Involving them, yes, but their use should be obvious and I should have been more clear: it would be stupid not to draw on the wealth of documentation and guidelines they have on these topics and it would be a vast waste of time and effort to duplicate that effort if it is already cataloged somewhere. Materials they have cover a wide range of topics and activities which are more or less settled.

As for the writing style of the OP, maybe that's off or maybe it is an accurate representation. Eitherway, now is a good time to remember that you get more flies with honey than with vinager.

@dugan i appreciate the spirited confrontation of my position here

If me bringing the shades down to protect my eyes causes someone to miss their picture window, then yes it is their problem and not mine and they should move their desk, not me. My request comes out of health reasons and theirs is a demand for a luxury.

And if someone then says well what's the matter with you that you need special conditions, how come the person demanding a pretty view from their desk behind huge displays is not asking for special conditions?

I find your stance on this manipulative as if you are really quite motivated to find something wrong with me personally.

And only half of what I'm talking about here is in regards to lighting, the other half is that people who want to stir sh&(§ use this and other things like it as a means to grind their axe.

It is simply subjective and requires a measured consensus to achieve lighting conditions that protect and suit everyone the best we can, and through this discussion and the resulting dynamic we learn a lot about people's attitude towards each other, who is manipulative, who is a bully, who is selfish etc.

There is existing science that says eye strain exists and improper lighting conditions, i.e. contrast, glare, background overbrightness, cause it, and should you deny the existence thereof simply because you don't feel like ddg'ing it, says a lot about you in the way of arbitrary application of principle.

I have bent over backwards to comprimise and put myself in their shoes, people who are absolutely unwilling or have some other grudge going on, such that they seem to not even grasp my position, say a lot about themselves that isn't pretty.

I understand after all how nice it is to sit next to a window, they seem to want to make fun of or disparage me for saying light conditions are a signicant factor in my work conditions at all, or that I should have any say in them.

And so here I have to say, not discussing the issue simply enables bullies and more sh&te corp bs.

This is something to be addressed with HR and/or management. Your employer is (hopefully) aware of their liability re: employee health and their responsibility to provide an ergonomically healthy environment.

An employee where I last worked complained that the overhead lights were too bright. The response was to install sleeves on the fluorescent tubes (think sunglasses) over their cubicle to reduce the brightness. Worked a treat! And happened within the week of the complaint.

Discussion here, or anywhere other than with your managment/HR, is probably not going to be productive, except to get advice as I’ve just given...

Thanks @scasey that is helpful as it provides another data point as to what happens IRL and one that is constructive, demonstrating both sides considering each others needs and adapting intelligently.

There are I think a lot of places however that would have just canned this employee or browbeaten them into hurting themselves against their will.

Sorry, I'm with dugan here. It was suggested before that you go to your boss/HR, and that remains the only salient advice, since it's THEM that is going to have to affect the change.

And not meaning to sound nasty...but all this talk of 'grudges', 'axes to grind', bullying, etc., makes it sound like you have more problems than bright lights. If you're a grown adult, and can't handle such a trivial matter, there isn't anything, anyone can do to help you. If you can't stand up for yourself, and need HR to get the 'bullies' away from you, that's nothing that ANY HR department is ever going to be able to fix. Asking for scientific studies? Come on...this is a totally subjective thing. Some folks like bright lights..some don't; are you going to like it if they come back with more studies than you can find about health benefits of brighter lights?? And since you're so 'sensitive' to light, you must have this problem outdoors....you do realize that those same sunglasses you wear, will also work indoors, right?

Again; either stand up for yourself, sit there and suffer, or pack up and leave. Those are your options.

@tbone fair enough, that's what I'll do. i am somewhat venting here also which may be out of place at LQ. I am a former american so while this current situation is annoying, it is nothing compared to the full scale toxicity I have seen before.

those godless commies in canada(/s) seem to still have the best doc on this:

https://www.ccohs.ca/oshanswers/ergo...iscomfort.html

will close tomorrow if no one one else throws in .02 although I suspect this situation will play itself out several billion times before the year 2100 and may be of use to people of the fuuuuture in their shiny silver suits and whatever genetic modifications needed to live underground after the accumulated interest burden of capitalism convinces the bezos-class to cause armageddon, for the common good or other words they dont understand.

'my assigned vr brain implant gives me such a headache when i stand next to the microwave we use to cook rats for our daily meal' etc.

Then they will find this thread hopefully and see it with new eyes.

Oh, so you've decided that I'm right about your problem being eyestrain?

That's good. Now, what did your doctor say about this "existing science"? Or do you not think an optometrist would be the right person to talk to about dealing with eyestrain?

I noticed his *ahem* "other problems" a couple of days ago and I decided not to point them out. They'll go away after he deals with his eyestrain.

Seriously, though, I've been wondering what mikudo's approach to dealing with his workplace has been so far.

All he had to say to stand up for himself was "Can we not? That level of lighting really bothers me."

If he's been insisting that he has scientific proof that his co-workers aren't humans (as he has done in every post in this thread) to his co-workers, then I can see why his negotiations got nowhere.

@dugan i am disregarding everything you say because you clearly have a bad attitude, as well as a tendency to make arbitrary logical jumps and selectively choose which information you want to see. Good luck with that.

The modern toxic workplace is not easy to navigate, there are hidden rules, hidden power structures, everyone is desparate, and the relationship between company and individual is heavily shrouded and mis-advertised. Everyone is trying to be forced into a hierarchy where someone can outright command you to, for example, change your workspace to someplace that damages your body.

While I can not claim to have always navigated this optimally, most of the time i have had problems are because there is actual deception and manipulation (and other people not doing their jobs all day long) afoot, not unlike the type of style of argumentation that @dugan seems to prefer. He probably does really well in the corporate marketplace, would not be surprised one bit nor am I surprised that he completely misses the point of this thread and seeks to find personal problems with me, although his actual motivations might be interesting to learn someday.

Thanks lq!

* cough

Well...

The above post has certainly proven all my points. And quite a few other people's too (including, I'd imagine, your company and co-workers).

Mikudo, I understood exactly what the point of this thread was. It was "I know there's scientific proof that this problem I have with my work environment, which affects no-one else there, would affect any human. LQ, where may I find that proof?" I answered that directly (I told you the proof doesn't exist), and then I intentionally moved on from it as a favor to you, so that I could refocus on advice that would actually help you.

Mikudo...

You are the only person in your office that's bothered by the lighting. You've said yourself that everyone else wants more lighting. That makes your issues with the lighting, by definition, "personal problems".

Establishing that, starting there, and noting out issues related to them (none of which you've denied, addressed or refuted; you just seem angry that I pointed them out), gives you a start to solving them. Not sure what else you think my "factual motivation" might be.

Don't care. Choosing to, or not to, take advice and listen to reason, is his own responsibility. This thread is, after all, about his problem and not mine.

He can revisit this thread (and what was said in it) later, when he's ready to re-evaluate his reactions. It will still be there.

I mean, seriously, if he responds to "you should go talk to a doctor" with "I'm going to disregard everything you say", it's not actually my problem.

I am not the only person in the office bothered by the lighting, that is exactly the sort of self-serving logical jump that manipulative people use to get their way.

If you havent noticed you do that a lot, maybe you are not as convincing as you think you are?

You should check out that link above to the occupational human services office in canada where people have some rights, that proves unequivocally that desktop lighting is a health concern and not a 'personal' concern. The one you think doesnt exist, maybe you missed the purple hyperlink.

If I burn out my eyes or get headaches I can't quite work as well, which affects any company with values more recent than 1900 or so who dont treat employees as expendable machines.

fwiw my team and I found a good comprimise, I will move to a different window bank and that bank will be allowed to be kept shaded.

This says a lot about the team in that the topic was discussed orderly and fairly and everyone had a say, something that I found very seldom to be the case in the usa.

Will leave open til tomorrow but i will not leave it open further just to bicker with dugan. I appreciate and welcome criticism even if I find dont find the arguments compelling.

Also, I will add that it is a definite pattern I detect that whenever someone makes a specific criticism of a system, that someone always shows up and says that the problem is just with you.

And that person will always direct any attention away from systemic analysis, or any analysis of what is freedom or slavery, true or false, the problem is just you. Just lay down and let people walk all over you, that will solve all your problems. Just ignore the things that you know are real in your head, trust us, see a doctor. All of your points and arguments and evidence are categorically wrong and will never actually be addressed. They pick out two things you said, pull them out of context and reduce everything you are saying to that.

I've seen this all before many many times, a very peculiar pattern indeed....

Again the problem here was with other people, they demand brighter lights and want me to fix their problem by moving desks or burning my retinas out before im 50 so that they won't have to lift a finger, and it was I who bent over backwards to accomodate them and still am, just so they can have a view on a parking lot and some clouds. I can work in a basement without windows and thrive, they would apparently perish from sadness.

I am here to work on a computer display, not look ponderously out of windows or who knows what quality of life checkbox they are trying to fill.

Don't cross an ocean for people who won't jump a puddle for you.

And, of course, don't feed the trolls.

Sorry, OP, but again...I'm with dugan here. You were plain advised at the beginning of this thread to either go to HR, or talk to your co-workers. You keep going on about how 'toxic' things, are, how difficult it is to navigate a workplace, 'hidden rules', etc. In short, you're complaining about having to deal with others, that's all it sounds like.
...and **MAGICALLY**, the 'toxic' workplace with 'hidden rules' vanished when you just asked and acted like a grown adult?? If you're working in the US, I can tell you that playing the victim card (which you seem to have been doing), won't get you far.