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Old 12-19-2017, 11:27 PM   #16
ntubski
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hazel View Post
But then what about us desktop users? Why should we have foisted on us[...]
Quote:
Originally Posted by hazel View Post
why push systemd down everybody's throats?
I don't understand this sentiment. Is anyone holding a gun to your head? If you don't want systemd, don't use it.

You can passively accept the software which other produce (freely!), letting others make the choices for you. Or you can actively make your own choices. But taking software produced by others and then complaining about it just seems in poor taste to me.
 
Old 12-19-2017, 11:34 PM   #17
frankbell
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OK, that explains the behaviour of Red Hat. But the only other distro that I know of which belongs to a business is Ubuntu. Debian and Arch are community projects. So I ask again, why push systemd down everybody's throats?
I doubt that anyone forced SystemD down, say, Mageia's and Debian's throats. Indeed, the Debian community discussed switching to SystemD extensively.

The most irritating quality of SystemD is that it works.

I've mentioned before that I have a friend who is sysadmin of a middle-sized thin-client network with a RHEL server and Fedora clients who reports that the machines with SystemD boot more smoothly and quickly than before SystemD.

I will offer an analogy.

I don't like Chevrolets (I grew up Ford) and it pains me more than you can imagine to admit that my 14-year-old GMC pickup with 140,000+ miles on it is a darned fine piece of work that still runs like a top, but it is, even if it is just a glorified Chevrolet S10.

Last edited by frankbell; 12-19-2017 at 11:39 PM.
 
Old 12-20-2017, 02:45 AM   #18
hazel
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ntubski View Post
I don't understand this sentiment. Is anyone holding a gun to your head? If you don't want systemd, don't use it.

You can passively accept the software which other produce (freely!), letting others make the choices for you. Or you can actively make your own choices. But taking software produced by others and then complaining about it just seems in poor taste to me.
I think Cynwulf has already answered that point comprehensively. Yes, at the moment we do have a choice, but the increasing systemd dependencies are making that choice more and more difficult. AntiX, for example, mainly uses Debian software but has to provide alternative systemd-free versions of more and more packages.

I have three main systems and only one of them (Debian) uses systemd. But the other two are source-based and most people use binary distros.

I'm not a rabid opponent. I think Frankbell is right when he points out that systemd boots a lot faster. It closes down faster too. And it's easier to write systemd service files than it is to write initscripts. But I still prefer not to have it because it adds complication and I like simplicity.
 
Old 12-20-2017, 05:08 AM   #19
cynwulf
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frankbell View Post
The most irritating quality of SystemD is that it works.
Windows and macOS also work.

Quote:
Originally Posted by frankbell View Post
I've mentioned before that I have a friend who is sysadmin of a middle-sized thin-client network with a RHEL server and Fedora clients who reports that the machines with SystemD boot more smoothly and quickly than before SystemD.
It's all anecdotal evidence. Anyone who is invested in something, will naturally be resolved to just use it or actually does really like it and as such will tell you that it works for them and defend it regardless.

Personally I don't know what defines a "smooth boot", I also don't really care much about how quickly a system boots up, so long as it does boot and takes less than a minute or so. My old sysvinit based Linux systems managed to boot and were quick enough.
 
Old 12-20-2017, 07:54 AM   #20
ntubski
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hazel View Post
I think Cynwulf has already answered that point comprehensively. Yes, at the moment we do have a choice, but the increasing systemd dependencies are making that choice more and more difficult. AntiX, for example, mainly uses Debian software but has to provide alternative systemd-free versions of more and more packages.

I have three main systems and only one of them (Debian) uses systemd. But the other two are source-based and most people use binary distros.
So contribute your time and/or money to Devuan, I guess. Otherwise, it seems we have the Evil Coroporation putting money/development work into the systemd side, while the anti-systemd side has the "community", i.e., a bunch of kvetchers.
 
Old 12-20-2017, 08:54 AM   #21
cynwulf
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As well as Devuan there's also antiX which is "systemd-less". There is a list of systemd free distributions maintained here:

http://without-systemd.org/wiki/inde..._distributions

(some other OS which don't use systemd are also listed)

Be aware that Devuan still isn't quite a "fork" and is still just a Debian derivative. It uses some rebuilt packages and some package blacklisting.

From what research I've done, Slackware (or Salix) seem better options if one wants Linux without systemd and without lots of hassle.

Last edited by cynwulf; 12-20-2017 at 08:55 AM.
 
Old 12-20-2017, 01:55 PM   #22
patrick295767
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ntubski View Post
I don't understand this sentiment. Is anyone holding a gun to your head? If you don't want systemd, don't use it.
If you don't want to use it, LFS takes lot of time, you know. Still, few distros only haven't made the move.

Even Linus himself uses a distro.

There are many things to do in life, as said LMS.
 
Old 12-20-2017, 02:44 PM   #23
Timothy Miller
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It's not like there's not distro's that don't have it. Just use one that hasn't adapted it, or don't complain...easy.
 
Old 12-20-2017, 03:55 PM   #24
cynwulf
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Stop complaining about those who like to complain about their init system choice (or lack of therein)...easy.
 
Old 12-20-2017, 10:05 PM   #25
ntubski
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cynwulf View Post
Stop complaining about those who like to complain about their init system choice (or lack of therein)...easy.
But the complaints are being forced down my throat! It's hard to read a Linux forum without seeing systemd threads. Nearly all the init system threads are complain-about-systemd threads; soon, people who want to argue about init systems won't have any choice except to argue about systemd.

 
Old 12-20-2017, 10:26 PM   #26
Drakeo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ntubski View Post
But the complaints are being forced down my throat! It's hard to read a Linux forum without seeing systemd threads. Nearly all the init system threads are complain-about-systemd threads; soon, people who want to argue about init systems won't have any choice except to argue about systemd.

It works . I do not use it for my desktop. Do use it for work. every time you say it is wrong you Dev's people that do not under stand script init. make friends and teach.
It starts I look at my kids i am happy. NO MATTER WTF SYSTEM I use. they are the people getting paid to count to "0" if i need "1" so be it .
bend them over smile to the bank for free have fun. And be a Slacker. we got it back.

Last edited by Drakeo; 12-20-2017 at 10:28 PM.
 
Old 12-21-2017, 01:13 AM   #27
patrick295767
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ntubski View Post
But the complaints are being forced down my throat! It's hard to read a Linux forum without seeing systemd threads. Nearly all the init system threads are complain-about-systemd threads; soon, people who want to argue about init systems won't have any choice except to argue about systemd.

There are likely two possibilities:
(1) Linux expert will make their own distro (e.g. Devuan).
(2) Linux novices will say "it works", because they haven't a clue what it does.

Debian development will reject SysVinit for X reasons. Because the Debian development haven't seen half Cons, Devuan was released.

More reading:
Quote:
"We don't execute people just because they are old, and worship people just because they are new" "We shouldn't do so with technology"
(link: https://wiki.debian.org/Debate/initsystem/sysvinit)

As said above, Windows and MacOS work. So, maybe, we shall all use Windows or Mac?
 
Old 12-21-2017, 03:45 AM   #28
jsbjsb001
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Quote:
Originally Posted by patrick295767 View Post
...
As said above, Windows and MacOS work. So, maybe, we shall all use Windows or Mac?
Maybe we should all jump off a cliff too, maybe we should walk on broken glass too...

How is it possible that there will be only Windows or Mac OS left ? ?

The desktop market is about the only one M$ has left, they lost the smartphone one, the supercomputer market is at least 90% Linux of some description, do you want me to go on?

Why don't you just use whatever system you bloody well like and be done with it??

I would still use Linux over Window$ any day of the week mate. Regardless of BS threads like this one or systemd-hater threads in any forums!

(with all respect to members that have replied to this thread)
 
Old 12-25-2017, 06:30 PM   #29
Germany_chris
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I liked systemd when it was rolled out and I like systemd currently I say keep on keeping on until something better comes along.
 
Old 01-07-2018, 11:37 AM   #30
//////
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something i found from googles image search while searching for icons :

https://s10.postimg.org/4el7okcx5/systemd.jpg

took a moment to "get it" lmao
 
  


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