LinuxQuestions.org
Did you know LQ has a Linux Hardware Compatibility List?
Go Back   LinuxQuestions.org > Forums > Non-*NIX Forums > General
User Name
Password
General This forum is for non-technical general discussion which can include both Linux and non-Linux topics. Have fun!

Notices

View Poll Results: Do you argue with yourself about free will?
No, I believe that we are immensely complex machines, and that free will is an illusion. 4 14.81%
No, I believe that we have free will, and that not all of our decisions are determined by physics. 6 22.22%
Yes, I drive myself insane over this every day... 3 11.11%
I sometimes wonder about it, but I don't think about it too much. 6 22.22%
None of the above 8 29.63%
Voters: 27. You may not vote on this poll

Closed Thread
 
Search this Thread
Old 08-13-2010, 02:44 PM   #31
brianL
LQ 5k Club
 
Registered: Jan 2006
Location: Oldham, Lancs, England
Distribution: Slackware & Slackware64 14.1
Posts: 6,861
Blog Entries: 51

Rep: Reputation: Disabled

Quote:
Originally Posted by mostlyharmless View Post
Sounds like a good list for the next poll in General..

Is brianL?
A: Controlled by quarks
B: Possessed
C: Born under a bad sign
D: All of the above
 
Old 08-13-2010, 02:46 PM   #32
Jeebizz
Senior Member
 
Registered: May 2004
Distribution: Slackware 14.1 64-bit with multilib
Posts: 2,074

Rep: Reputation: 193Reputation: 193
Naah, brianL is just misunderstood.
 
Old 08-13-2010, 03:15 PM   #33
MrCode
Member
 
Registered: Aug 2009
Location: Oregon, USA
Distribution: Arch
Posts: 864
Blog Entries: 31

Original Poster
Rep: Reputation: 147Reputation: 147
Quote:
Originally Posted by mostlyharmless
existential angst (which I think describes the topic) is relatively common at 18
Great...so I'm just another sheeple no matter what...I'm just a machine after all.

Apparently existential angst is just another fixed state within it...there's no escaping the machine.

Quote:
You'll figure it out, hopefully.
Well, at least you used the word "hopefully", rather than "eventually", which is suggestive of predestination (at least in my eyes, anymore ).

EDIT: I *am* somewhat "spiritual" (if you want to call it that), and I have some hopes that many of you here would probably think I'm crazy for having, so I won't share them here.

But, a) I fear that I'm only "spiritual" because my mom is (she's really against any fixed "religion"), and b) There are so many things about "spiritualism" that I don't agree with, and yet if I don't agree with them, I feel I must be agreeing with predestination/determinism! It's either one or the other!

Either I dump my computer/Linux interest to become more "spiritual", or I go mentally insane over the whole "are we free?" business...or is there a third choice?

Last edited by MrCode; 08-13-2010 at 03:23 PM.
 
Old 08-13-2010, 04:14 PM   #34
XavierP
Moderator
 
Registered: Nov 2002
Location: Kent, England
Distribution: Lubuntu
Posts: 19,174
Blog Entries: 4

Rep: Reputation: 428Reputation: 428Reputation: 428Reputation: 428Reputation: 428
For the third time, you haven't answered my questions. Please do so.
 
Old 08-13-2010, 04:23 PM   #35
brianL
LQ 5k Club
 
Registered: Jan 2006
Location: Oldham, Lancs, England
Distribution: Slackware & Slackware64 14.1
Posts: 6,861
Blog Entries: 51

Rep: Reputation: Disabled
Well, you seem to have allowed a few people to convince you that determinism is the answer. Are you that easily led? You want to believe in free will, SO DO IT.
 
Old 08-13-2010, 04:48 PM   #36
MrCode
Member
 
Registered: Aug 2009
Location: Oregon, USA
Distribution: Arch
Posts: 864
Blog Entries: 31

Original Poster
Rep: Reputation: 147Reputation: 147
Quote:
Originally Posted by XavierP
For the third time, you haven't answered my questions. Please do so.
Q: "Why do you obsess over this whole predestination thing if you can't find the answer?"
A: I'm afraid that someone, somewhere (or many someones) has actually found the answer, and that it's that determinism wins out...but I'm afraid to go out and look it up, because I don't want to actually find that I was right! You could say that I'm just pessimistic in that regard, though...

Q: "Even if you found the answer, what would you do to change it?"
A: I really don't know. I've sworn that I wouldn't kill myself, though, so that option is out...maybe I would just stop living; not suicide, just kind of *stopping*.

I probably sound really quite insane now, don't I? I'm actually a cool-headed person most of the time, it's just when I get on this predestination kick that I get frustrated, angry, and upset at both myself and others.

...although, I suppose the "internet filter" (the fact that we're communicating through text rather than verbally) doesn't help with convincing people of that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by brianL
Well, you seem to have allowed a few people to convince you that determinism is the answer.
...which only proves their point further.
 
Old 08-13-2010, 04:51 PM   #37
Jeebizz
Senior Member
 
Registered: May 2004
Distribution: Slackware 14.1 64-bit with multilib
Posts: 2,074

Rep: Reputation: 193Reputation: 193
Perhaps you should read John Stuart Mill and his views on free will? Perhaps that might cheer you up.
 
Old 08-13-2010, 05:10 PM   #38
MrCode
Member
 
Registered: Aug 2009
Location: Oregon, USA
Distribution: Arch
Posts: 864
Blog Entries: 31

Original Poster
Rep: Reputation: 147Reputation: 147
That's reacting to the environment (reading the book), and responding based on my brain's structure ("cheer[ing] [me] up").

The problem is, the determinists' arguments make perfect sense to me, and yet they devastate me on the inside!

Perhaps I haven't gained enough perspective, and just need to see things from a true free-will-believer's point of view to really be able to decide for myself what is the truth?

...maybe I will read the book...where to find?
 
Old 08-13-2010, 05:21 PM   #39
brianL
LQ 5k Club
 
Registered: Jan 2006
Location: Oldham, Lancs, England
Distribution: Slackware & Slackware64 14.1
Posts: 6,861
Blog Entries: 51

Rep: Reputation: Disabled
Frankly, I don't give two ****s for the free will vs determinism argument, or any other philosophical woffling. If you think it's a valid excuse for self-pity and whining, you need to meet people who have really suffered, who have genuine cause to feel depressed.
I'm off to watch "A Clockwork Orange", haven't seen it for ages. Perhaps aversion therapy could help you?

Last edited by brianL; 08-13-2010 at 05:23 PM.
 
Old 08-13-2010, 05:25 PM   #40
mostlyharmless
Senior Member
 
Registered: Jan 2008
Distribution: Slackware 14.1 (multilib) with kernel 3.13.2
Posts: 1,481
Blog Entries: 11

Rep: Reputation: 149Reputation: 149
Quote:
Either I dump my computer/Linux interest to become more "spiritual", or I go mentally insane over the whole "are we free?" business...or is there a third choice?
Well, clearly from the posts here, there are some of us who are "spiritual" or who are believers or have faith and yet we still seem to enjoy computers and Linux. So it's a bit of a false dichotomy you've presented yourself with.

If we're recommending reading, not as reacting to the environment, but to discover how others have thought about things so that you can decide for yourself in a better informed manner, then perhaps Immanuel Kant.

Or there's brianL's suggestion for a bit of viddy with the moloko and ultraviolence. Of course, don't forget, the answer is D.

Last edited by mostlyharmless; 08-13-2010 at 05:26 PM.
 
Old 08-13-2010, 05:41 PM   #41
ntubski
Senior Member
 
Registered: Nov 2005
Distribution: Debian
Posts: 2,386

Rep: Reputation: 808Reputation: 808Reputation: 808Reputation: 808Reputation: 808Reputation: 808Reputation: 808
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrCode View Post
How can you hold any ideals if everything is predestined? Why not just calculate a best estimate of what will happen? After all, we're just machines, and as such our behavior can be clearly predicted...
Even if the universe is theoretically deterministic, that doesn't mean there is anybody who can actually make any useful predictions. After all you need information on every particle in the universe, and since your brain is smaller than the universe...

Also I'm still interested in answers to my previous questions (from anybody who believes in souls, not just MrCode).
 
Old 08-13-2010, 05:53 PM   #42
mostlyharmless
Senior Member
 
Registered: Jan 2008
Distribution: Slackware 14.1 (multilib) with kernel 3.13.2
Posts: 1,481
Blog Entries: 11

Rep: Reputation: 149Reputation: 149
@ntubski previous questions: for obvious reasons
 
Old 08-13-2010, 05:59 PM   #43
damgar
Senior Member
 
Registered: Sep 2009
Location: dallas, tx
Distribution: Slackware - current multilib/gsb Arch
Posts: 1,949
Blog Entries: 8

Rep: Reputation: 201Reputation: 201Reputation: 201
Quote:
Originally Posted by mostlyharmless View Post
Sounds like a good list for the next poll in General.

On topic, existential angst (which I think describes the topic) is relatively common at 18 and usually cured in college with reading philosophy and drinking beer.
You'll figure it out, hopefully.
Girls help too.
 
Old 08-13-2010, 06:31 PM   #44
XavierP
Moderator
 
Registered: Nov 2002
Location: Kent, England
Distribution: Lubuntu
Posts: 19,174
Blog Entries: 4

Rep: Reputation: 428Reputation: 428Reputation: 428Reputation: 428Reputation: 428
@MrCode: my questions were:
Quote:
how would you know which state life exists in? once you have this knowledge, what will you do to change it? a follow up to that - does it need to be changed?
You only answered the middle question.
 
Old 08-13-2010, 08:04 PM   #45
hilyard
Member
 
Registered: Jan 2010
Location: Inland PNW
Distribution: Salent | Salix
Posts: 284

Rep: Reputation: 63
"I don't understand this: if your decisions are determined by something that is not physics, how does that give you free will? What makes something 'not physics'?

Suppose you have a 'soul' in which your decisions/thoughts originate, does that mean you are free, or are you 'controlled' by your 'soul'?"

Q: Is Zero Point Energy (ZPE) 'not physics?' Hardly -- http://www.calphysics.org/zpe.html Does ZPE give one free will? No, we inherently have the ability to choose between pairs of opposites (AKA "free will") and it's a given.

See the Section: "What is the zero-point field in physics?" at http://www.thegodtheory.com/questionsanswers.htmor the site http://phasing.org/2010/01/05/physic...avity-inertia/ for further explanation of how Quantum Physics is inevitably leading us towards the the Ultimate. Following, we come to http://www.scienceprovescreation.com/intro.aspx and its exposition that ZPE is the underlying "light" of the universe. Ergo, the ultimate choice? Between serving Light or chooing Dark.

(Kinda reminds me of Star Wars -- LOL!)

The idea of an eternal 'soul' was popularized by Plato and originated in ancient Babylon, acording to some; others say with another, pre-Platonic philosopher (I forget his name). See the last site citation for Religion vs. Spirituality. An "eternal soul" is nonsense and a thing of mankind's religions, not Truth.
 
  


Closed Thread


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
newbie question: whats the difference between "su root", "su" and "su -&quo mojarron Slackware 9 12-07-2009 04:08 PM
Question regarding this line "Free taken as in free speech, not free beer" SHENGTON Linux - Newbie 11 01-12-2009 07:40 AM
LXer: Merging "Open Source" and "Free Software" LXer Syndicated Linux News 2 08-08-2007 04:27 AM
Can you explain the difference between "Free Software (GNU)" and "Open Source"? vharishankar General 5 03-03-2005 09:40 AM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:30 PM.

Main Menu
My LQ
Write for LQ
LinuxQuestions.org is looking for people interested in writing Editorials, Articles, Reviews, and more. If you'd like to contribute content, let us know.
Main Menu
Syndicate
RSS1  Latest Threads
RSS1  LQ News
Twitter: @linuxquestions
identi.ca: @linuxquestions
Facebook: linuxquestions Google+: linuxquestions
Open Source Consulting | Domain Registration