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Old 03-30-2019, 05:11 PM   #46
freemedia2018
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trihexagonal View Post
I can click on a link to the story on a mainstream internet news site and it tell me everything I need to know about what went down without choosing to look at a 16 minute video
I haven't watched it, and I don't wish to, but I think you're missing his point and perhaps the point of going beyond the what's being said as well.

Journalism is investigation. It can be done by any person, but if you're trying to verify, the best person to do that is yourself. There are other reasons to view the video (none of which sufficiently interest me, though I will certainly defend the idea) other than voyeurism and sickness. This point keeps trying to be made, and I don't know how you're not finding it when they put it in front of you.

Not to mention that in the media, we just had this giant thing where left-leaning celebrities were calling for physical assaults on a minor because they didn't like his facial expression (facecrime?) and when we got the rest of the footage it told a completely different story.

This is different in that it's the sort of footage that normally gets censored, but similar in every other way-- and if everyone is giving their opinion on it, and everyone has watched it, there's certainly an argument to not be among those that haven't. Unless of course, it's your preference (as it is mine.) I would prefer not to watch it, but that doesn't mean there isn't a good argument for someone doing so. It might be worth everyone watching the Rodney King video, https://invidio.us/watch?v=-4JRvOmte1s but doing so doesn't mean you have some sick reason. I'm not sure what else you could be implying, so let's just stop dancing around that (if that's what we were doing.) EDIT: replaced Rodney King documentary including footage of beating with video about yummy ice cream sandwiches

Last edited by freemedia2018; 03-30-2019 at 05:22 PM.
 
Old 03-30-2019, 08:01 PM   #47
Trihexagonal
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Quote:
Originally Posted by freemedia2018 View Post
I haven't watched it, and I don't wish to, but I think you're missing his point and perhaps the point of going beyond the what's being said as well.

Journalism is investigation. It can be done by any person, but if you're trying to verify, the best person to do that is yourself. There are other reasons to view the video (none of which sufficiently interest me, though I will certainly defend the idea) other than voyeurism and sickness. This point keeps trying to be made, and I don't know how you're not finding it when they put it in front of you.

Not to mention that in the media, we just had this giant thing where left-leaning celebrities were calling for physical assaults on a minor because they didn't like his facial expression (facecrime?) and when we got the rest of the footage it told a completely different story.
So you're going to compare a story driven by media where it's necessary to view the whole thing to know what actually went on to watching a 16 minute video of numerous people being shot because you're not sure of the facts?

There's quite a difference in evidence in the two.



Quote:
Originally Posted by freemedia2018 View Post
This is different in that it's the sort of footage that normally gets censored, but similar in every other way-- and if everyone is giving their opinion on it, and everyone has watched it, there's certainly an argument to not be among those that haven't. Unless of course, it's your preference (as it is mine.) I would prefer not to watch it, but that doesn't mean there isn't a good argument for someone doing so.

All I asked was that they make it.



Quote:
Originally Posted by freemedia2018 View Post
I'm not sure what else you could be implying, so let's just stop dancing around that (if that's what we were doing.)
I think I made myself clear.

I'm dubious that this wasn't OP's intent from the start if you want my whole opinion on it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by teckk View Post
I got the video and manifesto online so that I could see for myself what happened. Golly... I did not want this to be a political argument thread...
Golly... Then why mention politics at all?
 
Old 03-31-2019, 02:40 AM   #48
ondoho
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Originally Posted by enorbet View Post
Things are that different all over the world. I think it is quite naive to consider that Organized Religion isn't two-faced or none of them would ever even entertain the notion of "Soldiers of God", and last time I checked pretty much all but Buddhism does or at the very least it's foundations are firmly rooted in Us vs/ Them, Devout vs/ Hertics/NonBelievers/Blasphemers/etc/etc/etc. It comes with the territory of Chosen People.

Leadership of such organizations needs to make a pleasant public face and they'd prefer at least some of their followers not commit violence on each other so they pay lip service to oppose coercion but some sort of Crusade, Inquisition, Racist Purges, or Jihad is just a few steps down that path. At the root of this is the simple fact that Organized Religion, as opposed to personal spirituality, is a business. They attempt to, and often succeed, in creating wealth and power ostensibly to "do God's Work". They even enjoy Tax Free operation in many societies and governments and like all businesses, they fight the perceived competition which fits right into the whole Us vs/ Them point of view.
I seriously do not believe that this is what Church is like in much of the world nowadays.

The country I live in is almost 100% protestant (of those that belong to any religion at all, which is roughly 74% of the pop).

The church definitely doesn't drive any such agenda, neither above nor below the surface. de facto, it's a community service, and having a little bit of experience with their work, I can say that they don't have this "Us vs Them" thing, anyone is very welcome regardless of religion.
 
Old 03-31-2019, 03:10 AM   #49
freemedia2018
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trihexagonal View Post
So you're going to compare a story driven by media where it's necessary to view the whole thing to know what actually went on to watching a 16 minute video of numerous people being shot because you're not sure of the facts?
As a general rule? Absolutely. Are there exceptions? Perhaps, though I'm still on the fence about whether this is one of them.

Although I put very little stock in 99% of conspiracy theories (and I'm not giving a lot of time to whether this story is relevant to that notion, but other people are-- which by the way, rather neatly answers your question to the OP) I think we live in a world at this point where terrorism-related events need to be examined for false flag evidence. At the time it happens, most people think that's a despicable idea. "This is just to further your agenda." I can certainly understand, if they automatically associate it with people who deny the Holocaust. I'm not advocating anything like that, but getting back to the generalisation there are no non-tragic false flag events. Tragedy is inherent to such a thing. I do think there are times when it's relevant to history and democracy. The real problem is, most events probably won't be like that, https://www.breitbart.com/social-jus...wing-epidemic/ so you have to wade through a lot of tragedy to find them. We know of at least ONE (for certain) in Germany. It is very relevant, historically.

Quote:
Operation Himmler was arguably the first act of the Second World War in Europe.
The rest I suppose, are considered (and likely) "theories." But when such events are used to justify war, the tragedy is only made larger by not questioning the event. So while some may use their scepticism as a foot in the door for their unsavoury political agenda, it's possible that in this day and age-- more people really SHOULD be examining these events closely. That's what I meant when I said "journalism is investigation." We live in an age of citizen journalism.

In that context, you insisting that "I can click on a link to the story on a mainstream internet news site and it tell me everything I need to know" is utterly meaningless, even dangerous.

AI and its uncanny ability to manipulate video will eventually make it even more important.

Quote:
All I asked was that they make it.
Alright. But I don't think it's too difficult to make that argument. Nor do I negate that some people have a disturbing fetish, conditioned partly by the medias psychological exploitation for ratings. I hold the media in greater contempt than its billions of victims, though maybe you had the OP sussed from the beginning. If you're wrong though, it's a heck of an accusation to make on a forum of this nature. As such, I don't think it's unreasonable for someone to question (as in wonder, not demand) what makes you certain enough to imply it.

I'm not impressed by most conspiracy theories, or the average sceptic who either has a home-school concept of physics or historical context, or both. But I do wonder what it would be like to live in a world where people had called out the Reichstag fire for what it was-- and prevented the invasion of Poland. A very tall order indeed, but insurmountable in a world where full trust is put in the mainstream media.

Last edited by freemedia2018; 03-31-2019 at 03:31 AM.
 
Old 03-31-2019, 06:02 AM   #50
Trihexagonal
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I take it you are a trained observer as am I. I will admit though, you're much sharper than I could ever hope to be.

I could never take away as much pertinent information from watching the 16 minute video in question as you seem to think you would. I doubt I could tell if it was a false flag operation by anything he said or did short of a confession or Freudian slip.

But I haven't seen it and don't need to see it to know what happened. A bunch of defenseless people gathered to worship got killed by a crazy person. Some poor woman walking outside, too.



Quote:
Originally Posted by freemedia2018 View Post
If you're wrong though, it's a heck of an accusation to make on a forum of this nature. As such, I don't think it's unreasonable for someone to question (as in wonder, not demand) what makes you certain enough to imply it.
I couldn't help but wonder myself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trihexagonal View Post
I couldn't help but wonder why you felt the need to see the video. By your own statement you weren't watching it being streamed live. Did you watch the video of Danny Pearl being beheaded, too?


Sorry, I notice things like that. My heart goes out to the victims and their families.


I notice things like that, trained observer you know... I did say I was sorry. That's just the way my mind works. When you work with crazy people you have to take note of every word, facial movement, voice inflection, body language, etc. I carry that over from my work history and it has served me well all my life.


OP had every chance to speak up. My questions were not accusations but I did think from the very start he posted it to make just this kind of thing happen. I couldn't make a case on that but I could ask a question as to why he felt the need to watch the video that would give me insight as to his actual reason for posting. If it was just to say how badly he felt about it he would have left it at that in his OP. He did not respond, even to tell me I had it all wrong.

It wasn't directed at Ser Olmy. He interjected himself into the conversation with a posting to intercede in OP's defense. But that quickly changed to him rationalizing the situation, to defending his right to be in the least restrictive environment (hospital and not prison), not thinking he was crazy, etc. I based my responses on his.

I couldn't see his facial movement, voice inflection or body language. Words and how they were used is all I had to go by. Am I infallible? Not by a long shot and when I am wrong will be the first to admit it.

But I did not put words in his mouth. I let him dig his own hole, I just pushed the dirt back in on him. I could have told him to stop, it was only getting worse, but he kept digging till I had enough to lay it out.


I'll bow out of this conversation now before it gets closed or I get banned for practicing Internet Psychology without a license. If I have made a mistake I am terribly sorry, but I don't see it at this point.

Last edited by Trihexagonal; 03-31-2019 at 06:14 AM.
 
Old 03-31-2019, 09:51 AM   #51
enorbet
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ondoho View Post
I seriously do not believe that this is what Church is like in much of the world nowadays.

The country I live in is almost 100% protestant (of those that belong to any religion at all, which is roughly 74% of the pop).

The church definitely doesn't drive any such agenda, neither above nor below the surface. de facto, it's a community service, and having a little bit of experience with their work, I can say that they don't have this "Us vs Them" thing, anyone is very welcome regardless of religion.
Maybe it isn't as visible to you since as you say you live in a country that's "almost 100% Protestant". There isn't a whole lot of "them" there. I recognize that many if not most organized religions are not as pervasive, invasive, and powerful as they were in years gone by but it should be obvious the message, even if not formally expressed by the administration, still gets out to many of the followers or pejorative words like heretic, blasphemer, infidel, etc. wouldn't still exist and be in fairly common usage.

Statistics show that there is a substantial increase in polarization between religions, especially Christian, Islam, and Jewish. The various news services bear out that this isn't just idle gossip kept among the faithful. It has already and for years resulted in numerous public attacks and even genocidal warfare. Do you really not see this?
 
Old 03-31-2019, 11:00 AM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trihexagonal View Post
It wasn't directed at Ser Olmy. He interjected himself into the conversation with a posting to intercede in OP's defense. But that quickly changed to him rationalizing the situation, to defending his right to be in the least restrictive environment (hospital and not prison), not thinking he was crazy, etc.
I did no such thing.

You called him crazy. I disagreed. You claimed to have the experience to determine that this was most likely the case, even in a clinical sense, and I then simply pointed out what the obvious consequences of that would be.

This will be my final contribution to this thread, as it seems my command of the English language is so poor that it is impossible, even for a trained observer, to extract the intended message from the text.
 
Old 04-01-2019, 12:54 PM   #53
ondoho
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet View Post
Maybe it isn't as visible to you since as you say you live in a country that's "almost 100% Protestant". There isn't a whole lot of "them" there.
there's plenty of "them" hereabouts, esp. in the capital region.
and plenty of people making a ruckus about it (they call it "politics"), inventing derogative terms for members of another religion etc....

Quote:
I recognize that many if not most organized religions are not as pervasive, invasive, and powerful as they were in years gone by but it should be obvious the message, even if not formally expressed by the administration, still gets out to many of the followers or pejorative words like heretic, blasphemer, infidel, etc. wouldn't still exist and be in fairly common usage.
...but i really do not see this, and have never heard those terms used by representatives of said church.
not in the mainstream church institution as it is in this country.
and i don't believe that any followers of the main protestant church hear that message.

that said, even hereabouts there's some pretty crazy and f***ed up people, fanatics of all kind, even under the guise of some christian (protestant even) sect.

no, i'm not saying that hate and intolerance and chosen people syndrome do not exist in this country.

Quote:
Statistics show that there is a substantial increase in polarization between religions, especially Christian, Islam, and Jewish. The various news services bear out that this isn't just idle gossip kept among the faithful. It has already and for years resulted in numerous public attacks and even genocidal warfare. Do you really not see this?
i really hope you meant to say "Do you really not see this in your country's church" - otherwise i'd feel a little insulted.

of course I see that this is an issue all over the world.

I just wanted to point out that in my country, I do not see that the church as an institution, or role model, has a part in it.
 
Old 04-01-2019, 01:48 PM   #54
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Quote:
but I could ask a question as to why he felt the need to watch the video that would give me insight as to his actual reason for posting
Just to see for myself what happened. The "media" has no credibility whatsoever to me. I don't believe them. And after I saw for myself what happened, after I got my eyes wiped so that I could see to type, I said, my condolences to you, like you do at a funeral, even though you might not know the man in the coffin.
Quote:
If it was just to say how badly he felt about it he would have left it at that in his OP
Yes, A thread for LQ members to tell the members in New Zealand, I sure am sorry for what happened to you. Can't fix it, but sorry.
Quote:
I'll bow out of this conversation now before it gets closed or I get banned for practicing Internet Psychology without a license
I don't think free speech should be suppressed. We have a lot of that happening in the US right now. They call it hate speech, and that term is just about meaningless. It simply means, you said something that I don't like and therefore I will cry hate speech so that you have to shut up and not speak.

The answer for speech that one does not like is more free speech. Compete in the marketplace of ideas and show your idea to be superior to the other mans. Kind of like open source software. The good projects go on and get continuously modified and added to, the bad ones die out.

I did not want to make political statements about this event, except for my jab at the "media". And I don't care about that, they deserve it.
But that does not barr anyone else from making comments. Say what you want.

As far as the motivation for what the killer did, I thought he made that clear in his manifesto. He was saving his people from the evil invaders. He convinced himself that it was just to do so, and that he was a hero. If you saw the video, there was no emotion on his face, no sorrow, co compassion, stupid little song playing, just like a kid game.

I haven't seen yet, but I would like to know if he was using psychiatric drugs and therefore had his brain chemistry altered. That is the one common thread with the US school shooters. Medicated into being a partial zombie, Dillon Roof another example.
 
Old 04-02-2019, 01:02 AM   #55
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I would say the 'prescribe instead of treat' thing started in the 90's.

Started running into quite a few of them living in San Diego from '92 to '04

Don't really know shat the rest of this thread is about.
 
Old 04-02-2019, 02:29 AM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ondoho View Post
no, i'm not saying that hate and intolerance and chosen people syndrome do not exist in this country.


i really hope you meant to say "Do you really not see this in your country's church" - otherwise i'd feel a little insulted.

of course I see that this is an issue all over the world.

I just wanted to point out that in my country, I do not see that the church as an institution, or role model, has a part in it.
OK. Don't take offense, please. We were talking about apparently different arenas... sort of like the difference between "weather" and "climate". Of course I can't speak knowledgeably about your country but I do see what is going on globally, even the way young people talk in online games. Polarization is real.
 
Old 04-02-2019, 02:44 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by enorbet View Post
Polarization is real.
I can't deny it has increased substantially. But do you think it has more to do with the church, or the corporate media? Replace or amend, if it pleases you to do so, "corporate media" with "election campaigns."
 
Old 04-02-2019, 04:27 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by freemedia2018 View Post
I can't deny it has increased substantially. But do you think it has more to do with the church, or the corporate media? Replace or amend, if it pleases you to do so, "corporate media" with "election campaigns."
Aren't corporate media and election campaigns intrinsically related? Corporate media just work as advertisement agencies for different political parties anytime there are elections.
 
Old 04-03-2019, 03:50 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by teckk View Post
Just to see for myself what happened.

Thanks for answering. That's al I wanted to know. I'm sorry if I offended you.
 
Old 04-03-2019, 05:27 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by jazzy_mood View Post
Aren't corporate media and election campaigns intrinsically related? Corporate media just work as advertisement agencies for different political parties anytime there are elections.
Even when there aren't elections.
 
  


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