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Old 02-25-2019, 09:17 PM   #1
RandomTroll
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For everyone who remembers Kaypro


Quote:
'In the nineteen-eighties, the sociologist Patricia Fernandez-Kelly conducted a study of the electronics and garment industries in Southern California. More than seventy per cent of the labor force was women of color, and more than seventy per cent of those women were Hispanic. In San Diego, Fernandez-Kelly interviewed a woman she called Fermina Calero (a pseudonym, to protect her from deportation). Calero was born in Mexico. In 1980, when she was twenty-one, she began working in Tijuana, soldering filaments of metal for sixty-five cents an hour. In 1983, Calero crossed into the United States, illegally, to work at Kaypro, the maker of the Kaypro II, a personal computer that briefly rivalled the Apple II. In the nineteen-sixties and seventies, Andrew Kay, the company's founder, had hired management consultants to help him reimagine his labor force. In the eighties, when people speaking English responded to the company's newspaper Help Wanted ads, they were told that there were no openings; when people speaking Spanish called, they were invited to apply. By the time Calero started working for Kaypro, its workforce consisted of seven hundred people, nearly all undocumented Mexican immigrants. The company's general manager said, "They are reliable; they work hard; they don't make trouble." At Kaypro, Calero earned nearly five dollars an hour.'
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2...g-for-your-job This is an enjoyable article about the economic prospect of automation in the new The New Yorker by the wonderful Jill Lepore. I listened to the audio version http://audm.herokuapp.com/player-emb...ea5a06978cc1e8 while eating dinner then doing the dishes
 
Old 02-26-2019, 02:32 PM   #2
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Interesting read thanks.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L0djQ134cjw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1jyGsKOzEVE

Last edited by ChuangTzu; 02-26-2019 at 02:34 PM.
 
Old 02-28-2019, 12:35 PM   #3
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Yet some people seem to think some measly ol' wall will prevent people from going to amazing lengths of effort when what's at stake is a nearly tenfold increase in pay. Hmmmm... Think about it. If you were making a measly 50K a year, I seriously doubt even an entire Ocean could keep you from taking a job at half a million a year. How many people would you have to bribe or kill would likely be your first question.

Last edited by enorbet; 02-28-2019 at 12:39 PM.
 
Old 02-28-2019, 02:14 PM   #4
ondoho
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet View Post
Yet some people seem to think some measly ol' wall will prevent people from going to amazing lengths of effort when what's at stake is a nearly tenfold increase in pay. Hmmmm... Think about it. If you were making a measly 50K a year, I seriously doubt even an entire Ocean could keep you from taking a job at half a million a year. How many people would you have to bribe or kill would likely be your first question.
i think you're forgetting the equally manyfold increase in living costs.
...
i think many immigrants are also forgetting that.
 
Old 02-28-2019, 06:45 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ondoho View Post
i think you're forgetting the equally manyfold increase in living costs.
...
i think many immigrants are also forgetting that.
They don't have to consider living costs when things like this happen/are encouraged:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...illegally.html
 
Old 02-28-2019, 08:55 PM   #6
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The first "personal computer" I ever got to play with was a Kaypro "luggable"

Two 5 1/4" floppy drives
A 4" CRT (no hard drive)
Keyboard clipped on one end. (no mouse)
cp/m operating system.

Spent most of my time learning WordStar* and playing DOS games...and trying to teach my mother to use it instead of her IBM Selectric (it was her computer)

*pico/nano very similar to WordStar, IMO.
 
Old 03-01-2019, 02:29 AM   #7
enorbet
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuangTzu View Post
They don't have to consider living costs when things like this happen/are encouraged:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...illegally.html
Chang I realize from considerable posts of yours that you are a modern far right guy but seriously must you continually post articles from known unreliable sources? Don't you realize this actually hurts your arguments?

The Daily Mail is a Tabloid, Bro, and it is known for sensationalism and ridiculous scare stories designed to shock and enrage in order to sell product. Why would you even read such a rag let alone post a link to it as any sort of reliable information?

In this case, apart from any sort of politics or judgment, it is simply that economics is a powerful force. How can anyone suppose that an impoverished Mexican peasant isn't better off making ten times as much income even if his/her living expenses double or worse?... OR that there aren't businesses that benefit from the cheap (relative to indigenous standards) labor? The point is no wall, no matter how tall and long, is going to stop that, and an argument can be made that we shouldn't even try, since on both sides there are economic needs and benefits. In this case it is unlikely any Kaypro thread would even exist today since their products apparently depended almost entirely on low production costs made possible by cheap labor.

Last edited by enorbet; 03-01-2019 at 02:31 AM.
 
Old 03-01-2019, 04:15 PM   #8
ChuangTzu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet View Post
Chang I realize from considerable posts of yours that you are a modern far right guy but seriously must you continually post articles from known unreliable sources? Don't you realize this actually hurts your arguments?
Your judgment could not be further from the truth, I am neither left nor right and also not very modern. FYI, far right and far left are the same thing.

Quote:
The Daily Mail is a Tabloid, Bro, and it is known for sensationalism and ridiculous scare stories designed to shock and enrage in order to sell product. Why would you even read such a rag let alone post a link to it as any sort of reliable information?
Sometimes ones trash reveals more about them then any other source.

Quote:
In this case it is unlikely any Kaypro thread would even exist today since their products apparently depended almost entirely on low production costs made possible by cheap labor.
And this differs from other tech companies how? Even apple is made with cheap labor, they just insist on high consumer prices, and gullible users to pay those prices.

Last edited by ChuangTzu; 03-01-2019 at 04:18 PM.
 
Old 03-01-2019, 09:10 PM   #9
enorbet
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuangTzu View Post
Your judgment could not be further from the truth, I am neither left nor right and also not very modern. FYI, far right and far left are the same thing.
C'mon. You know they are not the same. Do they have some similarities? Sure. But Lefties allude to Social Justice and equality (to the point of cookie cutter societies) but end up with a ruling elite. Righties promote individual freedom IF you are considered Native since Nationalism is big with most modern Righties but also end up with a ruling elite. Only invasive, rigid ruling structures are similar. Their platforms are night and day.

All one has to do these days is let your browser keep personal data which alters your profile to end up in either a Left Wing echo chamber or a Right Wing echo chamber. They are quite different from each other. If you really would like to know how different install a few extra browsers and search so-called liberal terms, like social justice, socialism, equal pay, gender neutrality, etc. on one, and so-called conservative terms like "states rights', pizzagate, repealing ACA, gun control, etc., then give it six months of following those paths and tell anyone including yourself they are the same.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuangTzu View Post
Sometimes ones trash reveals more about them then any other source.
Non sequitur. Looking through someone's trash for what they discard can tell a great deal about a person's likes and dislikes. Reading sensationalist trash let alone quoting or referencing it as evidence may only hint to an agenda where the reader prefers sources that tell them what they want to hear. So that you link such sources tells more about you than it does the subject at hand. Was that what you were going for?


Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuangTzu View Post
And this differs from other tech companies how? Even apple is made with cheap labor, they just insist on high consumer prices, and gullible users to pay those prices.
All corporations rightfully charge what they think the market will bear, often regardless of their costs. The ones that make consumers happy enough to part with their money survive. Those that don't, don't. There is always a market for "cheaper" so many companies seek to lower costs to achieve a small profit at higher volume while others seek higher profit at higher profits that may offer some higher quality, but as you've said some just depend on elite snobbery, perhaps totally convinced if something costs more it must be better, and it surely impresses their circle of friends

That's not the point here. What is the point is that no wall is going to stop... maybe impede, but certainly not stop those, with enough fear, hunger, desire and/or guts to pull themselves up by any means possible, including extreme risk, bribery, hidden compartments and tunnels. Kaypro was a tiny tip of a massive iceberg. It will never stop anymore than the War on Drugs has even put a dent in Drug Trafficking. Supply and Demand is a potent combination.
 
Old 03-02-2019, 11:40 AM   #10
ondoho
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet View Post
What is the point is that no wall is going to stop... maybe impede, but certainly not stop those, with enough fear, hunger, desire and/or guts to pull themselves up by any means possible, including extreme risk, bribery, hidden compartments and tunnels.
Maybe they can come to Europe instead, or go straight to Canada. Welcome!
 
Old 03-03-2019, 09:48 AM   #11
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I don't see the moral difference between using illegal immigrants as cheap labour and getting your stuff built in Indonesia or China with cheap local labour. It's exploitation either way.
 
Old 03-03-2019, 05:46 PM   #12
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Agreed. However the perfect world in which all nations can provide meaningful employment to anyone who wants a job is not yet a reality. When survival is at stake, morals tend to go on holiday. I sincerely hope that one day humanity achieves a level of stability where Economics is less a "cruel mistress" and more a nurturing Mother, but until then the old adages will apply - "Money doesn't talk, it swears" and "Money talks and bullshit walks". In this thread my point is that it is impossibly foolish to spend money to attempt to prevent others from making a living wage. They will find a way exactly because they have to.
 
Old 03-04-2019, 06:01 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet View Post
Agreed. However the perfect world in which all nations can provide meaningful employment to anyone who wants a job is not yet a reality. When survival is at stake, morals tend to go on holiday.
That paraphrases Brecht! "Erst kommt das Fressen, dann kommt die Moral!" (From Mack the Knife)
 
  


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