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Old 06-04-2020, 11:05 AM   #16
enorbet
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IMHO the single, most important, underlying fundamental is the Law itself. When government passes unreasonable, unrealistic laws many will disregard them just to be able to live in a world that makes some kind of sense, and all will find the Law confusing and inconsistent. This isn't just in the US. This is every and any where.

Example: If you're driving and the curve speed sign says 30mph and at 35 you feel like you and the car could easily get out of control, you will heed that State's/Nation's signs as helpful guidance. If you take it at 50 and barely feel the car lean, it's likely you won't bother to even read them except as a bad joke. I've seen how this can change as a college student working my way through as a Traffic Engineering aide. Sign reasonably and consistently, 85 - 90% of people obey and things run smoothly. Put up a lot of knee jerk, feel good restrictions and useless "information" signs and people will revert to how ever much in a hurry they are at the moment.

Another example I saw growing up way back in the day (the 50s) when, for example, the Catholic church, strongly demanded "only eat fish on Friday" or "don't use anything but 'the rhythm method'" for birth control. It should be obvious how unrealistic such practice was and how many disregarded such "law" since nobody even thinks like that anymore.
 
Old 06-04-2020, 11:28 AM   #17
Steve R.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet View Post
IMHO the single, most important, underlying fundamental is the Law itself. When government passes unreasonable, unrealistic laws many will disregard them just to be able to live in a world that makes some kind of sense, and all will find the Law confusing and inconsistent. This isn't just in the US. This is every and any where.
As follow-up. Some governors (concerning COVID-19 restrictions) in the US have basically endorsed the public getting out and protesting as a freedom of speech right, but then when it comes to certain businesses or other activities (visiting the beach) you will be designated a pariah and will be subject to arrest as a danger to the health of society. It unfortunate that these political leaders are making decisions based on politics and not science (despite their earlier claims in March and April that these strict restrictions were necessary to protect human health and were based on science).

As a concluding thought. Bail restrictions in several communities in the US have been reduced, essentially allowing the immediate release of a person arrested without having to post bail. In terms of those arrested for rioting and vandalism, it may allow for their immediate release. That would seem to have the appearance of allowing those committing rioting and vandalism offences to continue unabated without any real legal repercussions. (In fact, some Hollywood celebrities have offered to post bail for those arrested, but it is unclear if they differentiate between those peaceably protesting from those fomenting violence.)

Last edited by Steve R.; 06-04-2020 at 11:32 AM.
 
Old 06-04-2020, 12:04 PM   #18
Lady Fitzgerald
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Originally Posted by DavidMcCann View Post
Disarming the police only works if the public are disarmed. Police in the UK know that very few criminals carry guns in the USA being an unarmed officer would be the quickest route to an early grave.

But there's more to it than guns. There are batons, fists, and knees. There have been several cases of journalists and even paramedics being attacked. That's what I'd call a police riot.

The real problem as I understand it is the lack of regulation and supervision in the US compared with the UK.
  • Here the police are inspected annually by a national Inspectorate; there they aren't.
  • Here any death involving the police is investigated by the Independent Police Complaints Commission; there the police investigates themselves.
  • Here the decision to prosecute is taken by the Crown Prosecution Service; there it's the DA, who's basically a politician.
  • Here the police have no union, any more than soldiers do; there the unions sometimes do everything possible to protect officers from the consequences of their actions.
And here we have another "expert" who thinks they know all about us. You aren't even close to the actual underlying problems. I would go into more detail but it would take a book to even start to explain it.
 
Old 06-04-2020, 01:46 PM   #19
FredGSanford
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All police departments across the country needs to re-evaluate their officers. They need to weed out all the so-called bad officers who have numerous complaints against them. And some have lots of complaints!
 
Old 06-04-2020, 01:55 PM   #20
teckk
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I just "love" it when someone who is not from the U.S.
I am from the US. And I have watched our police and governments for 40 or so years. I am qualified to speak about it. Or at least what I have witnessed with my own eyes.

Quote:
The problems going on here are far more complex than just alleged police racism and violence
I agree with you. When you let government officials and the courts themselves get away with breaking the law for decades, even to the point where the courts imagine that they have lawful authority to make laws, then they are emboldened to do what they want to. Even to the point of voiding referendums. Telling people that you did not vote right.

Where does the US "government" gets its authority to tell you how you will raise you children? Where do they get the authority to take your kids if they see you spank him? They are doing it.

Where did they get the authority to pull a drug dealer over, arrest him, and then seize his car and sell it, and keep the money?

If they catch you with 10-12,000 dollar in cash at your house. They will seize it, and it may take years if ever to get it back. No proof that you did any wrong. (Rico statutes) Where on earth did they get the authority to do that?

Where did the Supreme Court gets its authority to be the final arbiter of the law from? Certainly not from Article 3.

When you hear somebody say that the Supreme Court made something the law of the land. How did they do that? The courts have no authority to make law. That's the legislative and executives branches function.

Tell me something. Homosexual marriage had never ever existed in the history of the US. So that would require a new law to make that happen. Where did the Supreme court get the lawful authority to up and declare that as a law?

I agree, these government authorities are way out of control. Have been for decades. And when the citizenry let them do whatever they want to, unlawfully, just because it happens to be something they like at the time, it is a disaster for freedom and liberty.

You suppose that might be part of the reason that police just do whatever they want to?

I don't think that the police are bad, I think that government is bad.

Last edited by teckk; 06-04-2020 at 01:59 PM.
 
Old 06-04-2020, 03:42 PM   #21
Lady Fitzgerald
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Originally Posted by teckk View Post
I am from the US. And I have watched our police and governments for 40 or so years. I am qualified to speak about it. Or at least what I have witnessed with my own eyes.


I agree with you. When you let government officials and the courts themselves get away with breaking the law for decades, even to the point where the courts imagine that they have lawful authority to make laws, then they are emboldened to do what they want to. Even to the point of voiding referendums. Telling people that you did not vote right.

Where does the US "government" gets its authority to tell you how you will raise you children? Where do they get the authority to take your kids if they see you spank him? They are doing it.

Where did they get the authority to pull a drug dealer over, arrest him, and then seize his car and sell it, and keep the money?

If they catch you with 10-12,000 dollar in cash at your house. They will seize it, and it may take years if ever to get it back. No proof that you did any wrong. (Rico statutes) Where on earth did they get the authority to do that?

Where did the Supreme Court gets its authority to be the final arbiter of the law from? Certainly not from Article 3.

When you hear somebody say that the Supreme Court made something the law of the land. How did they do that? The courts have no authority to make law. That's the legislative and executives branches function.

Tell me something. Homosexual marriage had never ever existed in the history of the US. So that would require a new law to make that happen. Where did the Supreme court get the lawful authority to up and declare that as a law?

I agree, these government authorities are way out of control. Have been for decades. And when the citizenry let them do whatever they want to, unlawfully, just because it happens to be something they like at the time, it is a disaster for freedom and liberty.

You suppose that might be part of the reason that police just do whatever they want to?

I don't think that the police are bad, I think that government is bad.
It would help if you would put the country you live in into your Personal LQ. You sounded like someone from another country who doesn't understand how our Government works. You still don't understand how our Government works.

First, only the Legislative branch can make laws, not the Executive branch. The Executive branch can approve or veto new laws made by the Legislative branch but, in the case of a veto, the Legislative can override the veto. The Executive branch can make Executive Decisions to cover situations not covered by law but, until the decision is made in to law by the Legislative branch, it does not carry the permanence of law and can easily be overturned by the successor of the executive who made the ruling or declared unconstitutional by the Judicial branch.

The Judicial branch does not make laws nor has it ever. It clarifies gray areas of laws and/or rules on the constitutionally of laws. In the case of same sex marriage decision, SCOTUS did not make a law allowing same sex marriage. Instead, it overturned laws and Constitutional amendments that directly and/or indirectly prohibited same sex marriage for violating the Due Process Clause and Equal Protection Clause of the 14th Amendment of the U.S. Constitution.

Btw, Artical 3 definitely does give SCOTUS its authority to be the final arbiter of the law. if you can't understand that, then you need to go back to school and retake U.S. Government. In fact, you need to go back to school anyway because you don't understand jack about your own Country's Government and History. While you are at it, take U.S. Social Studies.

I agree there are serious problems with present laws, such as the civil forfeiture you mentioned but you are only seeing the surface of the problem. That one is slowly being fought out in the courts (with most cases overturning it). The problem is less with the the bad law itself than the actual problem: a top heavy Government due to being fractured into too many independent jurisdictions, each having their own laws, etc., instead of one united Government. That is the reason I do not call this country the USA and, instead, call it the SSA (Squabbling States of America); we have never been truly united.

Also, keep in mind the reason there are so many bad actors in Government is the people elected them.

What you and many others here are seeing is only the tip of the iceberg and not the entire body of the actual problems plaguing the SSA.
 
Old 06-04-2020, 04:28 PM   #22
sp331yi
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"We are witnessing the consequences of three years without mature leadership. Gen. James Mattis
 
Old 06-04-2020, 05:35 PM   #23
rokytnji
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Never mind

Last edited by rokytnji; 06-04-2020 at 06:11 PM. Reason: Personal
 
Old 06-04-2020, 07:17 PM   #24
Lady Fitzgerald
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Originally Posted by sp331yi View Post
"We are witnessing the consequences of three years without mature leadership. Gen. James Mattis
It goes far deeper than that but it's the lack of mature leadership that has made the problems apparent.
 
Old 06-05-2020, 11:01 AM   #25
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I just "love" it when someone who is not from the U.S. thinks they know all about us! Everything you (and many others) have said here is unbelievably wrong and narrow minded!
Agreed. It's quite easy to spot the non-Americans.
 
Old 06-05-2020, 11:05 AM   #26
enorbet
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Originally Posted by Contrapak View Post
Agreed. It's quite easy to spot the non-Americans.
You mean cuz they drive on the wrong side of the road?
 
Old 06-05-2020, 11:16 AM   #27
DavidMcCann
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lady Fitzgerald View Post
And here we have another "expert" who thinks they know all about us. You aren't even close to the actual underlying problems. I would go into more detail but it would take a book to even start to explain it.
No, I don't claim to know all about you, but what I've seen of the USA over the course of a life-time I do not care for, to put it mildly. If people make posts about the USA in an international forum, then they can't complain if the rest of us offer our opinions.
 
Old 06-05-2020, 12:13 PM   #28
Lady Fitzgerald
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Originally Posted by DavidMcCann View Post
No, I don't claim to know all about you, but what I've seen of the USA over the course of a life-time I do not care for, to put it mildly. If people make posts about the USA in an international forum, then they can't complain if the rest of us offer our opinions.
And I suppose you wouldn't be upset if I started making comments inaccurately criticizing England? Believe me, I easily could if I was arrogant enough. The problem is too many opinions being expressed by non-SSA citizens are not based on fact.

Last edited by Lady Fitzgerald; 06-05-2020 at 12:16 PM.
 
Old 06-05-2020, 12:27 PM   #29
sp331yi
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@Lady_Fitzgerald --
Quote:
The problem is too many opinions being expressed by non-SSA citizens are not based on fact.
(We're not Socialist, yet!) . . . and, too, many opinions expressed by U.S. citizens are not based in fact.

Yes, it does go much deeper, but I learned long ago that if a person quotes one of their own, they can't say a thing!
May all of US enjoy the this weekend!

Last edited by sp331yi; 06-05-2020 at 08:40 PM. Reason: typo
 
Old 06-05-2020, 01:40 PM   #30
Geist
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Agreed. It's quite easy to spot the non-Americans.
Yeah. I, for example, am genetically German (for the most parts anyway).
Not 'white'.
(And on the topic of 'race' I would find that important)

But in America I could speak for everyone else under that moniker.
Meanwhile, in reallife, things are so grained that you get Hatfield vs McCoy.

To me, that's a bit ...not good to have.

Last edited by Geist; 06-05-2020 at 01:56 PM.
 
  


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