english pubs and the working class
 

i think they suck. i used to think "yeeeah, english working class people, the best people in the world, fair, honest, basically good people. but actually, i dont think they are, seems to me the majority are silly children. ive had this feeling for a while now, and i went to the pub last night for a lemonade (which didnt go down well!), anytime i go to the pub, all i hear is working class men telling each other that because they wear a yellow t-shirt, or because they like to talk about other things apart from womens breasts that theyre gay "your a gay boy you are!".."no! u are!", one says to another. they seem to have this preoccupation with homosexuality :scratch: . also, if you dont work like a dog digging the roads or driving a digger truck for 12 hours a day, its like your not a man. i just dislike these people to be honest :p they cant be bothered to learn, and they actually have no desire to learn, which to me just does not compute. i used to think it was me that didnt fit in, but actually its them. i remember a guy in the pub not long ago who was going to greece on holiday for a few weeks with one of his m8s, and he looked at me and said "he wants to go to see the ancient buildings! LMAO!", i was like "heh..yeah..what a moron.." :rolleyes:

Well I wouldn't look it that way. Maybe they're just living happier lives than you? I mean, for a start, making "real" work does make you feel better than sitting in a hot server room 16 hours a day (unless you happen to get killed in the "real" work), just the same way as doing sports makes you feel better than just drinking beer at home. If your mind doesn't like it, it's another story, but apparently human bodies are meant to move and flex muscles at times (not the way some jerks do at the gym, though).

Gays are another thing then. I bet the preoccupations never vanish before human race becomes extinct. But then again, if you don't have one preoccupation, you have some other. Maybe it's better to have a few happy pub-visiting lads that tell you're gay if you're wearing a yellow t-shirt (you could be) than having those same lads have army uniforms, a swastika, rifles and a bad mood against "the weak". :)

Hey, but you could tell them to try Windows Vista -- it was supposed to be user-friendly, right? Maybe it'll cool them off.. ;)

i dont think they are enjoying their lives, by the stolen glances at their faces across the bari think they hate their lives and how boring they are, but dont have a desire to learn and improve themselves, so they just sit there, drinking beer, talking the same old crap. the problem with the pub visiting lads/nazis thing is that they are one and the same, there may be a few middle class commanders giving the orders, but the vast majority of soldiers are working class men who dont question what theyre doing, they just enjoy giving in to their animal instincts, unlike human beings that actively supress their animal urges (and i see very little of that supression in the pub ;)) p.s just looked at your sig bOuncer, 'fin' is finland? england is a very different place to most places, its like a phiranha tank over here, they do prey on the weak, its part of the english culture to dominate rather than to help, unfortunatley. another thing is if you dont own a car in england, your looked upon as a second class citizen, EVEN if you choose not to own one, we're pretty stupid too ;)

//working class punch gays inside the toilets ...


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I call Godwin's Law!

//the working class can be as irritating as how we can imagine about them ... and the peasants class can be worser ...

the worst type ... ??

those either from the peasants class or the working class who are rich / educated(in some sense though) just yesterday(always remain at yesterday) ...


so ... no over-idealization of classes or whatever from this side ... thats just being silly and stupid ...


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//spell-checked !!


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Oh, the snobbery!!

You have bad eggs from all classes, or even groups of bad eggs. But to claim the entire working class population "sucks" is a little unjust.

I have friends from all classes and they all respect each other, as for my status I'm not quite sure because I have working class part time job and come from a working class background but am studying computer science at uni. Perhaps I know how to choose friends?

Alred: your posts are uncalled for, grow up. Are you aware of the old adage: If you don't have anything useful to say, say nothing.

i disagree, the worst type are the polititions!

if your local pub is full of larger w****ers then go to anothr pub.... prefwerably one that serves real ale and dousent have a happy hour (read get totally hammered on cheap lager/spirits then start a fight hour)

ok , i apologize ... i'm also a working class although i prefer to be a look on as peasant sometime ...


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Was going to write a sarcastic reply to mobilemonkey's post, but I have to go and dig the road up.
--A Working-Class Englishman Who Never Wears A Yellow T-Shirt.
(later)
Aaah, that'll take the council ages to repair. Now I'm off to the pub to take the p**s out of lemonade drinkers.

Remember this Mr. Mobilemonkey: In a democracy, people have the right to live as they see fit. You may not like or understand it, but that doesn't give them any less right to do as they please.

If you don't like it, try going to a different pub.

Moral of story: lazy people shouldn't go to pubs. Stick to the gin joints around your institutions of higher laziness.

Hi

I don't understand why the English think it matters so much what kind of work you do. Visiting a few times, the only bad experience I have had with people was with neds (a word I learned - not really sure what it means). Anyway, I don't think those neds I met did work at all.

Work is just the curse of the drinking class :)

http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/NEDS

I'm yet to understand the connection between the human and the booze. I am a teetotaller.

associating all workers as the working class is the same as associating all peasants as the peasant class ... there is no such order , thats impossible ...

something like not all workers like to punch gays in the toilet ... infact in many cases , we are not seeing any working class at all ...


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Speaking as a working class person with no yellow t-shirt .... OUTSIDE NOW!!

Really, what you are saying is that these people (and you don't know their class - having worked on trading floors you could well be talking about wealthy types) are pretty much like people everywhere. If you don't like the people in that pub, find a different one. I drink in pubs in the city and East End and have done for a number of years and haven't heard these conversations.

Although, since you look down on the working classes, maybe a wine bar is more to your liking??

exactly my point, i wish they'd shut up, and then i wouldnt have to rant in threads like this ;)

the working class in britain is defined (by me, because im always right) by poverty of thought and later education through THEIR own laziness. if you dig the roads but read books and like learning you are not working class, if however you dig the roads and do little else than drink lager, then your a working class zero (heh, good that was wasnt it, i just thought of that! :D personally i dont drink or smoke, and i run twice a week, and i like to learn, thats what sets the middle class apart from the working class. all of that is not politically correct, but its the truth, AND THE TRUTH SHALL SET YE FREE or whatever.

thats why we should discourage the usages of words like "working class" ... maybe should coin a new discription ...

its just sounds funny ...


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yeah but Xavier you obviously learn, im not talking about people that do make an effort and learn, im talking about people, particularly people who have responsibilitys like kids. they dont try to educate their children, they dont even try to educate themselves. and that frankly disgusts me. most working class fathers in britain go to work, come home, spend 2 hours drinking beer and watching eastenders and coronation street, while the kids upstairs wondering why his dad wont spend more time with him. alot of working class fathers would rather watch a soap opera about a made up family than interact with their own family, thats if theyre not playing xbox, they would rather play computer games. disgusting. i know middleclass fathers may not be there all the time, but they are just misguided to think material wealth is the main thing, at least their hearts are in the right place. i know countless working class fathers that dont give a thought to their children.

you may say im generalizing, but its true in the main, and its true of my experience, i came from a working class home, and there was next to no encouragement, because guess what? yes! my father was too busy watching coronation street and drinking beer \o/

and i dont drink wine, im not a soft southern nancy u know :p

I'd be running more than twice a week if I shared your views. Anyway, you'll probably grow out of this adolescent snobbery in time.

Somebody has to do the dirty work,and this is the working klass.If they are happy,I do not know.But they all want something better than that for their children,and they work hard for it,I hope.

Shocking
 

I've been a little shocked at the number of posts I've read in this forum where the user info and/or content identifies the poster as English - but their use of the language is execrable (XavierP being a notable exception).

Things like not properly capitalizing words, run-on sentences, no paragraph breaks. These are points of grammar and style. That's bad enough, but there's more.

Normally poor grammar in these posts is accompanied by a barely coherent thought process. The post reads like a series of random words strung together to try to form a sentence. Somehow the picture of 500 monkeys banging on typewriters comes to mind. Perhaps it's not impossible for a sonnet to come out of such endeavor - but I doubt it ever would.

Much of your diatribe is as difficult to decipher as alred's ramblings. He, however, has the excuse of being a non-native English speaker.

Whilst stationed in Scotland I had a chance to teach in a small community college. I was very impressed by the level of education of the students. I felt that they had come out of the school system with what amounted to an American Associates Degree.

Apparently, that is true no longer. If the proper use of the English language is of little importance in England, I mourn the demise of the Mother Tongue.

ill take that as a compliment.

We didn't watch Coronation Street in my house. But, your whole post is a massive generalisation. Yes, there are a lot of people who spend an inordinate amount of time in the pub - and, depending on your age and your domestic circumstances this can be either a bad thing or merely something they do.

Let's not forget that spending time with your friends is a great opportunity to relax and to "be yourself". While at work you have to act a certain way, so being out with your friends means you can switch off and enjoy yourself.

I have to say, get out into the world, it gives you a whole new perspective. Or improves on your old one.

AND ANOTHER THING!..

firstly may i apologise to any americans on the forum for what im about to post, but ive just read something from last fridays 13th's Independant letters page, which i want to stick up Dragineez ;)

'Mechanical Learning Cripples Creativity.

Sir: Sarah Churchwell asks "why cant British students write like Americans?"(Opinions,11 july). While i share her dismay at poor grammar teaching in our schools I wouldn't adopt the American model for the world and I dispute her assertion that a rote-learned and prescriptive relationship with language is the only possible model.
As head of the creative-writing team at Brunel university in west London, where the campus is probably the most diverse in Britain, I estimate that 87 percent of our first-year undergraduates need to work on their language skills. Many of them also write with confidence, passion and extraordinary inventiveness. The American-educated students, while polished grammarians, seem to be the products of a mechanised teaching process that has nullified their creative instincts and maimed their self-expression as badly as a weak grasp of language. For example, a Chicago educated young writer doing a PhD with us once described the massacre in Tiananmen square as "unpleasent" and winced at the suggestion that a stronger term would have been appropriate.'

Celia Brayfield - Brunel University


which is a feeling ive had for years, and i recognised in that article. so Dragineez, you are wrong to dismiss someones ideas on the basis of poor grammar.

Self Reinforcing Fallacy
 

I've re-read my post, and several others, to try to discern where I might have given the impression that I dismissed one's ideas solely on the basis of poor grammar. As near as I can tell - I have never intimated in any way, shape, or form that grammar or writing skill was my single - or even most important - evaluation criteria.

I accept that the lack of these writing skills is not an indication of creativity. However, your supposition that the reverse is true is equally a logical non sequitur.

I have great patience and sympathy for non-native English speakers who must sometimes struggle to express themselves. Many do a remarkably good job despite the language barrier. Your own quote makes that very same point by stating that the campus of Brunel university in west London "is probably the most diverse in Britain, I estimate that 87 percent of our first-year undergraduates need to work on their language skills." The word "diverse" is PC speak for foreign non-native English speakers.

The problem with the quote you cite is that it is a generalization, and like all generalizations, cannot possibly be universally applicable. I can point you to numerous examples of educated American writers who do "write with confidence, passion and extraordinary inventiveness." I, of course, exclude myself from this category as I mostly write for the Legal and Engineering fields (which are notably devoid of creativity ;) ).

The penchant to use overly softened terms to describe events is certainly not endemic to America. Wasn't it Britain's new Prime Minister that forbade using the word "muslim" and "terrorist" in the same sentence? Seems a bit like banning the use of the words "water" and "wet" when describing a dampening event. Silly.

you contradict yourself, Dragineez.

anything that holds true for anyone are untranslatable to anyone else ... or is it ... ??


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Gentlemen's Agreement
 

I didn't view it as a blanket indictment of the grammatically challenged. Obviously you do. I'll not be able to persuade you to my point of view. You have the same chance of convincing me of yours.

We can respectfully agree to disagree. This is sometimes done - even in English pubs.

And what have we learned from this exercise?

How you say something matters more that what you're saying. Eloquent boolshiat reigns supreme. :rolleyes:

thats not true at all, re-read his original post, which was blatently meant to discredit me, simply because of my poor use of grammar, he didnt argue against my ideas at all. i dont see how it could be taken any other way, its absolutely obvious. his first sentence cements this idea ("Normally poor grammar in these posts is accompanied by a barely coherent thought process."), which was a general statement, followed closely by a more targeted attack on me, and the '500 monkeys banging away on typewriters'. how could i have so misinterpretted this person? this guy is after all someone who can 'string a sentence together'. he writes in the legal and egineering feilds, its his job to get his language exactly right, and indisputable.
the fact is, he was wrong. he was wrong for hijacking the thread in the first place, which had nothing whatsoever to do with grammar. it was rediculous to start that at all.
second he was wrong to assume that anyone who displays poor grammar will also have an incoherent thought process, this isnt necessarily the case.

these so called educated people like Dragonese do this all the time in forums like this, to win arguments and to shut people up (the same way i shut up, untill today when i read that news article). they believe that if they embarrass someone into thinking that because they cant spell or punctuate properly, that they must be stupid, and therefore their opinion must also be wrong. that person will then be quiet, and so the 'educated' person will then atomatically win the argument, when they have no right to. thats the real lowdown.

Don't let him push your buttons. ;) Push his instead, for example:

George Bush has an MBA from Harvard, so he must be really smart like Dragineez. :D

Personally, I think that if anyone feels they are being attacked unfairly they should hit the report button and ask a moderator to moderate. But that's just me and what do I know?

Dragineez and mobilemonkey deserve each other. I've said enough already about mobilemonkey's snobbery. And Dragineez is a pedantic bore, whose posts read like extracts from a 19th Century legal document.

what you think of as my snobbery brian, is actually my total disbelief that people can go through their lives doing nothing else but drink, smoke and sleep. ive just spent 10 years pretty seriously ill, where i was housebound and unable even to see properly, it was so frustrating not to be able to read and learn, but there are people who are quite happy not to, and i just dont understand that. the problem these people have got is low ambition and a decadent lifestyle (where they can afford cheap booze and cigarettes and xboxes, and also the 'shame' of being lazy and irresponsible has been removed from society. now they do whatever they desire, and forget about thier responsibilitys). this 'snobbery' is not a failing on my part, its a reaction to adult males of 30, drinking and enjoying themselves while their kids are out happy slapping some old granny. not only is it a waste of that kids potential, but the rest of society suffers. but i have the solution...make me dictator of the world and then once some of these adult males have had their little fingers removed as a mark of lazyines, and the shame that should follow (i will also broadcast tv and radio campaigns about the shame of adult male laziness, and link it to the size of their penises or something), others will question that and buck up their ideas. maybe then the human race would get somewhere, instead of floundering about like an upturned turtle on the beach of life.

:D
One thing in your favour, you've got a sense of humour.

I think people should listen to this bloke, I think he knows what he's talking about.....

i shall keep that in mind Xavier.

this one is the best ... :D


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// ... ^_^

And alred posts without reading.

Thanks for the praise, Alred. I get the impression XavierP wants this thread closed.