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Old 06-05-2020, 05:13 PM   #31
Contrapak
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet View Post
You mean cuz they drive on the wrong side of the road?

That and the funny accents.
 
Old 06-05-2020, 08:05 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lady Fitzgerald View Post
The problem is too many opinions being expressed by non-SSA citizens are not based on fact.
What does "SSA" stand for? (the first time I though it was a typo for USA, but now you've written twice, I guess not)
 
Old 06-05-2020, 08:42 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ntubski View Post
What does "SSA" stand for? (the first time I though it was a typo for USA, but now you've written twice, I guess not)
I took it to be , as some adherents to Ayn Randism apparently like to say, Socialist States of America.
 
Old 06-05-2020, 10:27 PM   #34
Lady Fitzgerald
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ntubski View Post
What does "SSA" stand for? (the first time I though it was a typo for USA, but now you've written twice, I guess not)
Quote:
Originally Posted by sp331yi View Post
I took it to be , as some adherents to Ayn Randism apparently like to say, Socialist States of America.
Sigh! People, open your eyes. I mentioned what it stands for in an earlier post and its explained just below my user ID after Location to the left of my posts. Yeesh!
 
Old 06-05-2020, 10:48 PM   #35
sp331yi
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My bad! Guess my age is showing.
 
Old 06-05-2020, 11:37 PM   #36
Lady Fitzgerald
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sp331yi View Post
My bad! Guess my age is showing.
LOL! Wait until you're my age. Everything falls apart! Wanna borrow my trifocals?
 
Old 06-06-2020, 03:09 AM   #37
quickquestion111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet View Post
It also has to do with the lack of psyche profiling COMBINED with the fact that large percentages of the police force are ex-military. There are major differences in the training for dealing with external threats and simply maintaining a peaceful society.. The military by need and design are, make no mistake, trained killers. They don't need to know International Law, only military law. The militarization of the police force exists in more ways than one, some needed, some extremely dangerous. We need to weed out the latter. Many such officers think they ARE the Law, literally judge, jury and executioner. That cannot stand long.
Just because they are trained to kill (during their 4-6 months of boot camp) doesn't make them trained killers (in the same fashion that having a system administer certificate doesn't actually make you a system administrator). During peace time, most people who enlist don't even get to see any sort of conflict. So I wouldn't go as so far to even call them warriors unless they actually served in combat.

I'd agree with you though if you were talking higher up on the food chain; such as Navy Seals who are people with the singular goal in mind of wanting to become a professional warrior. Most people enlisting however don't go that route, in fact most people joining don't even go for a combat related MOS (for alot that's the last thing they want); some are striving for cyber related MOSs, aircraft mechanics, and some are just joining for the college benefits.

So your argument of the police being overly aggressive due to alot of them being ex-military (and thus "trained killers"), is just not true. A person with a military experience speaks, amongst other things, to your determination, teamwork, goal-oriented NESS, and your understanding of systems and procedures. There are a number of major international corporations in which the senior ranks are heavily tilted toward men and women with a military background.

With that said, i'll re-iterate that it has to do with the letter of the law in how the police are able to operate. And of course it also has to do with the leadership at the top. Good leadership will prosper healthy police culture, where officers dont walk around with a "respect my authority" attitude.

They should know:

1) They work for us.

2) Their there to protect and serve.

3) With great power comes great responsibility.


Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet
IMHO the single, most important, underlying fundamental is the Law itself. When government passes unreasonable, unrealistic laws
Those silly laws are the result of some numskull doing something stupid and ruining it for everyone else. But you're right in pointing out how the governement is foolish enough in enacting them. But as Thomas Jefferson said: "The government you elect is the government you deserve." And I believe most of the riots are happening in blue states (correct me if im wrong).

Last edited by quickquestion111; 06-06-2020 at 04:48 AM.
 
Old 06-06-2020, 03:11 AM   #38
quickquestion111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Turbocapitalist View Post
Actually the full expression is that one bad apple spoils the barrel. That is what is happening, the whole institution is called into disrepute by their continued, unjailed presence. So, yeah, they really do need to be seen as representative of their organization. The push for reform needs to come from outside of that institution, because for more than a few work generations, there has been active selection against the best applicants.
In regards to the events happening today, the logic of that expression insinuates that all police are racist due to actions of a few bad cops, which is just not true. So the expression (while sounding wise) is a fallacy, for the simple fact that most cops are not actually racist. You have the names/faces of the individuals who perpetuated the crime, so what sense does it make to keep attacking the rest of the police? It's because people induced with rage are unable to look at the situation at hand objectively, and so resort to casting blame on the institutions as a whole, completely forgetting the fact that those institutions are made up of just people, like you me.

To your point of the attacks being justified due to the delayed prosecution of the police officer that murdered George Floyd. I'd like to point out that whether or not the riots accelerated the process of indictment for the cop, is irrelevant. There are legal avenues in place in which you can change the letter of the law so that a police officer doesn't have certain legal protections in which they do (such as needing to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that they intended to kill said person; similar to why it's very hard to sue the media for slander). You can also get around that by requiring all police to where bod cams. But they chose the path/to/violence instead, and that is #unacceptable...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Turbocapitalist View Post
there has been active selection against the best applicants
This is only the case when talking about the leadership roles at the top, whom in a lot of cases are chosen based on their politics. FWIW Minnesota is a
blue state. Take that for what you will.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Turbocapitalist
There are several factors at play and more than a few groups working hard to confuse and obfuscate the issues. The factors are racism, class war, and police brutality.
.
Yeah the left wing media, and no those are not the factors IMHO. Well police brutality yes, but again that has to do with the legal bounds in which the police are able to operate, as I mentioned earlier. The class war one is laughable, the U.S. is not some 3rd world country wheres there's a line dividing the rich and poor (we have a middle class).

Last edited by quickquestion111; 06-06-2020 at 04:21 AM.
 
Old 06-06-2020, 04:55 AM   #39
quickquestion111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidMcCann View Post
The real problem as I understand it is the lack of regulation and supervision in the US compared with the UK.
  • Here the police are inspected annually by a national Inspectorate; there they aren't.
  • Here any death involving the police is investigated by the Independent Police Complaints Commission; there the police investigates themselves.
  • Here the decision to prosecute is taken by the Crown Prosecution Service; there it's the DA, who's basically a politician.
  • Here the police have no union, any more than soldiers do; there the unions sometimes do everything possible to protect officers from the consequences of their actions.
Yeah there's seems to be alot of checks and balances there, which I think here in the U.S. we can borrow from. Unions in particular are a big problem. Don't agree with disarming the police though (or the people), the 2nd amendment is there for a reason, but that's another thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lady Fitzgerald View Post
The problem is less with the the bad law itself than the actual problem: a top heavy Government due to being fractured into too many independent jurisdictions, each having their own laws, etc., instead of one united Government. That is the reason I do not call this country the USA and, instead, call it the SSA (Squabbling States of America); we have never been truly united.
So your solution is big government? And we are united when we need to be.

Last edited by quickquestion111; 06-06-2020 at 05:13 AM.
 
Old 06-06-2020, 05:38 AM   #40
ondoho
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The Separation of Power - a fundemental part of modern democracy - has effectively been dismantled in the USA after 9/11. That's when they added some extra ultimate executive power for the potus (I just can't bring myself to capitalise that) and never removed it again.
I think every "problem" the USA have nowadays can ultimately be led back to this.
 
Old 06-06-2020, 05:55 AM   #41
enorbet
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quickquestion111 View Post
Just because they are trained to kill (during their 4-6 months of boot camp) doesn't make them trained killers (in the same fashion that having a system administer certificate doesn't actually make you a system administrator). During peace time, most people who enlist don't even get to see any sort of conflict. So I wouldn't go as so far to even call them warriors unless they actually served in combat.

I'd agree with you though if you were talking higher up on the food chain; such as Navy Seals who are people with the singular goal in mind of wanting to become a professional warrior. Most people enlisting however don't go that route, in fact most people joining don't even go for a combat related MOS (for alot that's the last thing they want); some are striving for cyber related MOSs, aircraft mechanics, and some are just joining for the college benefits.

So your argument of the police being overly aggressive due to alot of them being ex-military (and thus "trained killers"), is just not true. A person with a military experience speaks, amongst other things, to your determination, teamwork, goal-oriented NESS, and your understanding of systems and procedures. There are a number of major international corporations in which the senior ranks are heavily tilted toward men and women with a military background.

With that said, i'll re-iterate that it has to do with the letter of the law in how the police are able to operate. And of course it also has to do with the leadership at the top. Good leadership will prosper healthy police culture, where officers dont walk around with a "respect my authority" attitude.

They should know:

1) They work for us.

2) Their there to protect and serve.

3) With great power comes great responsibility.



Those silly laws are the result of some numskull doing something stupid and ruining it for everyone else. But you're right in pointing out how the governement is foolish enough in enacting them. But as Thomas Jefferson said: "The government you elect is the government you deserve." And I believe most of the riots are happening in blue states (correct me if im wrong).
I don't want to belabor the point, especially when it drifts into semantics, but there is a change in mindset that comes about from accepting the terms of pointedly studying the most effective ways of killing another human being. I figured someone would take offense at a stark but truthful term but I didn't mean it as a pejorative. As long as there is deadly conflict someone must be trained to kill. It's just often problematic when some of those individuals take a somewhat similar, armed and uniformed, job of "protect and serve" that can look like "Us vs/ Them" and even that morphs from just citizens as perpetrators to include lawyers, judges and government itself to become a complete and arbitrary isolation.

There are numerous laws that have nothing to do with "some numskull (sic) ruining it for everyone else" if what you mean is someone actually committing a dangerous, offensive act. Many laws come about because lawmakers view themselves as The Upper Crust and anyone lower in social stature as animals and children that must be controlled and curtailed. Some of these laws may even seem funny now and there are lots of websites, even books, about the subject like this one

http://justsomething.co/the-22-most-...ffect-today-2/

but the effect is insidious and dangerous sometimes in the extreme. There wasn't such a term as "pornography" until "Lords and Ladies" decided that while they were impervious to the effects of erotica, those animals in the hovels might rape our women if they saw a bare ankle. All drug laws, in itself a private and innocuous behavior, came about with a huge helping of class and race fear and hatred. In such legislation of victimless private "morality" the long term effects of such laws are far worse than the acts. One only has to read the history of US Prohibition to see this actually plays out this way by nature, despite any well-meaning motivation in the best case, and fear and hatred in the worse.

I've actually heard more than one police official state (paraphrased) "A white male running down the street is a jogger. A black male running down the street is fleeing a crime". That's what happens when The Law is NOT a level playing field and the entire Justice system plays favorites. Wealth, power, position and privilege all go together, unless actually just and equal, and create conflict, often deadly conflict, not to mention a deep distrust in the Law itself that permeates all of society. Yes it is improved from medieval times when not only lords and ladies, but even clergy, were allowed legally to murder a few peasants every year for "talking back" or not moving out of the way on a muddy thoroughfare, but it hasn't improved enough in those thousand years to be consistent with the principles of democratic society... yet they linger on.

Last edited by enorbet; 06-06-2020 at 05:57 AM.
 
Old 06-06-2020, 07:56 AM   #42
michaelk
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Quote:
And I believe most of the riots are happening in blue states (correct me if im wrong).
Riots or protests? Protests are happening in all 50 states and in general most are peaceful from what I can tell.

Quote:
The class war one is laughable, the U.S. is not some 3rd world country wheres there's a line dividing the rich and poor (we have a middle class).
Not really, but it depends on your perspective I suppose. Polls have indicated that more then half of Americans do not feel the rich pay enough taxes. The rich are getting richer, the poor poorer and the middle class is shrinking. Many believe the US is an oligarchy in nature.
 
Old 06-06-2020, 08:50 AM   #43
DavidMcCann
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Quote:
Originally Posted by michaelk View Post
Many believe the US is an oligarchy in nature.
This is an interesting evaluation, which will of course be dismissed by many as not produced in the USA!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index
The USA gets rated as a "flawed democracy", along with Mexico and South Africa.
 
Old 06-06-2020, 09:15 AM   #44
teckk
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Quote:
1) They work for us.

2) Their there to protect and serve.

3) With great power comes great responsibility.
Nope, we are the masters and you will obey us. We are the government and we are in charge. If you disobey us, we will show you who is in charge. (power mad)

Quote:
The Separation of Power - a fundemental part of modern democracy - has effectively been dismantled in the USA after 9/11
This, and starting way before 911.

Searches without warrants or probable cause. Seizing peoples property and selling it, keeping the money. Preferring one race/group/sex of people over other groups causing contention between the groups, courts acting like a super legislature enacting laws, telling congress what they will and will not do, taking money from some of its citizens and giving to other citizens, ignoring as much as 150 years of president and changing whatever they desire to. Seizing citizens children whenever they wish, overturning referendums and elections, Now that is imagined power folks.

Where are you US congress? Where is your over site roll? You have authority to impeach and remove federal judges from the bench.

People keep hitting this from the race angle. There is some racism for sure.

I ask the question before. What would make that policeman look into the cameras and continue to cut the blood supply off to that mans brain, for the purpose of making him pass out and therefore controlling him, administering punishment right at the scene? Where did he get the idea that he could do that with impunity? From his police dept of course. And where did that police dept get the idea from that they could do that?

A fellow citizen, not convicted of anything in a court of law by a jury of his peers. And therefore presumed to be an innocent citizen, unless or until a court of law pronounces guilt.

I think that some are missing the foundation of the problem. Government out of control, forcing its will in areas that it has no lawful authority to control, and been allowed to get away with it for decades, they are very much emboldened. You are going to have a huge fight now getting them back within their constitutional parameters of authority.

And we "wacko right wingers" have said this for decades, and some of you said that we were just anti government malcontents that just had a problem with authority.

Uh no, we had a love for freedom and justice.
 
Old 06-06-2020, 09:48 AM   #45
Lady Fitzgerald
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quickquestion111 View Post
...So your solution is big government? And we are united when we need to be.
For crying out loud; can't you read? Did you miss the part where I said our Government is top heavy? Eliminating all the separate, semi-independent governmental jurisdictions--State (or Commonwealth; not all "States" are States), Counties (or Parishes), Cities, and even divisions in cities--and having just one government with one set of laws would dramatically reduce the amount of Government and division in the SSA.

You are insane or incredibly ignorant if you think the SSA is united when we need to be. We are in the middle of an unprecedented crisis--the Covid-19--pandemic--yet our various governmental jurisdictions, from our "Idiot in Chief" on down, cannot agree how to properly deal with it. Along with the lack of unity amongst various governmental leaders, we have masses of people too selfish and/or ignorant follow guidelines designed to reduce the spread of the virus, completely ignoring the most basic requirements, such as social distancing, wearing face masks, etc. We have the selfish who were obscenely hoarding necessities, often trying to profit off the shortages they created, not caring about others. That's being united?

Now we have the morons that are out demonstrating in massive, tightly packed crowds, exposing themselves to the virus and spreading it to others. Many of those "demonstrators" have been vandalizing and looting the property of often innocent people, businesses, and public property (this is helping their cause how?) Some State leaders are continuing to act in the best interest of their constituents; others are caving-in to the irresponsibility and ignorance of our Idiot in Chief (often mostly for political gain). We have a Congress that has been pretty much deadlock due a lack of unity due to two major political parties with policies on the extreme right or left and are following their political party, not representing the will of their constituents.

We have laws that often vary dramatically from jurisdiction; what's legal in one is illegal in another. Even enforcement of those laws is not consistent. Civil rights vary from jurisdiction to jurisdiction and are often unequally based on "race" or culture, religion, sex, sexual orientation and gender identity, social and economic status, politics, etc. Our civil rights were further eroded dramatically with the Patriot Act (what a misnomer!) after the terrorist attacks on 9/11/2001.

This country has never been united. The Articles of Confederation and the Constitution that replaced the Articles were weak compromises that were employed because the original 13 colonies couldn't agree on much of anything and were too childishly selfish to give up their autonomy in order to unite into one strong nation with one Government instead of the fragmented mess we have now.
 
  


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