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Old 05-11-2018, 03:30 AM   #1
qrange
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freedom of expression


I understand that 'news portals' must censor hate_speech and such. But how come they are allowed to censor *any* comment they simply dislike?

what about this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Articl...n_Human_Rights

Last edited by qrange; 05-11-2018 at 03:31 AM.
 
Old 05-11-2018, 05:57 AM   #2
ntubski
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You have freedom of expression, but I don't think that extends to forcing other people to publish your comments if they don't like them.
 
Old 05-11-2018, 06:49 AM   #3
qrange
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I see, but why would different rules apply to, say, CNN and Facebook, in that regard?
I don't think Facebook or twitter or similar block comments they don't like?
 
Old 05-11-2018, 06:57 AM   #4
TenTenths
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ntubski View Post
You have freedom of expression, but I don't think that extends to forcing other people to publish your comments if they don't like them.
Exactly. I've had this before on my own forum. Basically "You're free to say what you like, but you're not using my site to say it, feel free to find someone else to publish it for you."

Quote:
Originally Posted by qrange View Post
I see, but why would different rules apply to, say, CNN and Facebook, in that regard?
They are different sites and different sites make their own rules.
 
Old 05-11-2018, 07:16 AM   #5
qrange
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sure, but if a *lot* of people come to read news on your sites, there are some other rules, too.
at least, they should provide some explanation why given comment was refused.

Last edited by qrange; 05-11-2018 at 07:17 AM.
 
Old 05-11-2018, 07:31 AM   #6
TenTenths
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Quote:
Originally Posted by qrange View Post
sure, but if a *lot* of people come to read news on your sites, there are some other rules, too.
What rules?
Quote:
Originally Posted by qrange View Post
at least, they should provide some explanation why given comment was refused.
Nope, see above, their website, their rules, they decide what to publish.

Privately funded websites are free to publish what they like as long as it's not illegal. This includes the freedom to NOT publish content.

I'm talking from experience, I have both a solicitor and a barrister as part of my forum moderation team and have discussed this with them in the past.
 
Old 05-11-2018, 07:47 AM   #7
qrange
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well, i'm no expert, but it still doesn't seem fair to me.
yes, anyone is free to make their own site or forum, or express their opinions in other ways. but it seems to me that we don't have equal opportunity.
sites that were created first, or with more $$$, or whatever have more chance to become popular and then abuse that popularity.
 
Old 05-11-2018, 08:20 AM   #8
TenTenths
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Quote:
Originally Posted by qrange View Post
well, i'm no expert, but it still doesn't seem fair to me.
Life isn't fair.
Quote:
Originally Posted by qrange View Post
sites that were created first, or with more $$$, or whatever have more chance to become popular and then abuse that popularity.
Welcome to the free market.
 
Old 05-11-2018, 08:38 AM   #9
qrange
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yeah, I thought you'd reply in that vein.
perhaps life isn't fair, but people do strive to make it fair.
I don't wanna enter that 'free' market, you can keep it, thank you.
 
Old 05-11-2018, 09:10 AM   #10
Mill J
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@OP What is your gripe about? This site?

Free speech is messy. Why allow trolls to take over?

I think the mods here do a great job keeping this forum clean and free from abusive material.
 
Old 05-11-2018, 09:15 AM   #11
qrange
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No, its not about this site. One of my posts here has been edited, but thats ok, I used foul language, mea culpa..

Its about this one: http://rs.n1info.com/English

But, never-mind, please just forget this discussion.
 
Old 05-11-2018, 09:26 AM   #12
enorbet
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Quote:
Originally Posted by qrange View Post
yeah, I thought you'd reply in that vein.
perhaps life isn't fair, but people do strive to make it fair.
I don't wanna enter that 'free' market, you can keep it, thank you.
There is some dissonance in that last sentence in that a truly free market is simply the fairest most equitable system possible, at least at first assuming a level playing field. The unfairness comes with time since the rich and powerful only pay lip service to "free". Once they become wealthy they use that wealth to stifle free to protect what they've earned. We all would very likely do the same thing since it takes place in little steps but with one important anomaly. There are some people who can never be satisfied, whose greed is boundless, who actually believe "He who dies with the most toys, wins" and have little or no respect for the environment that allowed them to become rich (in monetary capital) in the first place.

To get back to the specific topic, free speech and the implied question "What value is freedom if one has little or no power to implement or exercise it?" A good example might be the nature of elections in the US. We are rather firmly locked into a two party system in that any independent has unfair limitations that help insure that no matter how resonant the platform, that candidate has the odds stacked heavily against him/her and the House Bet is on on of the two "normal" party candidates.

As bad and unfair as that my seem or be, how is it any more equitable (let alone moral) to attempt to force fairness? Not only is that a very complex "tall order" but includes within itself built-in unfairness, a precedent that never stays idle and always grows. There is no perfect system by anyone's standards. There will always be struggle and on some level that's a good thing since struggle makes/keeps us strong. "Everybody wants to go to Heaven but nobody wants to die", right?
 
Old 05-11-2018, 10:51 AM   #13
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One thing that increasingly worries me is the suppression of unpopular opinions, not by site owners, but by organised "twitter storms" which are effectively a form of mass trolling. The person who ventured that opinion is usually bullied into retracting it and making a grovelling apology. I don't think this is good for democracy.

When I was growing up, there was a saying (usually attributed to Voltaire) which went "I disapprove of what you are saying but I will defend to the death your right to say it". Now it has become "We disapprove of what you say and we will threaten you with rape and violence until you withdraw it."
 
Old 05-11-2018, 06:16 PM   #14
Michael Uplawski
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hazel View Post
I don't think this is good for democracy.
I do not believe, that the Internet can be “democratic”. What servility would we be fighting, what disobedience against whose rule would we exercise..? “Discussion” or freedom to express opinions is not what defines democracy.

The moment, that you have invested a big amount of energy and time to make this thingdemocratic”, it will first become completely unusable, then disappear. Democracy is not an entertaining spectacle and I do not expect my entertaining spectacles to be democratic. I would not even know what that were good for.

You can fight for a pluralistic Internet, but you cannot claim that there were any justice involved if this appears to be in vain.

The Internet is “Do it yourself”, with an emphasis on “Do it”. But you cannot blame me, if I do not feel like participating and this is void of any allusions to democracy.

Last edited by Michael Uplawski; 05-11-2018 at 06:19 PM.
 
Old 05-11-2018, 07:44 PM   #15
agillator
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I think this discussion is in danger of falling into the trap most similar discussions fall into. For example if it is true that we are locked into a two party system and an independent person has little or no chance as was stated earlier, I think it is important to ask the next question, the one I see few willing to ask or honestly answer: why? As I see it the answer is really fairly simple although few seem to want to face it or its ramifications. As I see it the answer is because the large majority of people accept things that way. Supposing an absolute idea of 'fair' were important to most people, important enough that those things seen as 'unfair' were rejected out of hand. What would happen? Of course there is the problem of defining fair and unfair. Most people call things fair which they believe to be fair, whether others agree or not. Is there an absolute definition of fair? In all of this keep going back to Pogo's famous observation: "We have met the enemy and he is us."

This discussion started with someone thinking it is somehow 'unfair' that comments on a private web site were edited or blocked by the owner because s/he disagreed with them or didn't like them. I, in turn, think it is unfair of people to try to force said owner to not edit or block such comments for any reason as long as the site is a private one. That does not mean I either agree or disagree with the action.

I agree with Hazel but hasten to point out things are absolutely no different today than they were 20 years ago, or 100 years ago, or 10,000 years ago. Has the human race advanced at all over the centuries? I would like to think so in that we, today, recognize and talk about such things which I suspect didn't happen a thousand years ago, but then I wasn't around then to know. I'm not quite that old. I will plead guilty to trying to live up to Voltaire's sentiment and valuing my professional association with others of like mind whether they knew it or not or admitted it or not as we served careers (or shorter term enlistments) in the military or in other public service areas.

I will close with a caution to whomever will listen. Mother Nature, Life or whatever you want to call this existence seems to have lessons to teach each of us. If we fail to learn the lesson the first time it is presented it will be presented again. However, each time it is presented the cost of learning the lesson increases. Yes, we can have (almost) anything we want if we are willing to pay the price. Please be sure you know the price before you decide you want something.
 
  


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