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Old 07-31-2020, 10:01 AM   #31
rokytnji
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Quote:
Where have you been?

https://www.industryweek.com/the-eco...inas-factories

I'm the one who changed analog punch presses to plc control. When they moved out there. Tonka Toys sent me. Looks like the worm turned.
 
Old 07-31-2020, 10:55 AM   #32
rtmistler
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rokytnji View Post
https://www.industryweek.com/the-eco...inas-factories

I'm the one who changed analog punch presses to plc control. When they moved out there. Tonka Toys sent me. Looks like the worm turned.
Cool! Worked with a few toy companies as well, but never traveled there, it was all plastic work where I'm the electronics side and we never needed to visit.

We're using Tijuana a lot these days. Same comment, haven't been there, lately. Last time was 1985 or so. If your point is that manufacturing is becoming more world wide distributed, I can agree, or at least this is my thinking on the subject.
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Originally Posted by ondoho View Post
It seems for once we all agree that China does steal technology?
Not arguing that the potential exists, but I'm not going to make a broad, countrywide generalization. I've said earlier that "people" steal technology.

Years ago I worked for a very large 100,000 person company, and we were one subsidiary which was purchased. The concept of OEM (Original Equipment Manufacturer) was big at the time and what that meant to us was that our company would produce nearly identical products which were branded for various other companies. So if 3M wanted an electronic push button that lit up and displayed something, and similarly Staples also wanted a product that did the same, the exception being the covering and coloring, this company I worked for would manufacture our standard product for both situations and finish it with the appropriate coverings to match 3M or Staples' product specs, and then ship it to them, and they'd sell it as their own product. We found out that a whole division of our company took that concept a few steps farther. Basically, the whole division, up to the VP were producing and shipping products for a company, and it was going somewhere more serious than toys and consumer goods apparently. The problem was, was that the profits were all going to that subsidiary which was entirely owned and operated by the division leadership of our company. They made an OEM deal with their selves, to profit them. And it took some time for the larger company to notice and get prosecution. Whole bundle of IP based training resulted. It was ... interesting.
Quote:
Originally Posted by igadoter View Post
Would you allow Russia to steal?
I do not feel it's specifically this question. One is not inclined to let anyone steal. Meanwhile theft does occur.

Regarding India or any other situation where in the world, someone re-uses patented technology or processes, but those patents have no bearing on the legal trade agreements between different countries, it's a difficult issue. I've worked for some companies as a sub, where we are not permitted to discuss their projects, or even reveal whom we were working for. The companies were world wide, and I believe the best they could do was to be vigilant and protect their IP by keeping personnel in their company advised of the risks and penalties for disclosure, and also maintained one or more departments to evaluate whether or not there was copied or stolen IP entering the market. Not every company has the funding to support this. I feel it is a constant effort that companies need to maintain, sadly.
 
Old 07-31-2020, 12:03 PM   #33
Geist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by igadoter View Post
Would you allow Russia to steal?
I would like it if nobody had to steal for technology.
Weapons, again, yeah I can see the thing but I also remain of the opinion that the global usury economy is worse than some random despot stealing super secrets.

Especially when the overall tech level is low.

But yeah, go steal anything, Russia, I don't care. Go steal everything. Make peoples lives better with it.

But again, that's rarely how it goes, it's dumb stuff for economy most of the time, just to get some edge in the usury drain, for a moment.

That said, I'd rather see Russia steal churches and religion in favor of Mokosh and co.
Well, that wouldn't really be stealing, anyway. More like, reclaiming original truths and undoing spiritual colonialism.

In fact, I'd love to see the entire world do that. I'm craving some diversity at this point, and not just another morph of Michael or Mary or Joseph.
But I digress hard now. Or am I? I'm not even sure at this point, things are connected after all. Maybe such a change would alleviate tensions, too.
Let Abraham rest, and all that. He has played around enough now.

Makes tech theft a bit less painful, too. It's one thing for Orthodox getting some tech stolen by Protestants, or something.
But pull that away, then maybe Chernobog is now stealing from Chernobog.
And who could be mad at that? Well, probably someone out there, but someone else other than boring Abrahams child sacrifice demon.
 
Old 07-31-2020, 06:35 PM   #34
Hermani
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Originally Posted by hazel View Post
In general, no. But most people would make an exception if it saves lives, because the right to life outweighs property rights.
Still, intellectual property is property. And if you can't afford it, you don't get it.

In The Netherlands we have a kind of upper limit a specific treatment can cost, for primary prevention it is 20k per QALY (quality adjusted life year) and for illnesses it is somewhere around 40k per QALY. Anything over that will not be eligible for reimbursement and thus will not enter the local market. Nowadays our health minister is busy negotiating deals with the pharmaceutical industry and these deals are kept secret on the request of the industry.

This also means that every month or so there is a story in the newspaper of a patient that "can't get the treatment they need to get well" while abroad "everybody gets it" because it can "save their live". Usually this means a special treatment that will improve life expectancy about one month in 15% of patients or so for a very substantial amount of money, like half a million US$.

You really can't spend a euro only once. And with that kind of money you can also treat like 200 patients for a year with e.g. the newest cholesterol lowering drugs and make a significant impact on recurrence rates of myocardial infarction for years to come.

Most of the time these people need a good talk about life and the end of it and no $500k treatment.

What I am more worried about is the other end of the spectrum. People that need good primary prevention or secondary prevention, and don't get that. Primary health care providers that are too busy to get their patient cholesterol in check or their diabetes under control. In the UK the access to primary health care is so bad that life expectancy is going down because tumors are more frequently diagnosed in a later stage on a A&E.. And then China comes around with their generic medicine that is produced so cheaply and without care that last year there were two or three instances that regularly prescribed drugs were contaminated with carcinogens and had to be pulled out of the market after being distributed.

This most certainly is penny-wise pound-foolish.
 
Old 07-31-2020, 09:17 PM   #35
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"India used to provide generic versions of many of these drugs at affordable prices for the developing world. Was this stealing?"

In almost all cases India had legal rights to produce the drugs and sell them in their country.

Big drug companies know that a drug sold in the USA carries a huge risk in terms of lawsuits. (rightly or wrongly so)
They know that the strict standards required to produce them in USA labs costs a lot of money.
They know that there is huge competition and they have shareholders to pay (maybe).
There is also a huge supply chain where everyone wants to get a cut.
A $100 dollar pill in the USA may only bring $5 under most insurance deals. Saying it costs $100 is really kind of fake.

Now in India they have almost no risk of lawsuit, almost no requirement for standards, little production costs, no long term debt, no competition, and no supply chain issues. Their $5 pill is sold for $2.

Last edited by jefro; 08-06-2020 at 05:46 PM.
 
Old 07-31-2020, 09:18 PM   #36
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I am not sure China believes they are stealing. Maybe to them it just looks like a ripe apple tree and if they can grab a few and run so much the sweeter.
 
Old 08-01-2020, 03:44 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jefro View Post
I am not sure China believes they are stealing. Maybe to them it just looks like a ripe apple tree and if they can grab a few and run so much the sweeter.
Let not go into does steal is good or bad - what circumstances can justify it. Theft by China means for me first of all involvment of China governement, officials, people working for governement, companies owned by governement. Not like one private company is trying to steal from another its secrets. But rather procedure accepted by China governement and being implemented. Systematically according to plan. Kind of fast way of development - it is easier and much faster to bribe, steal than provide own development, research. It is cheaper to spend milion dollar to bribe that professor than educate enough people in China. Beacuses in education there is no guarantees of success. All this money comes from producing goods. Clothes, electronic, whatever. So from one hand China is earning a lot of money selling simple goods, from other hand is buying or perhaps bribing with this moeny to get access to high-tech, advanced knowledge.

Last edited by igadoter; 08-01-2020 at 03:48 AM.
 
Old 08-01-2020, 04:06 AM   #38
ondoho
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve R. View Post
Second, one can steal a physical object, like a bicycle, as it deprives the owner of that piece of property. If India manufactures its own generic version of a drug and freely distributes it, that is not stealing since it is not depriving the "owner" of that property.
Ah yes, this was the distinction I've been missing here all along.
Although I think everybody knew what OP / thread title meant anyhow.

Of course patent holders disagree, but this looks like valid argumentation to me:
1. these things are manufactured here, with our machines, our workers
2. we do not recognize your imperialist patent laws anyhow

Nevertheless this doesn't make it morally superior. I'm sure China would be very upset if the same happened the other way round.
 
Old 08-06-2020, 11:46 AM   #39
rokytnji
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Well. If everyone would get their head out of their kiesters.

There is a solution to this kind of thinking. It requires you to re think how to live. Get rid of the selfish habits.

https://www.thezeitgeistmovement.com/

I am a happy camper with a motorcycle and sleeping bag. My needs were always simple when growing up. The world brain washed me to be what I am. A c0nsumer.
 
Old 08-06-2020, 05:35 PM   #40
Hermani
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rokytnji View Post
There is a solution to this kind of thinking. It requires you to re think how to live. Get rid of the selfish habits.

I am a happy camper with a motorcycle and sleeping bag. My needs were always simple when growing up. The world brain washed me to be what I am. A c0nsumer.
Sure you can dream all you want. But people have been working hard to make your motorcycle run. And your sleeping bag warm. And if they then make these products they rely on our system called society to pay them somehow for their hard labour.

In China they don't care about that. They take the hard labour of inventors, makers, whatever people that in fact invent and design things and give NOTHING in return. The more this continues the more innovation will come to a halt. This in stark contrast to the open source community where it is a give-and-take thing and people as well as businesses contribute to a common goal.

Only "good" thing is that Chinese companies generally don't care much about quality control so a lot of products are still inferior. Which is WORSE because now these goods are produced using precious resources but quickly end up in a landfill because they suck. And I know, I just had to chuck an almost brand new outboard motor into the recycle bin because the manufacturer had cut so many corners that the thing had become completely unreliable after three days of use. I did not mind buying another (now Japanese) one, but I was very sorry this motor, forged and assembled on the other side of the world using a lot of energy and raw material, was destined for recycling because the design was so poor the thing never had a chance.

Other "good" thing is that the Chinese school system is designed to stamp out all creativity. This means that people that DO appreciate creative minds will, in the end, still have the upper hand over the Chinese copy-paste mentality.
 
Old 08-08-2020, 09:34 AM   #41
cwizardone
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Here you go. This sort if thing has been going on for decades, long before gates started using similar tactics.

https://www.foxbusiness.com/markets/...ed-car-company

Last edited by cwizardone; 08-08-2020 at 09:42 AM.
 
Old 08-08-2020, 05:09 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by cwizardone View Post
Here you go. This sort if thing has been going on for decades, long before gates started using similar tactics.
Maybe they copied his take-over tactics. Anyway a Dutch businessman was building a factory and one day, he took a wrong turn, but still ended up at his factory - only thing: it was in another place. Turned out that they were actually copying his whole factory. They've even been copying European cities for almost two decades now.

They're working away to get a dominant position on the world stage and have been planning to do so for a longer time. Take the Belt and Road initiative in which China plans to dominate world trade and "create a unified large market" all under Chinese supervision, of course. Planned date of completion: 2049 - so now you know . If you take a good read into the BRI you see it is very obvious what they're up to. And their political system helps this red steamroller to go along as well.
 
  


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