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Old 03-29-2021, 02:42 AM   #151
igadoter
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I hear about these covid passports. I think it is wrong. It will be source of criminal activity. I mean fake covid passports. I think to fake such passports will be particularly easy in case of electronic passports. At the end there will be huge black market where anyone can buy such thing. These passports for me are just yet another proof that governments are in panic. They just don't know what to do. Here in Poland we are reaching limits of our health care system. If things will go as now - soon there will be no free beds in hospitals. Already we have serious problem with medical staff. One can't run hospital without nurses.
 
Old 03-29-2021, 06:40 AM   #152
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I think that they are trying to lessen the spread of covid. The more that get covid, the more that die. I don't like heavy handed government either. But. When does government have the authority to stop a pandemic that threatens all of it's citizens, even kills them. This sounds like an actual legitimate function of government. And what do you do about large amounts of citizens who won't cooperate and get a shot that will cause the pandemic to subside. And if they won't get a shot, the pandemic will last longer, killing more people.

I think that western governments know that it would be a disaster to announce that all citizens must get the vaccine by force. I think that you would see government people and medical people shot or assaulted. There would be marches on capitols. And they know this.

So, a vaccine proof would be a way to try and encourage people to do what you want them to do. In fact, that's civilized. That's what we do with countries that don't act the way we want, we tell them that we are not going to trade with you until you change something.

The problem here is that once a government gets a power, they won't let loose of it. China giving good citizen points, or forbidding travel for being a bad citizen.

And then, there are a whole lot of people, that somehow just don't get it, or are stupid, or are so spoiled that they won't think of others, just me me I me I me me I me I me and also me. And that is a whole other topic.

We could sit back and let things take its course, like Europe did in the 13-1400's. The Bubonic plague did eventually go away. Half of Europe died.
 
Old 03-29-2021, 06:57 AM   #153
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A very civilised summary of the situation. The government knows that it couldn't get away with making vaccination compulsory by law (except perhaps for care workers) but it can quietly allow vaccination certificates to become effectively compulsory for using any kind of services provided by the busness community. Because if your local publican won't let you in without a certificate, that's his business, isn't it. It's called free enterprise and has nothing directly to do with the government.

When I got my first shot (I get the second one on Friday), I looked at the card they gave me and said, "Ah!". It's a standard NHS appointment card with two boxes for the vaccinations to be entered and the date for the second shot given as a reminder. I've been given lots of cards like that over the years. But of course, once this one exists, it can be used as a proof of vaccination and demanded by anyone who offers services to the public.

What worries me is that people who refuse to be vaccinated are found disproportionately among ethic minorities, so we could be sleepwalking into a situation where white people can go where they please but black people can't. Just think what the woke millenial crowd will make of that!

Last edited by hazel; 03-29-2021 at 06:58 AM.
 
Old 03-29-2021, 08:01 AM   #154
yancek
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I expect it will happen, the question being how and who will be responsible. Will each state have its own form of 'passport', will there be different 'passports' for travel or use within a state and a different one for international travel or use. That criminal activity will occur in regard to these passports is not a reason not to use them. By that logic, we would stop using national/state ids, passports and credit cards. Massive criminal activity in regard to credit cards in particular.

People who refuse to get vaccinated are in the same category as people who refuse to wear masks and selfishly feel that their rights supersede the rights of other. An example of this in the state where I live, the mask mandate was just lifted and people are going to businesses and demanding they be allowed to enter the business without a mask, thus jeopardizing the health of others. A business owner is and should be allowed to deny access for any legal reason.
 
Old 03-29-2021, 08:31 AM   #155
teckk
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https://www.yahoo.com/now/health-car...012240703.html
 
Old 03-29-2021, 09:36 AM   #156
igadoter
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Of course there is a group of obedient, lawful people who will be very strict with these passports. But if someone can't obey simple stay at home, it won't obey these passports. Those who refused vaccine for reason to not be the second category citizen - of course will fake these passports. Besides it is impossible to create safe, secure system of these passports verification. Just total waste of money - and for sure another source of conflict. And the problem is - governments would have to criminalize faking these passports. So far I hear nothing about such action. I mean law which states that it is illegal to provide false passport. Say person will be prosecuted and what - put in jail? What essentially authorities can do with such person?
 
Old 03-29-2021, 11:11 AM   #157
DavidMcCann
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The local supermarket has a sign in the entrance telling you that if you look too young you may need proof of age for certain products. Publicans are supposed to check the age of some-one who looks too young to buy a drink. So what's the difference between proving your age and proving your vaccination status?

And what's wrong with compulsory vaccination? That's what eliminated smallpox in Britain and many other countries, and many countries still have mandatory vaccinations before school admission.
 
Old 03-29-2021, 11:30 AM   #158
business_kid
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I hope we are not going into a pro-anti vaccine flame war.

Suffice it to say that there are a minority who will with good reason refuse any vaccine and are willing to be disadvantaged for so doing. Compulsory vaccination tramples on their POV and no drug is side effect free. Next poster please change the subject.
 
Old 03-29-2021, 12:46 PM   #159
igadoter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by business_kid View Post
Suffice it to say that there are a minority who will with good reason refuse any vaccine and are willing to be disadvantaged for so doing.
Why do you think it is minority? Officials do not provide information concerning how many people resigned. Next law which pushes citizen to illegal action is evidently wrong. Someone who refuse vaccine is being pushed by these passports to look for fakes. Law which makes people thives, cheaters, disobedient. You are ok with vaccine others not. It is up to you to try to accept this. Why do you think free choice is against vaccination?

Last edited by igadoter; 03-29-2021 at 12:48 PM.
 
Old 03-29-2021, 01:17 PM   #160
teckk
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Quote:
and many countries still have mandatory vaccinations before school admission
Yes I thought of that. Here kids have to show certain vaccinations at certain grades, for public schools. I think that it was, to start school, 5th grade, and 8th as I recall. I would bet that private schools do something similar. They can't force you to get vaccinated, but you can't come to school. And, it is unlawful to not attend school until 16.

There have been some states that have allowed parents to opt out. But there has been an increase in mumps and measles. Those were just about gone by the 1980's. Kids weren't getting those anymore. But not vaccinating has caused a resurgence of those. Mumps, measles, chicken pox can kill kids.

Edit: I'll have to look for the story, until then, I deleted this paragraph.

Let me see if I can find that video in my logs. Or if it is available anymore...

Last edited by teckk; 03-29-2021 at 02:25 PM.
 
Old 03-29-2021, 01:38 PM   #161
teckk
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I can't find the video I was thinking of, I can't recall the name of it. Maybe I will find it later.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonas_Salk
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_Pasteur
 
Old 03-29-2021, 02:22 PM   #162
teckk
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Still can't find the history that I am looking for, but did run across these.

New York 1947
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/18/n...x-vaccine.html

Chickenpox
https://www.outbreakobservatory.org/...-of-chickenpox

Measles
https://www.cdc.gov/measles/about/history.html
https://www.historyofvaccines.org/timeline/measles
 
Old 03-30-2021, 05:25 AM   #163
business_kid
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I really don't want to argue about vaccines, but I really don't see the point of vaccines for everything, except to line the pockets of drug companies. I think they have enough already.

I grew up in the 1950s/60s. I had the BCG as a baby, and a polio vaccine at age 4. Polio was debilitating if you caught it. Before I was 10, I had had Measles, whooping cough, mumps, German measles, chickenpox, and some pretty dangerous fever (Scarlet fever at age 2?), and I got over them all with zero complications or side issues. My family did also, and we were not wealthy, or in any unusually healthy. What's the big deal? If a child can't kick those, his immune system is compromised. I don't think I am alone in my viewpoint. We trained our immune systems to fight back, and have done well. I would take a Covid vaccine, as it's potentially deadly and easily caught, especially so now that I'm disabled.

It may be different in the Excited States, where GM foods, modern farming methods and increased use of chemicals is impoverishing the soil and the food. Even Putin remarked that America poisons it's own people. The first thing every American notices on arrival here is the taste of the foods - tastes that we would take for granted. Grass-fed cows, goats, & sheep are the rule here, not the exception. Even grains are beautiful by comparison. Fish and fruit/veg are fresh.

Last edited by business_kid; 03-30-2021 at 05:30 AM.
 
Old 03-30-2021, 07:54 AM   #164
enorbet
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Enough time has passed that a decent size sampling shows both Pfizer and Moderna mRNA Covid vaccines match up with clinical trials showing 90% effectiveness.

https://www.technologyreview.com/202...eid=017411622d

If that link causes difficulties here it is via TinyURL - https://tinyurl.com/6b38rakd
 
Old 03-30-2021, 08:01 AM   #165
boughtonp
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Quote:
Originally Posted by business_kid View Post
I hope we are not going into a pro-anti vaccine flame war.
...
Next poster please change the subject.
Quote:
Originally Posted by business_kid View Post
I really don't want to argue about vaccines, but ...
Would you like to hear my guaranteed way to reduce both arguments and flame wars...?


Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet View Post
If that link causes difficulties here it is via TinyURL
Why would it cause difficulties? In any case, a better alternative to URL obfuscation is saving it in Wayback Machine:

https://web.archive.org/web/1/https:...eal-world-too/

 
  


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