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Old 02-20-2018, 10:07 AM   #46
enorbet
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It's not about lying, Mr. Alex, when referring to oneself and our political affiliation. It is common that if one identifies very strongly with any one label, they lack understanding of that which the label is purported to describe and often, of themselves as well since labels of extremes tend to be rather 2 dimensional, and humans in general are not that simple. For example in the case of the current Republican party in the US, many people, especially those in the lower economic classes, are "One Issue Republicans". They may have no interest in the main thrust of the party but ignore that disconnect as long as party rhetoric identifies with Their Big Issue.

Many people who use terms like "Conservative" and "Liberal" have extremely little understanding of what those concepts actually mean and use them only or mostly to describe Others, so they can disregard anything they say or do. Additionally political parties evolve and change or at the very least try to appear to in order to be a "catch all".

What you refer to when writing about "You sure can say anything about yourself and be something totally different" is exactly what ChangTzu and others here, including me, surmise about you, that you profess to have been a Linux User "once upon a time" yet now profess the glories of Windows (old windows at that) and call Linux "garbage". The simple fact is that nobody with any appreciable level of expertise in Linux would ever say that... either one! regarding Windows or Linux. The Cathedral and The Bazaar are extremely different, near polar opposites, by design and philosophy. It is as unlikely as Trump becoming a Democrat as you actually being a former Linux user now affiliated with Windows by choice.
 
Old 02-20-2018, 11:02 AM   #47
cynwulf
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The Cathedral and the Bazaar is a little misplaced here. That work only discussed open source development models and while proprietary software development could be said to be based on the Cathedral model, except that with proprietary software, source is not publicly released, "Linux vs Windows" is not simply a matter of Cathedral / Bazaar.

A lot of FOSS software uses the Cathdedral model and as I understand it, ESR wrote the piece around the time when many developers were getting frustrated with how GCC was developed (Cathedral style).

Last edited by cynwulf; 02-20-2018 at 11:05 AM. Reason: silly typo
 
Old 02-20-2018, 11:29 AM   #48
Mr. Alex
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet
What you refer to when writing about "You sure can say anything about yourself and be something totally different" is exactly what ChangTzu and others here, including me, surmise about you, that you profess to have been a Linux User "once upon a time" yet now profess the glories of Windows (old windows at that) and call Linux "garbage". The simple fact is that nobody with any appreciable level of expertise in Linux would ever say that... either one!
I used to be a Linux User "once upon a time" indeed but then I disappointed greatly in this system. And I disagree with you that "nobody with any appreciable level of expertise in Linux would ever say that" because that would mean all people accept what they are being fed with no questions or disagreements. Which is to say that all people are 100% driven slaves. Sad truth is most of people are but not all of them. Sometimes you like some product and it gets worse over time and you stop liking it. It's pretty simple. Don't know why anyone would have problems in understanding this simple concept. Linux is indeed garbage these days and it used to be way better in like 2006. But to like Linux just because it's LINUX no matter what (regardless of ANY degradation) is wrong. Or maybe you guys like GNU/Linux only because it's GPL. If so I wonder if you'll like Windows 10 in case it's released under GPL some day.

Here's a hypothetical question. If Windows and all its programs becomes GPL and Linux with all its programs becomes proprietary shareware would you like Windows better and switch to it?
 
Old 02-20-2018, 01:31 PM   #49
enorbet
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cynwulf View Post
The Cathedral and the Bazaar is a little misplaced here. That work only discussed open source development models and while proprietary software development could be said to be based on the Cathedral model, except that with proprietary software, source is not publicly released, "Linux vs Windows" is not simply a matter of Cathedral / Bazaar.

A lot of FOSS software uses the Cathdedral model and as I understand it, ESR wrote the piece around the time when many developers were getting frustrated with how GCC was developed (Cathedral style).
Actually I think ESR is a crazy man but he hit on something special and to me, it means more than simply Open vs Proprietary. Windows is all Centralized power. EVERYTHING depends on The Registry and \Windows\system\* . Certainly that is well-hidden when proprietary is everywhere, but still it reminds me of The Roman Catholic Church, complete with Popes and Bishops... and most importantly esoteric dogma. This is also reflected in how it grew from a Single User environment.

Linux OTOH is compartmentalized corroboration. This is one reason why Windows requires reboots so often where Linux can handle Multiple Users opening the same file and simpl;y stop, start, and restart processes on demand.

Sorry but I disagree with ESR's intent and find Cathedral and Bazaar has a much wider significance.
 
Old 02-20-2018, 01:56 PM   #50
enorbet
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Alex View Post
I used to be a Linux User "once upon a time" indeed but then I disappointed greatly in this system. And I disagree with you that "nobody with any appreciable level of expertise in Linux would ever say that" because that would mean all people accept what they are being fed with no questions or disagreements. Which is to say that all people are 100% driven slaves. Sad truth is most of people are but not all of them. Sometimes you like some product and it gets worse over time and you stop liking it. It's pretty simple. Don't know why anyone would have problems in understanding this simple concept. Linux is indeed garbage these days and it used to be way better in like 2006. But to like Linux just because it's LINUX no matter what (regardless of ANY degradation) is wrong. Or maybe you guys like GNU/Linux only because it's GPL. If so I wonder if you'll like Windows 10 in case it's released under GPL some day.

Here's a hypothetical question. If Windows and all its programs becomes GPL and Linux with all its programs becomes proprietary shareware would you like Windows better and switch to it?
Where are you getting the idea that Linux requires slavery? That's entirely a MS Windows thing where Users are generally powerless, moron cash cows. Linux is the most diverse and Free as in Speech, highly personally, adaptively configurable of any OpSys I know. Nobody had or has to tell me anything about it since I can easily see for myself.

Perfect example is your statement that you liked Arch until it went systemd. Well Arch isn't all Linux and there are several distros that either by default don't have systemd or can be configured w/o it AND the vast majority of commands and apps are all there behaving in exactly the same manner as they always did. Linux isn't a distro. It's a kernel upon which distros are easily built. You can build you own entirely from scratch.

It seems to me that anyone even attracted to an open system that lets you make huge, disastrous mistakes but learn from them instead of assuming you're an idiot who must be protected from himself, is so obviously different (and empowering) that it is impossible to ever consider that as mere "garbage". This is why I sincerely doubt that you have ever been "appreciably expert" in Linux. Perhaps you were one of those essentially seeking Free Windows, which Linux is not and I hope never gets to be.

So not only "No!" but "Hell No!" there is nothing MS could do to bring me back because any changes I would want to see, they are incapable of delivering without becoming "not Windows". I like vegetables and meat but I generally despise veggies trying to be fake meat.

Actually that you would even ask such a question is the best evidence that you were never a serious Linux devotee. Garbage indeed! L-O freakin' L.

Last edited by enorbet; 02-20-2018 at 01:58 PM.
 
Old 02-20-2018, 02:13 PM   #51
Mill J
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Alex View Post
I used to be a Linux User "once upon a time" indeed but then I disappointed greatly in this system. And I disagree with you that "nobody with any appreciable level of expertise in Linux would ever say that" because that would mean all people accept what they are being fed with no questions or disagreements. Which is to say that all people are 100% driven slaves. Sad truth is most of people are but not all of them. Sometimes you like some product and it gets worse over time and you stop liking it. It's pretty simple. Don't know why anyone would have problems in understanding this simple concept. Linux is indeed garbage these days and it used to be way better in like 2006. But to like Linux just because it's LINUX no matter what (regardless of ANY degradation) is wrong. Or maybe you guys like GNU/Linux only because it's GPL. If so I wonder if you'll like Windows 10 in case it's released under GPL some day.

Here's a hypothetical question. If Windows and all its programs becomes GPL and Linux with all its programs becomes proprietary shareware would you like Windows better and switch to it?
I've only been using Linux several years now. So could you explain why it was better in 06? What Distro did you run?

That said have you noticed the first paragraph in my signature? It's your own fault Linux is garbage....If you don't like something in Linux modify or build your own. Try doing that in Windows.

If the Os did a switch like you said ; Think about it, we would be able to configure every aspect of the system. Build custom kernels. Fork it. Why we could even do Windows From Scratch
 
Old 02-20-2018, 04:44 PM   #52
rokytnji
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Reaches for the popcorn as Firefox has left the building.

Probably to raid the Windows 7 hen house. I find it funny when a person buying a new Windows computer. They install Firefox first thing. Being a mod on a Windows and Mac forum.

I see this behavior regular like. Then on to any other free stuff they can add to their machine.

http://www.majorgeeks.com/
 
Old 02-20-2018, 07:36 PM   #53
ChuangTzu
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https://images.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=...3Fw%3D1005&f=1
 
Old 02-21-2018, 02:58 AM   #54
Mr. Alex
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet
Where are you getting the idea that Linux requires slavery? That's entirely a MS Windows thing where Users are generally powerless
Man... Can you try to understand what I write a little bit better? I was saying that those are slaves who always accept any changes in the system they exist in. "Linux requires slavery"... That is totally not the meaning of my words. "Accepting everything requires slavery" is what was meant. I don't say I like everything in Windows (after all I didn't go Windows 8/10 even though they are newer, which means I don't accept changes in Windows after 7'th version). That's true. And means I'm not a slave. And I don't accept changes that happened in Linux over time. Also makes me not a slave. I have my own understanding of a proper computer style and ideology and instead of just accepting what exists out there I can say that nothing that exists today in IT world fits my understanding of how computers should be.

Another example: in 2005 we all had button cell phones. Well there were things with styluses but rather as an exception. But for the most part we used button phones with firmware (not full OSes). And I like that style of phones. That is my understanding of a proper phone I would use. Guess what. Now in 2018 like 98% of people use phones with touchscreens and full operating systems, several CPU cores and several gigs of RAM and complicated unstable software that requires updates and has planned obsolescence built in. And I bought myself a new button phone in 2017. People simply accept every change in their life they get from those who rule mainstream. And I have my own understanding and don't follow the crowd. Like I didn't switch to smartphones just because all people say it's soooooo cool and modern and fancy and you're basically nobody if you don't have smartphone that is up to date.

So one day there was Linux I liked. And then it changed. A lot. Like 95% of Linux users said "OK, well, yeah, we'll have to get used to it, well, yeah, it's actually kinda cool... etc...". For these people everything is cool that is being pushed on them by those who produce things. These people appear to have no critical thinking. When systemd was first released I noticed huge outcry from Linux community. Where is this outcry now? It doesn't exist because almost all Linux users accepted systemd over time. See? Just give them time and they'll eat everything and will say it was tasty. And if you tell them "Wait! That thing you ate is a toxic garbage" thay would reply "You're just a troll if you don't like it".

Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet
Perfect example is your statement that you liked Arch until it went systemd. Well Arch isn't all Linux
I know, but I liked Arch a lot. Out of all flavours of Linux this one was the best for me. After Arch died I couldn't find anything that would be even closely that good. And creating my own distro from scratch is an overkill. I didn't have time and knoledge to do that.
 
Old 02-21-2018, 03:12 AM   #55
Mr. Alex
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Originally Posted by Mill J
I've only been using Linux several years now. So could you explain why it was better in 06? What Distro did you run?
Well I wasn't using Linux in 2006 yet. I just read and watched how it was. I started using Linux in 2010.

Just take a look at these:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZFPNLWJ7YI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-LOD6Pa4pk0

Brings back warm memories... :-)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mill J
That said have you noticed the first paragraph in my signature? It's your own fault Linux is garbage....If you don't like something in Linux modify or build your own. ... If the Os did a switch like you said ; Think about it, we would be able to configure every aspect of the system. Build custom kernels. Fork it.
I don't have time, knoledge and all other resources to recreate and maintain Linux of like 2006. It even sounds like a joke. Thousands of people were creating all that back then and you suggest I can redo it and maintain all by myself?
 
Old 02-21-2018, 03:23 AM   #56
Mr. Alex
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Originally Posted by rokytnji
Probably to raid the Windows 7 hen house. I find it funny when a person buying a new Windows computer. They install Firefox first thing.
Firefox? Isn't it like dying out? Just saying...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuangTzu View Post
Show us how to do it. Don't post anything here to not feed me.
 
Old 02-21-2018, 03:28 AM   #57
jsbjsb001
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Thread reported. This thread should be closed.
 
Old 02-21-2018, 04:53 AM   #58
cynwulf
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet View Post
Actually I think ESR is a crazy man but he hit on something special and to me, it means more than simply Open vs Proprietary. Windows is all Centralized power. EVERYTHING depends on The Registry and \Windows\system\* . Certainly that is well-hidden when proprietary is everywhere, but still it reminds me of The Roman Catholic Church, complete with Popes and Bishops... and most importantly esoteric dogma. This is also reflected in how it grew from a Single User environment.
Though you have to admit - this is your opinion. ESR wrote the article and discussed something very different and very relevant to open source development. It has been cited repeatedly over the years. But on the whole it was a critique of top down vs bottom up development. It also cites "Linus' law" - which has since been proven to be more of an idealistic thing.

While Bazaar does seem the best model every time, especially in projects where there is still strong leadership and direction (e.g. Linux and OpenBSD), there are still Cathedral projects with a lot of merit, which make up a big part of the FOSS eco system, including the typical Linux distribution.

The MS Windows registry hive is a binary configuration model. It's not my preferred implementation, but it's just for storing configuration in one central place. Much like /etc + dotfiles in *nix systems.

\Windows\System32 is just a store for shared objects (dlls), it's much like /lib or /usr/lib

I don't think these structures mean a lot of take away control as such.

The registry however is a design which lends itself to hiding things (obfuscation), but equally in *nix systems you can hide things several directories deep, using confusingly structured "non human readable" formats, XML or even binary configuration. I see stuff like dconf as a good example of doing things the wrong way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet View Post
Linux OTOH is compartmentalized corroboration. This is one reason why Windows requires reboots so often where Linux can handle Multiple Users opening the same file and simpl;y stop, start, and restart processes on demand.
Windows is a consumer OS. Reboots are just a fact of life with that approach - if only for "insurance". The same goes for stuff like Android - A Linux based consumer OS. Even in the *nix world you will see the advice - "if you want to be absolutely sure, you reboot it". If you've upgraded your server, it works perfectly, you have had weeks of up-time, if that server can't cold boot, it's still broken.

Last edited by cynwulf; 02-21-2018 at 05:24 AM.
 
Old 02-21-2018, 07:12 AM   #59
ntubski
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Alex View Post
When systemd was first released I noticed huge outcry from Linux community. Where is this outcry now? It doesn't exist because almost all Linux users accepted systemd over time.
No, it's more like, we don't discuss it anymore because any thread that starts arguing over systemd just ends up in a bunch of shouting. So much so, that just mentioning systemd pretty much puts you in the troll category, even if you didn't necessarily intend to troll.
 
Old 02-21-2018, 08:15 AM   #60
Mill J
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@Mr. Alex
Seriously, systemd? Linux garbage because of systemd? http://without-systemd.org/wiki/index.php/Main_Page Try Void Linux, it is built from scratch but it mimics arch and it uses runit instead of systemd.

Here is Ubuntu from 06. Still downloadable http://old-releases.ubuntu.com/releases/ Also Arch https://www.archlinux.org/releng/releases/ Before you say !!!those are OLD, so is w7...just saying.

@jsbjsb001
Yes we'd be better off....
 
  


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