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Old 03-27-2019, 02:14 PM   #16
ondoho
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hazel View Post
It's a horrible business. A lot of the victims were refugees who thought they'd found a place of safety.

If it's any comfort, recent research has shown that Nazi terrorists of this sort are usually weird from birth rather than being the victims of some kind of radicalisation. They are often the children of broken homes, childhood victims of violence, and with a record of being violent themselves at school. They feel like aliens in normal society and, when they find extreme right wing websites, it's like coming home. At last they have found people like themselves. It's quite a different pattern from Islamist terrorism where you get radicalisation of people who were previously completely normal.

Maybe we could round up these damaged children and fix them somehow before they are old enough to buy guns.
Quote:
Originally Posted by freemedia2018 View Post
Hear, hear.

I also think it's a very important time for the world to stop conflating the entire political right with the alt-right. I was NEVER a Thatcher fan, and in the States the constitution forbids such meddling, though her concept of denying airtime to terrorists had merit and is worth considering, without the state actually banning coverage (viewers would have to petition the media in millions. It's a lot more likely than going against the first amendment.)

When the right and the alt-right are lumped together in political rhetoric, it not only gives airtime to the alt-right, it exaggerates their size tenfold.

This makes members of the alt-right around the world feel like they are part of something much, much larger and powerful than it is. The more we create a bold line between the right and the alt-right, and reverse that trend, the closer to real size the alt-right will appear-- and the incentive for troubled people to join is diminished. It's no coincidence that the killer looked to America, but America is not (no matter what the media claims) a Nazi country, it is not a half-Nazi country. And it is extremely dangerous and costly to try to make it appear like one for political gain.
what are you on about?
i can see nothing of what you criticize in hazel's post.
she is not conflating anything.

you probably just got ticked off by her using the N-word (no, not that n-word, the other one).
Her using it might have been a little unfortunate, given Godwin's law and its aftermath...
 
Old 03-27-2019, 02:53 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ondoho View Post
what are you on about?
i can see nothing of what you criticize in hazel's post.
she is not conflating anything.
You've got to stop playing moderator-- I gave hazel reputation and started with "hear, hear." That indicates strong agreement, not critique. Playing MITM only makes things more confusing. I don't need you to be an intermediary or translator, and you have a habit of misunderstanding/misinterpreting what people are saying. I say this as politely as it can be said.

Quote:
Her using it might have been a little unfortunate, given Godwin's law and its aftermath...
Godwin's law is moot when talking about the alt-right. He says so himself:

Quote:
Godwin made similar remarks on social networking websites Facebook and Twitter with respect to the two previous days' Unite the Right rally in Charlottesville, Virginia, endorsing and encouraging efforts to compare its alt-right organizers to Nazis.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law

Godwin's law is dead. At the very least, it takes a back seat to world events involving white supremacists. Even for Mike Godwin. Self-censorship is the last thing we need, we need thoughtful critique and careful examination of the world, not to be afraid of talking about it or covering up and hiding/hiding from relevant information.

Last edited by freemedia2018; 03-27-2019 at 03:02 PM.
 
Old 03-27-2019, 02:58 PM   #18
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There is no alt right or alt left, they are the same thing working for the same people/groups/entities etc....
 
Old 03-27-2019, 03:09 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuangTzu View Post
There is no alt right or alt left, they are the same thing working for the same people/groups/entities etc....
Horseshoe theory? There is an alt-right and an alt-left IMO, but they're both fascists, and nothing the world really needs (except as a bad example.)
 
Old 03-27-2019, 03:20 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by freemedia2018 View Post
Horseshoe theory? There is an alt-right and an alt-left IMO, but they're both fascists, and nothing the world really needs (except as a bad example.)
Horseshoe is interesting but I think its more similar to either two wings on the same bird (similar to political parties pretending to be opposed to each other) or the snake eating its own tail/tale.

History has shown repeatedly that those groups are one and the same, brown shirts, black shirts, fascists, socialists, communists etc... I agree with you, and history has shown that those groups/ideologies do only two things well---destruction and mass murder.
 
Old 03-27-2019, 03:27 PM   #21
enorbet
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As soon as you posit that the Left and the Right are equivalent the terms lose any meaning which is generally exactly the idea. It makes the easier to simply dismiss rather than actually consider any platform. That the extremes wish to use force to implement their agendas is a similarity (and one to be emphatically avoided) but that doesn't make +1 = -1, ice = fire, up = down, etc.
 
Old 03-27-2019, 03:34 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet View Post
As soon as you posit that the Left and the Right are equivalent the terms lose any meaning which is generally exactly the idea. It makes the easier to simply dismiss rather than actually consider any platform. That the extremes wish to use force to implement their agendas is a similarity (and one to be emphatically avoided) but that doesn't make +1 = -1, ice = fire, up = down, etc.
Enorbet, but ice in its extreme burns just like fire, you should know that. Fire in its extreme moves like water, +1 and -1 can be the same if the goal is 0 (zero).
 
Old 03-27-2019, 03:38 PM   #23
ondoho
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Quote:
Originally Posted by freemedia2018 View Post
You've got to stop playing moderator-- I gave hazel reputation and started with "hear, hear." That indicates strong agreement, not critique. Playing MITM only makes things more confusing. I don't need you to be an intermediary or translator, and you have a habit of misunderstanding/misinterpreting what people are saying. I say this as politely as it can be said.
i wasn't playing moderator.
nobody except hazel can see who gave her reputation.
i am not playing MITM, just voicing my opinion, just like you are and everybody else here (well, at least in General).
with that said, you also have a habit of misunderstanding/misinterpreting what people are saying. I say this as politely as it can be said.

nice.

we will see where this leads to in the end.
 
Old 03-27-2019, 03:44 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuangTzu View Post
ice in its extreme burns just like fire
Extreme acids and bases. The bottom of the ocean and outer space. Parental abuse and parental neglect. We acknowledge the differences on an intellectual level, but the damage or threat is similar and related.

Conflating the right with the alt-right on the other hand, only strengthens the latter and weakens the ability for half of the political system (the right) to stand against the alt-right, leaving it entirely to the left, who now lose millions of potential/possibly needed right-wing allies (you read that correctly) from fighting the most dangerous fringe fanatics. It's very risky politics, for short-term gain and long-term destruction of the political system.

The real effect of this happening is that the extremists overpower the moderates, and the horseshoe is inverted-- with extremists at the top and moderates on the "fringe."

The way to stop that is to establish and maintain a clear line, not to get confused and accidentally lend ten-fold credence ("they make up half the country now!" NO they dont!) and status to the extremists. But the line that really matters isn't between alt-right and alt-left-- it's between the alt-collective (the extreme) and the majority of each side of the political spectrum. That's the line the world can't afford to squander for the sake of rhetoric.

Last edited by freemedia2018; 03-27-2019 at 03:50 PM.
 
Old 03-27-2019, 03:52 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ondoho View Post
nobody except hazel can see who gave her reputation.
I will give this reputation, just so you can see that it is possible to sign it.

EDIT: it will have to wait though, I already repped you for something you posted in another thread. I will be able to prove this point later. I do wish you would stop putting words in my mouth all the same. You do not understand me, and you are getting in the middle of me responding to someone else. Once or twice is an honest mistake. After that, it's closer to trouble-making. I don't question your intentions at all, only the merit or need for your assistance. If nothing else, consider (along with your good intentions) that I consider it unhelpful and distracting. The honest thing to do is consider the possibility-- I'm not asking you to take my word for it, but consider it. Thanks.

Quote:
just voicing my opinion
Your opinion was a misinterpretation of what I said, and it was unhelpful, and not for the first time. I hope you will learn from this habit and develop a different one instead. I don't expect you to read minds, only to hopefully learn from mistakes and misunderstandings. That's not an unreasonable thing to wish.

Last edited by freemedia2018; 03-27-2019 at 04:02 PM.
 
Old 03-28-2019, 01:03 PM   #26
ondoho
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Quote:
Originally Posted by freemedia2018 View Post
I will give this reputation, just so you can see that it is possible to sign it.

EDIT: it will have to wait though, I already repped you for something you posted in another thread. I will be able to prove this point later. I do wish you would stop putting words in my mouth all the same. You do not understand me, and you are getting in the middle of me responding to someone else. Once or twice is an honest mistake. After that, it's closer to trouble-making. I don't question your intentions at all, only the merit or need for your assistance. If nothing else, consider (along with your good intentions) that I consider it unhelpful and distracting. The honest thing to do is consider the possibility-- I'm not asking you to take my word for it, but consider it. Thanks.



Your opinion was a misinterpretation of what I said, and it was unhelpful, and not for the first time. I hope you will learn from this habit and develop a different one instead. I don't expect you to read minds, only to hopefully learn from mistakes and misunderstandings. That's not an unreasonable thing to wish.
please don't flatter yourself, and don't flout your suspicions lest they become self-fulfilling.
i have no interest in targeting you specifically or - how did you put it - "troublemaking" on behalf of you. none.

you're right, i misunderstood that post of yours.
if you feel that i'm making a habit out of this then it's just that, your feeling. your interpretation.

if you'd have reacted differently i'd have said sorry.
 
Old 03-28-2019, 02:16 PM   #27
freemedia2018
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ondoho View Post
please don't flatter yourself,
That comment is unnecessary and borders on rudeness.

Quote:
and don't flout your suspicions lest they become self-fulfilling.
Don't shift responsibility for your actions onto me.

Quote:
i have no interest in targeting you specifically or - how did you put it - "troublemaking" on behalf of you. none.
I already said I'm not questioning your intentions, only your actions. If you're not interested in making trouble, why don't you do as I kindly suggested and cease?

Quote:
you're right, i misunderstood that post of yours.
if you feel that i'm making a habit out of this then it's just that, your feeling. your interpretation.
It has happened more than once in a week, are you saying otherwise?

Quote:
if you'd have reacted differently i'd have said sorry.
I don't require an apology. I would have liked for you to learn from it, but you insist on making excuses and shifting the blame.
 
Old 03-28-2019, 02:41 PM   #28
hazel
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Gentlemen, please!! I was merely expressing my opinion, not trying to start a war. And anyway, I had no idea that you could find out who gave you a reputation point. I always assumed it was completely anonymous.
 
Old 03-28-2019, 02:48 PM   #29
freemedia2018
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Originally Posted by hazel View Post
I had no idea that you could find out who gave you a reputation point. I always assumed it was completely anonymous.
Unless it is signed. You should have one that says "hear, hear." I could be more explicit and add my handle, though it could actually be "forged" the same way. I could rep someone and say George Washington approved (as could anybody.)

Let's be clear about this though, you've done nothing to start anything. Your posts were useful and insightful. Some of ondoho's posts are also useful and insightful. I can only hope some of mine are as well.
 
Old 03-28-2019, 07:57 PM   #30
ChuangTzu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hazel View Post
Gentlemen, please!! I was merely expressing my opinion, not trying to start a war. And anyway, I had no idea that you could find out who gave you a reputation point. I always assumed it was completely anonymous.
You did nothing wrong hazel...Just some blokes sharing some thoughts and having a lively discussion.
 
  


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