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Old 09-13-2021, 01:16 PM   #196
wpeckham
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I cannot accept the defeatist attitude that this is all okay, and people suffering and dying is fine, and species going extinct is natural, and we should just accept that. If we CAN reduce the impact and SAVE lives then to NOT act feels like a crime! I will take what actions I can, and support others who take what actions they can, to make things better. All of the rest is just noise.
 
Old 09-13-2021, 02:08 PM   #197
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Good points. But the big polluters are not acting, and won't act. The little bit we do as individuals is about as significant as a drop in the ocean. That said, I do my bit to limit my family's carbon footprint. I see this as inevitable that we walk towards our fate. Whether we get that far or not is another question. And when it's too late, everyone will want to do something
 
Old 09-13-2021, 02:30 PM   #198
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I consider ironic that the right calls others snowflakes. Seems they broke that also.
 
Old 09-13-2021, 07:24 PM   #199
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Quote:
Originally Posted by business_kid View Post
Good points. But the big polluters are not acting, and won't act. The little bit we do as individuals is about as significant as a drop in the ocean. That said, I do my bit to limit my family's carbon footprint. I see this as inevitable that we walk towards our fate. Whether we get that far or not is another question. And when it's too late, everyone will want to do something
If we act together we have strength in numbers. One of the things I do is pressure my government to act. There are enough doing that so that it is over 50% effective, but some in government still want those fossil fuel dollars. Insane, where will they spend that money when it all goes to ****?
 
Old 09-13-2021, 09:11 PM   #200
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"If we CAN reduce the impact and SAVE lives then to NOT act feels like a crime! I will take what actions I can, and support others who take what actions they can, to make things better ..."

If we act together we have strength in numbers. One of the things I do is pressure my government to act. There are enough doing that so that it is over 50% effective, but some in government still want those fossil fuel dollars. Insane, where will they spend that money when it all goes to ****?"

So here we have it: "the defenders of Planet Earth herself." Each of them individually persuaded that if they themselves do not "act," their planet will presumably turn into Saturn or Neptune. And likewise, if they do "act," their planet will become "better." All of this as a singular result of their singular or collective human action during this particular orbit.

Quite frankly, I think that one needs to consider that one might simply be being manipulated. You are first being told that "there is a planet-altering crisis," and then(!) told that you can personally "do something about it." (And, oh by the way, somewhere along the route there will always be someone who is quite ready to sell you something.)

"Skepticism is a virtue."
 
Old 09-14-2021, 03:59 AM   #201
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sundialsvcs
"Skepticism is a virtue."
In certain circumstances, I agree, and the internet is full of it. With that attitude, however, you'll never do anything. Because skepticism impedes you from cleasrly determining facts and realities. It particularly impedes you from acting meaningfully on them. The tobacco companies had a marketing strategy when the dirt about their products was coming out: "Doubt is our product." The same approach has been applied to Global warming, with success. Doubt + skepticism --> inaction.
 
Old 09-14-2021, 07:56 AM   #202
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Originally Posted by sundialsvcs View Post
[i]Each of them individually persuaded that if they themselves do not "act," their planet will presumably turn into Saturn or Neptune. And likewise, if they do "act," their planet will become "better."
At no point did anyone claim that there was some magic guarantee that things would get better. Clearly the current trend is for them to get worse (for living things) on this planet if we do NOT make a change. By acting we MIGHT be able to change that. Certainly we will change nothing by NOT taking any action.

If you study history, or have lived through it, you should know that we have been able to change our society, our government, and our environment in substantive ways by acting as a united group toward a single set of goals. If you attend the reports of the environmental scientists, you should know that there IS a chance to make a change in the progress and direction of climate change. If you ignore all of that, or are ignorant of some or all of that, you might deny all calls to action as hopeless or meaningless. That does not make it so. If you are NOT ignorant of that and you refuse to act, then you are suicidal and accept the outcome. I cannot be or recommend ignorance and inaction as a policy.

Last edited by wpeckham; 09-14-2021 at 08:07 AM.
 
Old 09-14-2021, 09:19 AM   #203
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American Thinker just today published this article: The difference between climate and weather, and why models fail.

It is written by an author who is in the business of constructing and interpreting computer models.

Quote:
Climate models have three features.

Firstly, they assume that carbon dioxide in the atmosphere is driven by human activity and that CO2 drives global temperature. They calmly ignore the moderating effects of oceans, the unmeasured effects of volcanoes, and the declining effects of extra CO2.

Secondly, they try to write formulae for the myriad of factors that drive the weather. Then these computers spit out their estimates for "average global temperature" — a bureaucratic invention — nothing lives or grows in "average global temperature".

Thirdly, these models have only one valuable feature — they are known to be consistently wrong.

The assumptions are suspect, the relationships are far more complex than the models assume, and their scary forecasts are worthless. (See results below.)
A "computer model" is exactly that – a "model," not an "oracle." If the assumptions(!) that go into it prove to be incorrect or insufficient, then it is very simply a case of "garbage in, garbage out." And we should therefore always approach model-predicted outcomes with eyes wide open. We should never be so presumptuous that we construct [international ..] public policy based strictly on a mathematical model. We have to always bear in mind that our tools just might deceive us, as easily as they might inform us, and therefore it is up to us to decide what to do with these things we have made for ourselves.

Last edited by sundialsvcs; 09-14-2021 at 09:27 AM.
 
Old 09-14-2021, 12:09 PM   #204
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In 2021 there is barely a single square mile of land upon which a human has not stood. Volcanoes, being a devastating event especially because human habitation often gravitates quite closely to them, have been exhaustively studied. How much average particulate as well as CO2 occur in a years time is a known quantity within an extremely small room for variation or error.

We have very good records, some written by humans and others "written" in rocks and ice, of CO2 levels dating back millions of years. There is a sharp and accelerating climb in CO2 levels beginning with The Industrial Revolution as should be expected with MILLIONS of TONS of particulate matter and CO2 continuously being vented into our atmosphere every year. for well over 100 years now.

Human caused CO2 outstrips volcano contributed by 60 TIMES! and is increasing and accelerating still. Does anyone actually imagine that can have no effect?
 
Old 09-14-2021, 02:12 PM   #205
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+1 enorbet, and it's not often I say that!.

It's often the things you don't think of that have huige effects. I was given a statistic that a small number(5, or 20?) of the world's largest ships emitted more CO2 annually that some large number of the smallest countries. There's no law mandating pollution control on sea or in the air.
 
Old 09-14-2021, 05:59 PM   #206
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In 1971, I set off to work in 'the woods' wearing a Levi denim jacket with an upside-down American flag patch on my left shoulder and an Ecology Flag patch on my right. Many older men, like my boss, asked me what the deal was with the patches. I told them my country was in distress (the upside-down flag) and that we all should be aware of what were allowing to de done to the environment and Earth's ecosystems was wrong. I hitchhiked from WA to TX three times routnd trip during a 3 and 1/2 year period shortly thereafter during the Seventies and wore the jacket most of the time. I was carrying the message but next to nobody listened. My work history shows how much I cared and still do about Earth and its ecosystems.

I tried to tell and have shown by my actions I care about this home we call Earth. It grieves me that money is still the king dictating corporate and state actions. Our grandchildren will pay for our inattention to that which gives us life and, more importatnly, a quality life. They will NOT have the latter, thanks to us.

All Creaton will pay for our ignorance and avarice, not just humans. Whatever we do NOW, it is too little too late and all will pay. We are just beginning to do so.

Get yourselves and those you love ready spiritually, for physically we can do little. The ball is in motion.
 
Old 09-14-2021, 06:01 PM   #207
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Shipping accounts for ~11% of CO2 emissions from transport, which equates to ~2.5% overall.

See https://ourworldindata.org/uploads/2...rt-800x315.png

Approx 79% of shipping CO2 comes from containers, tankers, and bulkers (of which there are over 26,000; source).

Reducing the amount of petrol/diesel vehicles on the road would also reduce the number of tankers needed to transport that fuel.

 
Old 09-14-2021, 06:34 PM   #208
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sundialsvcs View Post
American Thinker just today published this article: The difference between climate and weather, and why models fail.

It is written by an author who is in the business of constructing and interpreting computer models.



A "computer model" is exactly that a "model," not an "oracle." If the assumptions(!) that go into it prove to be incorrect or insufficient, then it is very simply a case of "garbage in, garbage out." And we should therefore always approach model-predicted outcomes with eyes wide open. We should never be so presumptuous that we construct [international ..] public policy based strictly on a mathematical model. We have to always bear in mind that our tools just might deceive us, as easily as they might inform us, and therefore it is up to us to decide what to do with these things we have made for ourselves.
So, these two 'scientists' of American Thinker are right, every one else is wrong ?
It's so sad there are people who reason their way into oblivion, for the sake of money maybe.
Pascal said that 'Homme est un etre de raison', I have to disagree with him on that one.
 
Old 09-14-2021, 08:50 PM   #209
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No, I think that the real point here should be that none of us should be so presumptuous that any of us assert that "I am right, and therefore everyone else is wrong."

Let's all instead be ready to say that, "maybe all of us are wrong." And, to say that without apology.

"Yes!" Let us strive to try to figure out "how this planet works." But, let's never go so far as to proclaim that we actually did.

Last edited by sundialsvcs; 09-14-2021 at 08:52 PM.
 
Old 09-15-2021, 05:52 AM   #210
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sundialsvcs
"Yes!" Let us strive to try to figure out "how this planet works." But, let's never go so far as to proclaim that we actually did.
In other words, let us decide nothing? Sure, we ought to be open to evidence that we're wrong. But we need to have working assumptions to allow us to decide things and run our lives. My working assumption is that mankind is overheating the planet and, left to our own devices, I see no likelihood of it stopping quick enough to avoid major issues.
 
  


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