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Old 07-03-2011, 04:35 AM   #46
H_TeXMeX_H
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brianL View Post
The only thing wrong with some people from the UK is that they want to be like Americans. Most of us aren't "owned". We don't stand with our hands on our hearts every time we hear the national anthem. We don't pledge allegiance to the flag. Our only fault is that we let our governments follow the US government like sheep, because of some imaginary "special relationship".
Trust me, even the US gubmint follows someone ...
 
Old 07-03-2011, 04:35 AM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dogs View Post
Question -- What's up with people from the UK? Stockholm syndrome much? or is it jealousy?
"Waahhh, my owner won't let me defend myself or have an ounce of independence, thus anyone who has such things sucks, and I shall say so whenever I get the opportunity (because it makes me feel better about being owned.. after all... everyone belongs to somebody.... right?)"

Seriously, though.. If you can't handle the responsibility of keeping yourself and your family sustained and stable, then don't reproduce, don't speak of your beliefs, and don't associate with others. Doing these things propagates undesirable mental disorders which promote the collapse of civilizations.
We are perfectly entitled to defend ourselves. If someone comes into my house armed when I'm asleep and I batter him to death with a bat, it's very likely I will face no consequences. Why are you turning into some fundamental defect? I don't need a firearm as I don't live in a culture where guns are endemic to it.

I guess being "owned" also covers the repression we face when we have high quality free health care forced upon us... Oh the inhumanity.

---------- Post added 03-07-11 at 10:36 AM ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by H_TeXMeX_H View Post
Trust me, even the US gubmint follows someone ...
The Osmonds?
 
Old 07-03-2011, 06:22 AM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by acid_kewpie View Post
We are perfectly entitled to defend ourselves. If someone comes into my house armed when I'm asleep and I batter him to death with a bat, it's very likely I will face no consequences. Why are you turning into some fundamental defect? I don't need a firearm as I don't live in a culture where guns are endemic to it.
Bat is less efficient and require space to operate - doesn't work well in corridors, unlike guns, and there's distance limit. Depending on your country, you can be put imprisoned for killing armed robber (AFAIK this may happen in USA as well, UK has a "reasonable force" concept, which seems to be quite complicated).

An ideally safe approach is to immobilize the robber without harming him in any way and hand him over to police, or to scare him away. However, this may be quite difficult.

Last edited by SigTerm; 07-03-2011 at 06:23 AM.
 
Old 07-03-2011, 06:50 AM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SigTerm View Post
UK has a "reasonable force" concept, which seems to be quite complicated).
I think they're discussing that issue now in parliament, simplifying it. "Reasonable force" has always sounded like a daft idea to me. I'm supposed to tell the intruder to wait while I work out what would be reasonable? "Please don't attack me yet, Mr Burglar, I'm still trying to decide what to use on you: fists and feet, bat, or knife?"
 
Old 07-03-2011, 07:05 AM   #50
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In the US and sane countries you can kill any intruder on your property. In fact in the US you better, because if you just injure them, they will sue you and win.
 
Old 07-03-2011, 07:21 AM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by H_TeXMeX_H View Post
In the US and sane countries you can kill any intruder on your property.
You can over here, but you'll probably go on trial and the it depends on the judge, etc, whether you're let off or not. It's all a bit vague, and like I said, they're trying to clarify everything so people know exactly where they stand. Handguns are banned over here, except for criminals of course, so if you shot an intruder with one - you would be in the shit. Shotgun would be OK, maybe (but you might have to redecorate afterwards).

Last edited by brianL; 07-03-2011 at 07:23 AM.
 
Old 07-03-2011, 08:24 AM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SigTerm
An ideally safe approach is to immobilize the robber without harming him in any way and hand him over to police, or to scare him away. However, this may be quite difficult.
No, its not difficult at all. Get a dog. Someone tried to break into my house a couple years ago, and fled when they heard 30lbs of pissed off, snarling Terrier coming their way. A dog works much, much better than a gun in my opinion.
 
Old 07-03-2011, 08:27 AM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hangdog42 View Post
A dog works much, much better than a gun in my opinion.
And there are far less deadly "accidents" with dogs.
 
Old 07-03-2011, 08:49 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by TobiSGD View Post
And there are far less deadly "accidents" with dogs.
Are you sure about that ? Because there are plenty of lethal dog attacks.

Also see:
http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=217602
 
Old 07-03-2011, 08:54 AM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hangdog42 View Post
[...]Get a dog.[...]
I like that option where possible. In my case it's a 50 lb. Australian Shepherd. I believe most burglaries still occur during daylight when most people are at work but with a huge "baby boomer" class retiring and the economy tanking that is likely to change.
 
Old 07-03-2011, 09:02 AM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by H_TeXMeX_H View Post
Are you sure about that ? Because there are plenty of lethal dog attacks.

Also see:
http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=217602
Yes, I am pretty sure about that. In 2007 (I don't have newer information) 122 children in the US died from gun accidents. And that are only the children. I don't think that so many people are killed by dogs.

And I think that a burglar sues a home-owner for being injured while doing illegal things is only possible in the US, I have never seen something like that in Germany.
 
Old 07-03-2011, 09:04 AM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by H_TeXMeX_H View Post
In the US and sane countries you can kill any intruder on your property. In fact in the US you better, because if you just injure them, they will sue you and win.
A right to use lethal force to self defense is not the same thing as the right to kill any intruder on your property. Being allowed to defend yourself is reasonable, but I'm not sure about "being allowed to kill any intruder".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hangdog42 View Post
No, its not difficult at all. Get a dog. Someone tried to break into my house a couple years ago, and fled when they heard 30lbs of pissed off, snarling Terrier coming their way. A dog works much, much better than a gun in my opinion.
IMO, dog is much more expensive and less reliable. Training, taking it to walk, food, vet bills, etc. If you got a good guard dog, that's good for you, but if it grows up to be cowardly, then it won't be that helpful. That reminds me:
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeromeKJerome
"A great many burglaries had lately taken place in our neighbourhood," he began, "and the pater came to the conclusion that it was time he laid down a dog. He thought a bull-dog would be the best for his purpose, and he purchased the most savage and murderous-looking specimen that he could find.

"My mother was alarmed when she saw the dog. 'Surely you're not going to let that brute loose about the house!' she exclaimed. 'He'll kill somebody. I can see it in his face.'

"'I want him to kill somebody,' replied my father; 'I want him to kill burglars.'

"'I don't like to hear you talk like that, Thomas,' answered the mater; 'it's not like you. We've a right to protect our property, but we've no right to take a fellow human creature's life.'

"'Our fellow human creatures will be all right--so long as they don't come into our kitchen when they've no business there,' retorted my father, somewhat testily. 'I'm going to fix up this dog in the scullery, and if a burglar comes fooling around--well, that's _his_ affair.'

"The old folks quarrelled on and off for about a month over this dog. The dad thought the mater absurdly sentimental, and the mater thought the dad unnecessarily vindictive. Meanwhile the dog grew more ferocious-looking every day.

"One night my mother woke my father up with: 'Thomas, there's a burglar downstairs, I'm positive. I distinctly heard the kitchen door open.'

"'Oh, well, the dog's got him by now, then,' murmured my father, who had heard nothing, and was sleepy.

"'Thomas,' replied my mother severely, 'I'm not going to lie here while a fellow-creature is being murdered by a savage beast. If you won't go down and save that man's life, I will.'

"'Oh, bother,' said my father, preparing to get up. 'You're always fancying you hear noises. I believe that's all you women come to bed for--to sit up and listen for burglars.' Just to satisfy her, however, he pulled on his trousers and socks, and went down.

"Well, sure enough, my mother was right, this time. There _was_ a burglar in the house. The pantry window stood open, and a light was shining in the kitchen. My father crept softly forward, and peeped through the partly open door. There sat the burglar, eating cold beef and pickles, and there, beside him, on the floor, gazing up into his face with a blood-curdling smile of affection, sat that idiot of a dog, wagging his tail.

"My father was so taken aback that he forgot to keep silent.

"'Well, I'm--,' and he used a word that I should not care to repeat to you fellows.

"The burglar, hearing him, made a dash, and got clear off by the window; and the dog seemed vexed with my father for having driven him away.

"Next morning we took the dog back to the trainer from whom we had bought it.

"'What do you think I wanted this dog for?' asked my father, trying to speak calmly.

"'Well,' replied the trainer, 'you said you wanted a good house dog.'

"'Exactly so,' answered the dad. 'I didn't ask for a burglar's companion, did I? I didn't say I wanted a dog who'd chum on with a burglar the first time he ever came to the house, and sit with him while he had supper, in case he might feel lonesome, did I?' And my father recounted the incidents of the previous night.

"The man agreed that there was cause for complaint. 'I'll tell you what it is, sir,' he said. 'It was my boy Jim as trained this 'ere dawg, and I guess the young beggar's taught 'im more about tackling rats than burglars. You leave 'im with me for a week, sir; I'll put that all right.'

"We did so, and at the end of the time the trainer brought him back again.

"'You'll find 'im game enough now, sir,' said the man. ''E ain't what I call an intellectual dawg, but I think I've knocked the right idea into 'im.'

"My father thought he'd like to test the matter, so we hired a man for a shilling to break in through the kitchen window while the trainer held the dog by a chain. The dog remained perfectly quiet until the man was fairly inside. Then he made one savage spring at him, and if the chain had not been stout the fellow would have earned his shilling dearly.

"The dad was satisfied now that he could go to bed in peace; and the mater's alarm for the safety of the local burglars was proportionately increased.

"Months passed uneventfully by, and then another burglar sampled our house. This time there could be no doubt that the dog was doing something for his living. The din in the basement was terrific. The house shook with the concussion of falling bodies.

"My father snatched up his revolver and rushed downstairs, and I followed him. The kitchen was in confusion. Tables and chairs were overturned, and on the floor lay a man gurgling for help. The dog was standing over him, choking him.

"The pater held his revolver to the man's ear, while I, by superhuman effort, dragged our preserver away, and chained him up to the sink, after which I lit the gas.

"Then we perceived that the gentleman on the floor was a police constable.

"'Good heavens!' exclaimed my father, dropping the revolver, 'however did you come here?'

"''Ow did _I_ come 'ere?' retorted the man, sitting up and speaking in a tone of bitter, but not unnatural, indignation. 'Why, in the course of my dooty, that's 'ow _I_ come 'ere. I see a burglar getting in through the window, so I just follows and slips in after 'im.'

"'Did you catch him?' asked my father.

"'Did I catch 'im!' almost shrieked the man. ''Ow could I catch 'im with that blasted dog of yours 'olding me down by the throat, while 'e lights 'is pipe and walks out by the back door?'

...

Jerome k Jerome "Novel Notes", Chapter 2.

Last edited by SigTerm; 07-03-2011 at 09:14 AM.
 
Old 07-03-2011, 09:05 AM   #58
Hangdog42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by H_TeXMeX_H
Are you sure about that ? Because there are plenty of lethal dog attacks.

Lets look at some numbers, shall we:

2006-2008: 88 total US fatalities due to dogs (note this was a 3 year period, so roughly 30 a year)

1980-2006 - US averaged 32,300 annually (link is to pdf file).

Now please tell me which is the bigger problem?
 
Old 07-03-2011, 09:10 AM   #59
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@SigTerm: Nice story, but far away from what would have happened in reality.

Last edited by TobiSGD; 07-03-2011 at 09:11 AM.
 
Old 07-03-2011, 09:13 AM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SigTerm
IMO, dog is much more expensive and less reliable. Training, taking it to walk, food, vet bills, etc. If you got a good guard dog, that's good for you, but if it grows up to be cowardly, then it won't be that helpful. That reminds me:
And owning a gun isn't costly? A good, reliable gun isn't cheap and factor in maintenance, regular practice (ammo isn't cheap these days) and you're probably not far from a dog. And if you're not practicing regularly, then you're more of a danger to yourself and your family than any burglar.

And your story indicates nothing more than that dog owner was a complete and total moron. Anyone who has even a minimal understanding of dog breeds knows that bull dogs are some of the friendliest dogs around.
 
  


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