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Old 01-19-2018, 06:08 AM   #16
KindachiShota
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I find this topic very interesting for me.
Thank you very much for this.
 
Old 01-19-2018, 07:43 AM   #17
sundialsvcs
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Now it takes massive parallel computing power that one can buy an individual specialized module to do the work for about $2100 USD. However the amount of electricity they consume 24/7/365 is so massive that huge amounts of heat are generated, so much so that the last remaining individuals doing serious mining are college students who do so because their electricity is paid for by the Universities.
Notice the "USD." Someone sold a machine to a sucker for Legal Tender, not Bitcoin. In a fruitless effort to "get rich quick," he'll never pay back his electric bill. But the man who sold him the machine – for Dollars – made a tidy hunk of change.

The "Big Four," of US Transcontinental Railroad fame, got their start running hardware stores, where they sold picks, shovels, wagons, and photographs to miners who were surely going to "get rich quick." The gold was not "in them thar hills," but rather in the pockets of the people who were determined to go there, and you "mined" it as they were passing through town. Liquor salesmen did pretty good, too. As did card-sharps and whes.

As soon as someone develops a block-chaining algorithm that doesn't require massive computing power – as soon as they get it down to no more than the cost of generating a TLS certificate (because we're gonna need billions of the things, every day), then we'll be off-and-running. The tokens will no longer be "rare," but "commonplace." And yet, that's what we need for currency to be. "Dollars," "Rubles," and so-forth these days are not necessarily paper or metal. They can be abstract. But they are "Legal Tender,™" and they must never be in short supply. These tokens will become a far more secure way to represent these existing legal-tender currency units in an electronic world. And, that will be huge.

Last edited by sundialsvcs; 01-19-2018 at 07:50 AM.
 
Old 01-19-2018, 10:33 AM   #18
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Wasn't the whole idea of "mining" to make it more and more difficult to make bitcoin as the number in circulation grew greater, so as to prevent the kind of hyperinflation that governments have allowed for some official currencies (for example the Weimar republic Reichsmark)?

That wouldn't be possible if the tokens were as easy to manufacture as tls certs.
 
Old 01-19-2018, 11:32 AM   #19
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One of the major advantages of crypto-currency is speed. It is one of the main reasons that Enterprise is very interested in that global transfers can be very quick relative to the banking systems we now have. It may be possible to have many varieties which would not present the sort of transfer rate caused slowdowns that legal tender suffers from as things are now. As long as there is good accounting (and with so much at stake, why would there not be?) eliminating 3rd parties and lending itself to computing can be one of the reasons crypto-currency may succeed in establishing some manner of new standard.

Just as POTS, POST, newspapers, magazines,etc have all undergone a sea change or ceased to exist, how long can it be before other items and processes of days gone by, such as currency, step up to The Information Paradigm wrought by computing power?
 
Old 01-19-2018, 01:06 PM   #20
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I can see applications for the technology as a sort of token that might represent or authenticate, say, an invoice, offering a practical alternative to the present clearing-house services which necessarily rely today on "central authorities." The self-verifying characteristic of these tokens is very attractive. The crippling problem right now is that they are far, far too expensive to compute.

But, currency they will never be. We really don't need a replacement for "currency." Currency is available in unlimited quantity and it is completely fungible. Yes, issuing countries can abuse it and some most notably the United States do so. (I think that the days of the "petro-Dollar" are numbered. Both Russia and China have tested bourses of their own, successfully.)

If individuals could issue their own currency of any form (digital or otherwise), human greed would very quickly take over. Flagrant abuses would fairly-instantly become rampant.
 
Old 01-19-2018, 02:05 PM   #21
frankbell
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Listen to two lawyers from the Abovethelaw website discuss bitcoins with their guest:

https://abovethelaw.com/2018/01/cryp...he-crossroads/

Here's a bit from the post prefacing the podcast:

Quote:
If you enjoy investing in magic beans and pretending to be shocked when a market moored by absolutely nothing proves wildly volatile, then you should consider cryptocurrencies! While the market seems to have recovered from its recent nosedive, the regulatory pressures — both here and abroad — that triggered the sharp decline are still out there.
 
Old 01-19-2018, 03:38 PM   #22
sundialsvcs
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hazel View Post
Wasn't the whole idea of "mining" to make it more and more difficult to make bitcoin as the number in circulation grew greater, so as to prevent the kind of hyperinflation that governments have allowed for some official currencies (for example the Weimar republic Reichsmark)?

That wouldn't be possible if the tokens were as easy to manufacture as tls certs.
One of the biggest misconceptions put forth by the Bitcoin people is that money derives value from scarcity. It doesn't. The most important characteristics of Legal Tender currency are:
  • Endless Availability: You must never find yourself unable to denominate a transaction because the currency-unit doesn't exist. (By the way, that's the death-sentence for crypto-currencies while they remain so un-computable.) You can't have all the money that you want to, but an issuing government can.
  • Fungibility: If you want to, you can take an electronic balance in your bank's computer and turn it into US Dollar bills or coins, or Rubles, or Francs, or ...
  • Universal Acceptance: In the issuing country, the country's currency must be accepted in payment of "all debts, public and private." It is thereafter exchangeable with other Legal Tender throughout the world at agreed-upon exchange rates.

The biggest problem that arises is when any country "generates money out of its a*s right out of thin air" and then uses that money to buy things for itself ... as the USA recently did to the tune of about $3 Trillion Dollars "just to pay next year's bills." Businessmen in other countries can be hurt by this, especially if their currency is "tied to" another one, especially the Dollar. This is why I think we'll see the Chinese and the Russian energy-bourses become very successful. Right now, China, as the world's biggest consumer of energy, has to buy that energy using "US petro-Dollars" as an intermediate step. It costs them a lot. I think that the days of the US Dollar being "pegged," or "being the peg," are numbered – as they should be. Thanks to computers, we have many, many more ways to rapidly denominate transactions and to handle exchanges.

(And when these tokens do become easily computable, they will revolutionize those systems and probably a great many other things. Some people say, for example, that they might allow crypto-certificates that don't have to rely on a "chain of trust.")

People seem to think that "way out West," people actually came into bars with little bags of gold dust. In fact, in most of the mining camps, the money that was being used was scrip. Bankers in the catacombs of New York City used to push carts containing gold bricks from one room to the other, until they finally stopped doing that. (But it still makes a good picture, such as the recent photo-op with Vladimir Putin hoisting a shiny, heavy brick.)

Last edited by sundialsvcs; 01-19-2018 at 03:42 PM.
 
Old 01-20-2018, 04:21 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sundialsvcs View Post
As soon as someone develops a block-chaining algorithm that doesn't require massive computing power – as soon as they get it down to no more than the cost of generating a TLS certificate (because we're gonna need billions of the things, every day), then we'll be off-and-running. The tokens will no longer be "rare," but "commonplace." And yet, that's what we need for currency to be. "Dollars," "Rubles," and so-forth these days are not necessarily paper or metal. They can be abstract. But they are "Legal Tender,™" and they must never be in short supply. These tokens will become a far more secure way to represent these existing legal-tender currency units in an electronic world. And, that will be huge.
Aldogh that wasn't you're only point. when banks replicat the blockchain technology the underlying idea of bitcoin get lost because as soon as banks are incharge you have trust them not only the matt. And they will charge you for it as well. There is kind of an anarchistic thing about bitcoin that's seams provocative to some contiensus people. Same with piratebay people where just devastated considering it a sign of moral decay. But then It gave us spotify just as bitcoin will force banks in directions that favor consumers.

And what is the conspiracy behind bitcoin? As far i know it started out as project among nerds that got momentum and started to attract business putting up ATMs, banks investing for customers, investors going in to mining in large scale, online stores accepting bitcoin as payment and so on. Not the other way around with big businesses taking the lead.


Future of bitcoin as a currency that can compete with dollar and its value are not really the same thing. First of all its true that it just can't exist without conventional curenses so a world of only cryptocurrencies like bitcoin is impossible.

But that just don't imply that bitcoin doesn't have a future as a payment method or that it won't increase in value.

To start with it's fakt that only a tiny portion of the world's population owns bitcoin at this point and if just a few of the people that dosent do now invested it would skyrock disregardless of its uslesnes (that's a fact). But in fact it's not even useless businesses are forced to accept it and it's extremely convenient for consumers. The only thing that is keeping it from becoming something people would consider using as a currency with conventional currents as its backbone is its extreme fluctuations. Now that's something that is as far as I see it bitcoins primary obstacle.

And as far as its value is conserned agin it is only based on the number of people willing to invest and hence logicly its value just can't be overrated like traditional currencies. And as we know there not making many new bitcoins.

And I see no reason why byers would decline in number. On the contrary more and more people gain interest and the actual investors hangaround in the background waiting to the upswings. Its also the gate way to all other cryptocurrencies hence its logical to presume that bitcoin will increase in value. Even if it might seam bisar.

Last edited by Eliijah; 01-20-2018 at 05:47 AM.
 
Old 01-20-2018, 04:22 AM   #24
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They try to kontrole bitcoin but that hasn't worked with any per2per technology ever since napster .One way is to shut its down is to attack the bitcoinminders and thats whats going on in china right now. All they have to do is to shutdown the power .

Last edited by Eliijah; 01-20-2018 at 05:54 AM.
 
Old 01-20-2018, 04:23 AM   #25
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Any way it's down at 11 000 right now anyone dare to guess where it will be in 3 month? youre forcast will be noted for ever .

During the last 6 weeks it has rushed to 20 000 and back to 11 000 where it was 5 of december. the question is where all the former inverters is going in again or if must have lost interest and put their money elsewhere and that would lead to a steady decline.
 
Old 01-20-2018, 08:08 AM   #26
ntubski
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eliijah View Post
businesses are forced to accept it
What?
 
Old 01-21-2018, 02:54 AM   #27
ondoho
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet View Post
the last remaining individuals doing serious mining are college students who do so because their electricity is paid for by the Universities.
i knew it!
the "mum's basement syndrome".
 
Old 01-21-2018, 03:00 AM   #28
Eliijah
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ntubski View Post
What?
They are not forced to do so but its business in it as pepel own bitcoin. You even get discont in some stors for using it! So it might be god geting some just to shop.
 
Old 01-22-2018, 05:10 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by sundialsvcs View Post
Bitcoin and all of its brethren is a 21st Century version of "Tulip Mania." It's exactly the same swindle. Last time, it was a beautiful flower. This time, it was a hard-to-compute number.
Agree.

Recommended blog article: http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2018/...oin-is-stupid/
 
Old 01-22-2018, 08:23 AM   #30
sundialsvcs
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YesItsMe View Post
Wow! Thanks for making me aware of this blog. He's not only a crypto/security expert but also an uncommonly-good writer.

Another writer observed ... "are these 'zillion-dollar valuations' coming from actual trades, or are they simply (more likely) a hype-story based on what one person says they would be willing to spend if they were so inclined?"

Somehow, I don't believe that "more money than actually exists on this planet" is right now actually being traded in a singular mad dash for a tulip a hard-to-compute digital number. Instead, I see speculators who are hoping that some people will be gullible enough to believe any graph that they see. It certainly has been done before.

A quintessential book on this subject Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds, was first published in 1841 by Charles Mackay. It's so well-known that it has its own Wikipedia page. (By the way, the above hyperlink goes there, not to Amazon.) The age of this book – and the fact that it is still in print and an on-and off-again best seller – speaks to the universality of the human motivations (and gullibility) that it describes.

Last edited by sundialsvcs; 01-22-2018 at 08:26 AM.
 
  


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