be done, whether by the CIA, the Military or the Federal Government If such a potential existed. Since Bob also said he actually witnessed one of nine saucers flying, in other words, operational (btw how did we get 9 more than the one that allegedly crashed at Roswell?) why hasn't the allegedly different and special stable isotope been reverse engineered or at least 9 saucers worth of the isotope been used to at the very least create the Ultimate Big Stick that one paltry demonstration of would cause all other countries Military to just literally give up in dismay and as Lazar said "rule the world"? After some 30 years I can't imagine some big wig General didn't push for that.

Consider that one letter to President Roosevelt saying that a far lesser Big Stick was only theoretically possible in less than 1 year had 100,000 plus experts and workers and a budget that would reach over Ten Billion Dollars. Also consider the stimulus to any economy, especially during recessions, with only a rumor of such a "game changer" solution on the horizon. I currently find it hard to imagine our military and government just sitting on this and waiting for 30 years and without one single other "whistle blower" in all that time. Please remember this last part, number 2, is only speculation based on past events that just adds fuel to the scientific fire from number 1 that roasts this whole story.

I'm still interested enough to continue delving into it, but I'm not "holding my breath". It doesn't look good so far.

Sorry to be so long but it, and I think by design, is a really big, convoluted subject.

Last edited by enorbet; 01-27-2019 at 09:04 PM.
 
Old 01-27-2019, 10:54 PM   #251
jsbjsb001
Senior Member
 
Registered: Mar 2009
Location: Earth, unfortunately...
Distribution: Currently: OpenMandriva. Previously: openSUSE, PCLinuxOS, CentOS, among others over the years.
Posts: 3,836

Rep: Reputation: 2034Reputation: 2034Reputation: 2034Reputation: 2034Reputation: 2034Reputation: 2034Reputation: 2034Reputation: 2034Reputation: 2034Reputation: 2034Reputation: 2034
Look enorbet,

I can understand why you have questions about the explicit details of what was claimed by Lazar. I can truly understand this, and as I said before, it would be quite worrying to me if you had just believed everything he said at face value. So I do honestly understand the point you are making, in that: based on what we currently know, there are some serious and very legitimate questions regarding the details of what was claimed, I truly do understand your point there. But I will suggest once again, and as has been stated already, we don't know all there is to know, we are talking about some very complex concepts that we don't even have all of the details about yet. So I once again would advise you not to rush to too much judgement once again, while please do research the details mentioned and this is only reasonable, just once again bear in mind that a) we don't have all of the details about what was claimed b) what science suggests COULD or COULD NOT be true isn't necessarily what IS true, like what I was saying above.

Regarding his alleged degrees from MIT I'll make a couple of points;

* I think the video in post #247 makes a very good point in that, and as George Knapp pointed out; the headline is "UFO's being tested at Area 51/S4", not whether or not Lazar did or didn't have a degree from MIT. The reality is that Lazar told people what time the UFO's were being tested, at least some of those same people video'd the same UFO's being tested, without that being public knowledge, before most people even knew what the Internet even was, let alone had it themselves, so it's an inescapable conclusion that he must have known that somehow. This supports the idea that he had in fact worked at Area 51/S4. I'll also (and I've checked this as well) make the point that if you look at Google's own satellite photos, you will see what clearly look like man made structures either on top of, or on the side of the Papoose Mountains (where S4 is supposedly located - or at least "one of the S4's"/the one Lazar claimed to have worked at), and nothing for miles around them - other than what we know exists there, and more to the point, what has been disclosed by the US Government. It WAS confirmed by George Knapp that there was/is an S4 location at Area 51, which was confirmed BY Area 51 themselves, who also said that "classified" work was going on there in 1989. And now asking the same question, they saying there is "nothing on any map" mentioning an S4 location, pretty suspect - why did they say there WAS back in 1989, if there is no such place ?

* As far as what "other workers" that have worked at Area 51 say; there are some that have indeed supported what Lazar has claimed, and if your saying that because there is a "club" of former workers that meets every so often, and they say they have never heard of Lazar, well this doesn't mean anything, and I'll tell you why; a) They may not have been working at the same part of the Area 51 installation as Lazar b) They therefore could well have had different ID badges, there would be no guarantee that they would have had the same ID badges, particularly if they did not work in the same part of the base - please look at the badge Lazar claims to have had, it looks very specific to me personally, in that; it only mentions things that appear to be only related to S4, and not separate parts of the Area 51 installation. If you pay close attention to what Lazar is saying, then it does very much appear that workers that worked at S4 where segregated from other workers there - for good reason if what Lazar is claiming is indeed true. That would only be logical in that case.

* Some "big wig General" who cannot have such technology duplicated could not put a reasonable case to the government to use such technology, so this is also just irrelevant, and a distraction, which is exactly how one would use disinformation to discredit the whole idea from having any truth to it - whether is really does have any truth to it or not. So that's meaningless, and still doesn't mean that Lazar is lying.

Last edited by jsbjsb001; 01-28-2019 at 12:48 AM. Reason: spelling corrections
 
Old 01-28-2019, 09:22 AM   #252
enorbet
Senior Member
 
Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Virginia
Distribution: Slackware = Main OpSys
Posts: 3,525

Rep: Reputation: 3413Reputation: 3413Reputation: 3413Reputation: 3413Reputation: 3413Reputation: 3413Reputation: 3413Reputation: 3413Reputation: 3413Reputation: 3413Reputation: 3413
Hello jsbjsb001 - I am 72 years old and essentially retired so I have quite a bit of free time and in the past few days I have spent roughly 12 hours researching Bob Lazar and his story. Because I have confidence in the scientific method and also agree with Carl Sagan that "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" I have looked for any evidence, let alone any extraordinary evidence, in two separate areas, 1) The credibility of the claimant, and 2) The credibility of the claims.

1) - Personal Credibility - Without going into all the data I've located on Lazar as a credible person I will mention the most obvious and easily checked that you can check on for yourself. It's brief because I recognize that even a sociopathic liar is capable of the truth sometimes so it is not the ultimate test of the validity of a statement or story, only a somewhat important side note to be considered. Lazar has offered only a few forms of evidence, mainly his alleged qualifications (degrees), his W2 form, and his ID Badge. None of them hold up.

The only school that has any record of him even attending is a Junior College. The process of earning higher degrees is recorded by many people over a period of years and all of that cannot be erased without "erasing" those people. His claim of degrees are absolutely false and any claim that they were erased is the weakest of "blowing smoke". His W2 form is incredibly easy to discredit since the version of the form does not fit the time and the social security number does not belong to Lazar but to a woman. His real SS number is known and none of the workplaces have any record of either a title, an income commensurate with anything much more technical than working with photography. Lazar finally years after the intial story admitted that the ID Badge is a "composite" - He created it. It is not real. Some other "Ufologists" claim some of the legal charges against him included "Perjury" but I didn't follow up on that on the basis of cost/benefit in that already his credibility is extremely low and as I said, that's not most important.

2) - Credibility of Claims on a Scientific Basis -
His claim regarding nuclear Gravity A is preposterous at any level, let alone extending beyond the field of the nucleus. We don't yet know the exact details of what Gravity is but we do know 1) the degree of it's strength and the manner in which it operates to an extremely precise degree and also 2) exactly what it is not. It is NOT electromagnetic and is so weak at the atomic level, let alone the sub-atomic level, that it is absolutely negligible as a million times a million times weaker than even the weak force and the strong force within the nucleus dwarfs that. There are plenty of sources for the nature of what we know and don't know about the four fundamental forces and I suggest you find one equal to your understanding of Math and Science, but here is a link to a very basic one that still reasonably explains what I am referring to since I would prefer any readers actually read it instead of being "shutdown" by what for them is overly technical or advanced. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_interaction

Bottom Line - There is no Gravity A, AND because Gravity is NOT electromagnetic it cannot be amplified and most certainly not by matter/anti-matter annihilation. If you really have interest please spend some time on this. It has nothing to do with any areas unknown to us since what we already know is in direct conflict with what Lazar claims. It would be as if someone said turning on a lightbulb could produce darkness in an otherwise lit room, or that if you try to jump up, instead you fall through the Earth or that while in the air you could theoretically travel sideways as the Earth revolves under you. It is simply not possible.

I would like you to pay special attention to the fact that Einstein did not deny anything substantive about Newton. Newton still works precisely as Newton described within the confines of those conditions. Newton's work wasn't "trashed" or found to be mistaken. It was refined and expanded. There is absolutely no reason to imagine that what we know about the nature of the nuclei of atoms or the four fundamental forces could similarly be anything else but refined and expanded, NOT mistaken or trashed.

There are numerous other scientific flaws but that is enough right there. Being from another world" doesn't alter the fundamental laws of physics. This isn't even close. This is by far almost certainly to be a fabrication and a hoax and I will spend no more time on Mr. Lazar.

Last edited by enorbet; 01-28-2019 at 09:27 AM.
 
Old 01-29-2019, 12:49 AM   #253
jsbjsb001
Senior Member
 
Registered: Mar 2009
Location: Earth, unfortunately...
Distribution: Currently: OpenMandriva. Previously: openSUSE, PCLinuxOS, CentOS, among others over the years.
Posts: 3,836

Rep: Reputation: 2034Reputation: 2034Reputation: 2034Reputation: 2034Reputation: 2034Reputation: 2034Reputation: 2034Reputation: 2034Reputation: 2034Reputation: 2034Reputation: 2034
I don't mean to be rude or anything to you enorbet, but since we are not going to focus on not just what we currently know about science, and what degrees, if any, Lazar does or doesn't hold, then there is really no point in me continuing this discussion with you.

I'm sorry, but my mind remains open, what your thoughts about it are, are entirely up to yourself and I respect that, but to my way of thinking it's still possible there is at least some truth to what he was saying. Particularly when once again others that have worked there (at both Area 51, as well as the Los Alamos Meson Physics Facility) support the idea of him working there, and what he said about alien spacecraft being at Area 51/S4, then your post does not explain that.

But clearly in your mind the guy is a lair full stop, so there is no convincing you regardless of what I say, therefore there's no point in even trying to...
 
Old 01-29-2019, 01:50 AM   #254
ondoho
LQ Addict
 
Registered: Dec 2013
Posts: 16,897
Blog Entries: 10

Rep: Reputation: 5026Reputation: 5026Reputation: 5026Reputation: 5026Reputation: 5026Reputation: 5026Reputation: 5026Reputation: 5026Reputation: 5026Reputation: 5026Reputation: 5026
Quote:
Originally Posted by jsbjsb001 View Post
I don't mean to be rude or anything to you enorbet, but since we are not going to focus on not just what we currently know about science, and what degrees, if any, Lazar does or doesn't hold, then there is really no point in me continuing this discussion with you.
read:
"My opponent still won't agree with me. They have addressed every single point and made a better argument than me, I have no counterarguments left anymore.
This makes me very angry, but hell if I'm going to show it."

 
Old 01-29-2019, 02:12 AM   #255
jsbjsb001
Senior Member
 
Registered: Mar 2009
Location: Earth, unfortunately...
Distribution: Currently: OpenMandriva. Previously: openSUSE, PCLinuxOS, CentOS, among others over the years.
Posts: 3,836

Rep: Reputation: 2034Reputation: 2034Reputation: 2034Reputation: 2034Reputation: 2034Reputation: 2034Reputation: 2034Reputation: 2034Reputation: 2034Reputation: 2034Reputation: 2034
Quote:
Originally Posted by ondoho View Post
read:
"My opponent still won't agree with me. They have addressed every single point and made a better argument than me, I have no counterarguments left anymore.
This makes me very angry, but hell if I'm going to show it."

Can you please stop misquoting what I say.

Here's the rest of what I said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by jsbjsb001 View Post
...
I'm sorry, but my mind remains open, what your thoughts about it are, are entirely up to yourself and I respect that, but to my way of thinking it's still possible there is at least some truth to what he was saying. Particularly when once again others that have worked there (at both Area 51, as well as the Los Alamos Meson Physics Facility) support the idea of him working there, and what he said about alien spacecraft being at Area 51/S4, then your post does not explain that.

But clearly in your mind the guy is a lair full stop, so there is no convincing you regardless of what I say, therefore there's no point in even trying to...
 
  


Reply

Tags
aliens, evolution, god, origins, religion


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off



Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
what is Grand Unified Builder ?? iamlinux Linux - General 3 02-15-2013 10:04 AM
Grand Rapids, MI? JesusFreak84 Linux User Groups (LUG) 1 02-02-2010 07:32 AM
Grand entrance prodigy0987 LinuxQuestions.org Member Intro 1 12-16-2006 02:51 PM
New site grand opening! erat123 General 1 11-21-2006 03:38 AM
Grand Theft Auto kurcz Linux - Games 7 12-14-2005 07:37 PM

LinuxQuestions.org > Forums > Non-*NIX Forums > General

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:29 AM.

Main Menu
Advertisement
My LQ
Write for LQ
LinuxQuestions.org is looking for people interested in writing Editorials, Articles, Reviews, and more. If you'd like to contribute content, let us know.
Main Menu
Syndicate
RSS1  Latest Threads
RSS1  LQ News
Twitter: @linuxquestions
Open Source Consulting | Domain Registration