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Old 01-02-2018, 06:00 PM   #46
ntubski
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jefro View Post
What I don't get is that people are OK with the fact that one can "print" bitcoins and no one cares.
As far as I understand it, the idea is that you only successfully print a bitcoin if the majority of people CPU cycles running the bitcoin software agree with you.

Quote:
Further that the entire security of it depends on flawed programming.
What do you mean?
 
Old 01-02-2018, 06:09 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by jefro View Post
What I don't get is that people are OK with the fact that one can "print" bitcoins and no one cares. Further that the entire security of it depends on flawed programming.
....
Jefro, that is actually a myth and completely unfounded. It is called crypto-currency for a reason. Look it up. BitCoins can be mined, though that has become unprofitable recently since we are near the designated cap. The value of any fiat currency directly depends on the relationship between the number of units in existence and the number of people/institutions willing to honor it. Crypto-currency, which has a finite cap on the number of units that can exist does not suffer from Inflation for exactly the reason that it cannot be simply "printed up" by anyone. The programming is not flawed largely because the founders and main proponents are computer scientists.

If you have an interest in actually understanding the phenomenon you might find this interesting --- BitCoin Myths --- for starters. I'm not saying invest as it is high risk, but the concept is very serious and has already had and will continue to have growing impact on economies on a global scale.
 
Old 01-02-2018, 07:02 PM   #48
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"Jefro, just keep your legal tender in your pocket, no matter what Enorbet et al says about it."

The value of "money" does not depend upon its "scarcity." It is not "tied" to gold, nor to anything else on this planet that is "hard to come by." The most important thing about "legal tender" is, in fact, its complete and utter liquidity. Billions of currency units are required, every hour of every day, and all of them are available, wherever and whenever they are needed.

"Inflation" does not happen because there are "too many currency-units in circulation," because a currency-unit really only exists when it is being "circulated." Inflation only occurs when currency units are generated without anything having actually been done to "buy" them – as very-recently occurred when the US Congress spent $3 Trillion that it didn't earn. (And then, it only becomes a problem for other nations if their currency-unit is "pegged," which is very quickly becoming a thing of the past for obvious reasons.)

If someone used an ordinary printing-press to manufacture, say, "100,000, and I promise that there will never, ever be any more" pieces of paper, then there would be no laws against it. Scrip, in any form, is perfectly legal, provided that you do not refer to it as "coin" or as "money." And these pieces of paper would be just as valuable – or, not – as these digital numbers, except for the fact that they would sound "boring" and "ordinary." If your purpose was to launch the 21st century's first big con, paper wouldn't do it: you need something digital.

The "crypto-currency (sic)" scam is rounding its final curve now, as it seeks to relieve as many suckers as possible of their Legal Tender. The only thing that you need to know about it is to stay well clear. This is not the world's first con game, nor will it ever be the last.

The perpetrators of this particular scam are "in it for the long haul," and they are well-connected. They can put "ATMs" in convenience stores. They can run "news" stories bragging of how exchanges are going to start "trading," or how various governments are going to switch to it for legitimate purposes such as buying oil. In their day, the "tulip-mania" speculators were really no different. They know that in this world there are Fools, and that Fools have Money. Just do not be one of those Fools.

The "pundits" will be quick to rush to their own defense. Just remember, however, that everyone who got suckered by a scam did so either because they were afraid that they had everything to lose (which caused them to subsequently do so, alas), or because they were confident that they were smarter than the average bear, and that they somehow saw something that everybody else didn't.

If someone's determined to be suckered, then they will do it, for their own reasons, and there's nothing that you can do to keep them from walking right up to that cliff and jumping off. Just don't follow in their footsteps. Right up until the last, and well beyond, they'll be insisting that you are the fool. Just keep your feet on the ground as you wave them good-bye.

Last edited by sundialsvcs; 01-02-2018 at 07:28 PM.
 
Old 01-02-2018, 09:04 PM   #49
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FFS Sundial I not only did NOT recommend investing in crypto-currency I specifically warned against it. You have misrepresented my words. Nobody should ever recommend an investment with a history of high risk BUT that does not equal being a scam. There are numerous problems with State Authorized (and printed) currency, so-called legal tender. Got any Confederate money? In addition to that most obvious of problems there are severe issues with trading globally which is exactly the main reason why Europe went Euro. It helped some but does not solve a number of greater problems. Credit issued by banks is becoming a major problem since banks and lending institutions can refuse to pay for goods and services you legally try to purchase with your money. I'm using "your money" because whether it is a debit card (where it is already YOUR money) or a credit card for which you are legally compelled to honor, they are legally allowed to act as if they own your money. Something has to give and crypto-currency is just in it's infancy but naturally scares the bejeezus out of governments and police.

You may not like it and you are well-advised to remain skeptical and cautious but something will grow out of this movement because it is needed and desired AND by legitimate institutions and individuals. I am merely an interested observer who wishes I had mined bitcoin when that was still viable and hopes money manages to free itself from Dictators of all sorts.

As for "rounding it's final curve" how do you explain at least half a dozen new crypto-currencies created in just the past year? Sooner or later one will go mainstream. It is by no means over.

Last edited by enorbet; 01-02-2018 at 09:06 PM.
 
Old 01-03-2018, 01:43 AM   #50
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There are already scam emails inviting you to invest in bitcoin. A friend of mine has received several.
 
Old 01-03-2018, 02:59 AM   #51
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The phenomenon is definitely causing lots of entertainment:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...ory/973173001/

Some of the currencies will make the grade technically and one may eventually catch on but few have the math skills to sort the wheat from the chaff. Then there would be the additional programming skills to evaluate the infrastructure for each one. Even assuming the narrow subset of skills there is still a time issue and with so many it is not feasible.
One thing at least, in the long run the forks of bitcoin can be ignored.
 
Old 01-03-2018, 04:15 AM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hazel View Post
There are already scam emails inviting you to invest in bitcoin. A friend of mine has received several.
Just to be clear, nobody creates scams about worthless, undesirable items. Almost anything of value invites scams but the thing itself must be of trusted value.. land, money, Art, jewelry, gold mines, bridges, etc.
 
Old 01-03-2018, 05:53 AM   #53
hazel
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet View Post
Just to be clear, nobody creates scams about worthless, undesirable items. Almost anything of value invites scams but the thing itself must be of trusted value.. land, money, Art, jewelry, gold mines, bridges, etc.
Not necessarily. It just has to be something that people think is valuable. The current hullaballoo about bitcoin makes it very suitable for sale by scam artists.
 
Old 01-03-2018, 09:39 AM   #54
sundialsvcs
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Enorbet, if I mis-represented you, then I hereby publicly apologize.

No, none of the so-called "crypto-currencies" will ever "go mainstream." All of them are scams, all of them will probably run their course, and all of them will ultimately fail because the essential concept behind them is flawed.

These are barter tokens, nothing more or less. They are not "needed or desired" by institutions, nor are governments "scared of it." The perpetrators of these scams are preying on public fears, which they strive to promote, and by a lack of understanding of what they actually are, which the perpetrators also strive to promote. Con-artists always ply their trade, and they always have exactly the same modus operandi. Only the details change. This time, it's a number, not a tulip.

You can "pay for things" in an ever-increasing number of ways: you can even "tap your phone" at Starbucks. But all of these methods are directly convertible to legal tender, and if you "pay $1.00" using any of those methods (at a merchant who accepts them), the value of that transaction is: "exactly one dollar." It must be honored exactly as any other "dollar" would be. There is no "agreement" that the value is worth more, or less, than exactly "one dollar." In all its forms, it is "one dollar."

Bitcoin is a form of barter, and its tokens have no value except "what a willing buyer will right-now accept from a willing seller." If someone steals your bitcoins, you have lost property, not money, because the State does not recognize it as any form of legal-tender. A dollar "is legal tender for all debts, public and private," anywhere in the United States. But all of these digital objects, which right now call themselves "crypto currencies," are in fact not "currency" of any form at all.

The scams, one by one by one, will evolve in exactly the same way: they'll sell "bitcoin mining machines" (notice: always requiring payment in dollars ...), and maybe they'll succeed in setting up machines – for a time – in convenience stores through which they will relieve patrons of their legal-tender. For a time, the scam will be allowed to run. But then, as with each and every confidence game, the trap will then spring shut.

Lawsuits will be dutifully filed, but the lawyers will probably sell the case that, in fact, no laws have been broken. Barter "scrip" currency is not illegal. You chose to buy and trade bitcoin-units. The value of the token is determined by mutual agreement, and when abruptly that value becomes "zero," no laws have been broken. You've just been fleeced. But, you did it to yourself. The choice was always yours.

So, keep your eyes wide-open and your wallet in your pocket. You know this game, and this game is different only in the 21st-century details. Therefore, you know how the game will end – you just don't know exactly when. The choice to "get fleeced" would be your own. But, so is the choice not to.

Last edited by sundialsvcs; 01-03-2018 at 09:42 AM.
 
Old 01-04-2018, 01:30 AM   #55
enorbet
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hazel View Post
Not necessarily. It just has to be something that people think is valuable. The current hullaballoo about bitcoin makes it very suitable for sale by scam artists.
While I think "hullabaloo" relates to "desirable value" and there does exist people (and governments) that have received windfall profits from trucking in Bitcoin, I am interested in just how you think a scam artist can utilize Bitcoin, or any crypto-currency, to fleece someone of something of greater value. Could you elucidate, please?
 
Old 01-04-2018, 01:55 AM   #56
enorbet
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As always, sundialsvcs, I respect your right to your opinion but until this plays out, the very fact that many millions of dollars (and other legal tender) have revolved around crypto-currency reveals a widespread need, if nothing else. Many people all over the world are sick and tired of the downsides of legal tender - the no tax paying ultra rich, the endorsed schemes like Enron, the hubris of credit card companies, the difficulties in trading globally even with friendly countries, and let's not forget inflation. Something has to give and something will. It may not be Bitcoin. It may not even be crypto-currency but once a concept becomes accomplished fact as it already has with Bitcoin, somebody will find a way because "there's gold in them thar hills". Nature abhors a vacuum and people of means find a way to fill it, too.... for a price.

BTW and FWIW go to forbes.com and note that the number one topic of interest, displayed on the front page in large print, is "How to buy Bitcoin". The current value of Bitcoin is just under $15,000.00 USD and some of the major entrepreneurs in it expect it to hit $60,000.00 USD within two years and before "the Bitcoin Winter" that they also recognize is sure to come but followed by yet another Spring. Some people will very likely "take a bath" but just as certainly somebody(s) are going to get a very handsome return on investment. Quadrupling one's money in two years may not exactly be quick, but it ain't too shabby.
 
Old 01-04-2018, 02:18 AM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet View Post
While I think "hullabaloo" relates to "desirable value" and there does exist people (and governments) that have received windfall profits from trucking in Bitcoin, I am interested in just how you think a scam artist can utilize Bitcoin, or any crypto-currency, to fleece someone of something of greater value. Could you elucidate, please?
No, I can't because I haven't received any emails on the subject, but my guess is that the scam works just like all the other investment scams (carbon credits, fine wines, etc.) You write a cheque (in real money of course) to be invested in some kind of bitcoin fund, and they cash it and walk off with the money. End of story.
 
Old 01-04-2018, 02:24 AM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet View Post
As for "rounding it's final curve" how do you explain at least half a dozen new crypto-currencies created in just the past year? Sooner or later one will go mainstream. It is by no means over.
Tencent and/or Alibaba will probably release something and, if it is technicaly viable, mainland China will back it -- and control it.
 
Old 01-04-2018, 10:04 AM   #59
sundialsvcs
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Enorbet, when the crypto-scam "trap is sprung," it will probably go down as the most financially-costly scam in history ... if a substantial number of people fall for it, but I don't think they will.

We've had "barter currencies" for years. Some industries use barter among related suppliers for tax purposes and other reasons – legally. If theirs is basically a closed trade-system, then bartering can save a lot of money.

The con-artists are deliberately preying on frustration with "big financial institutions that no one can control." The illusion is that now you are taking matters into your own hands, protecting your loved ones, yada yada yada. But, this is a pretty common sales-model that has been used for many cons.

Encyclopedia Brittanica actually did a much better article on this topic than WikiPedia has done to date. (Although WP's list of confidence tricks is revealing.)

The only interesting variation in this con-game is the fact that it is based on digital tokens, and because it is being marketed worldwide ... which ought not surprise anyone today, given that the Internet has such a reach. But they're planting news stories all over the world. So, this is a big con, and lots of people obviously expect to make gobs of money from it when the time comes. Well, "the 21st century is upon us" now, and crime should be expected to evolve, too.

Stay away, and especially watch your vulnerable (elderly) relatives. Then, sit back and watch the show ... with your wallet firmly in your pocket. "This is how the big boys run a con-game."

Last edited by sundialsvcs; 01-04-2018 at 10:06 AM.
 
Old 01-04-2018, 05:46 PM   #60
enorbet
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hazel View Post
No, I can't because I haven't received any emails on the subject, but my guess is that the scam works just like all the other investment scams (carbon credits, fine wines, etc.) You write a cheque (in real money of course) to be invested in some kind of bitcoin fund, and they cash it and walk off with the money. End of story.
I hope you (and everyone else) agree that it is not advisable to even open email from an unknown, unsolicited source, let alone to send money or information in response. Anyone willing to brave the risk of crypto-currency should at least be wise and cautious enough to only have dealings that you initiate.
 
  


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