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Old 03-16-2019, 07:45 AM   #1
teckk
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Christchurch


I would like to express my condolences to the members in New Zealand for the disaster that you've just had. I got the video and manifesto online so that I could see for myself what happened. Golly... I did not want this to be a political argument thread, but rather to say I'm sorry for you all.
 
Old 03-16-2019, 08:05 PM   #2
frankbell
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I can join in those sentiments.
 
Old 03-17-2019, 01:39 AM   #3
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Kia kaha.
 
Old 03-17-2019, 04:05 AM   #4
hazel
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It's a horrible business. A lot of the victims were refugees who thought they'd found a place of safety.

If it's any comfort, recent research has shown that Nazi terrorists of this sort are usually weird from birth rather than being the victims of some kind of radicalisation. They are often the children of broken homes, childhood victims of violence, and with a record of being violent themselves at school. They feel like aliens in normal society and, when they find extreme right wing websites, it's like coming home. At last they have found people like themselves. It's quite a different pattern from Islamist terrorism where you get radicalisation of people who were previously completely normal.

Maybe we could round up these damaged children and fix them somehow before they are old enough to buy guns.
 
Old 03-17-2019, 04:12 AM   #5
syg00
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teckk View Post
I did not want this to be a political argument thread
No chance - as already shown.

Down under, we all feel the pain.
 
Old 03-17-2019, 12:22 PM   #6
jsbjsb001
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hazel View Post
...
Maybe we could round up these damaged children and fix them somehow before they are old enough to buy guns.
It would be nice to think so, but unfortunately, by the time you realise, it's probably already too late.

It just goes to show that "white nationalism" is just as much a threat as "Islamic terrorism". It boils down to one thing, hate. More precisely, intolerance, which left to simmer, spills into violence. This country (Australia) needs to wake up. Unfortunately, even in the federal parliament we have racist politicians that are fanning the flames of hatred and intolerance...
 
Old 03-17-2019, 12:58 PM   #7
enorbet
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FWIW I think Hate boils down to Fear. None of us kills flies with the same passion as we kill, say Black Widow spiders. For someone to do such a horrible thing implies to me they feel threatened to an extreme and also have the mindset to lump all of a kind into one common thing like All Blacks, All Muslims, All Christians, All non-believersetc etc. to risk .. no not risk, accept! since they must know the likelihood of escape is slim to none.

In a free world or even just our own free minds we can't jail or wipe out or even "fix" extremist groups that might become violent but I think the first step is exposure. Mainstream Christians need to come out and state explicitly that anyone who promotes Fear and Violence is not accepted "into the club" and leaders should watch for early signs and come out explicitly against such thinking and behavior. The same goes for Islam. A few extremists have given fodder for fear that has besmirched the name of peaceful believers and I have yet to see any harsh denouncement of those extremists. This is by no means justification for the despicable acts all over and certainly at Christchurch but it should be a wake-up call.

Throughout history the concept of "Chosen People" has opened doors to violence in some overly zealous individuals and groups. The solution should be obvious. Nobody else's beliefs actually threatens our own unless they/we accommodate force as a viable option. The entire concept of "Soldiers of God" is an abominable oxymoron. If He/She/It/They exists they don't require human intervention. Once you head down that path it is destined at least with some, even many, to become like The Highlander with "There can be only One". That I think is a fatal mistake and a powderkeg just waiting on a spark. Like it or not, we are all "in this" together, just stumbling along to find our way to something meaningful.

Specific to this event and thread, my heart goes out to all the many victims of this despicable act. I certainly hope reason prevails and this trumped up polarity some day ends.
 
Old 03-17-2019, 04:11 PM   #8
ChuangTzu
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Thoughts and Prayers for those affected!

It is important to remember that noone has the right to commit violence against another (fill in the blank), except for self defense. Countries and individuals should not jump to knee jerk reactions resulting in authoritative, police state methods as this is just another form of violence and the supposed enemy wins and the victims become further victimized.

Guns did not cause these insane men/women to do this, mental disorders-fear-hate-rage-disillusionment did, and perhaps medications, cultures that glorify violence etc... Let's look at the root cause and not the branches.
 
Old 03-17-2019, 10:19 PM   #9
Trihexagonal
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teckk View Post
I got the video and manifesto online so that I could see for myself what happened.

I couldn't help but wonder why you felt the need to see the video. By your own statement you weren't watching it being streamed live. Did you watch the video of Danny Pearl being beheaded, too?


Sorry, I notice things like that. My heart goes out to the victims and their families.
 
Old 03-18-2019, 01:17 AM   #10
descendant_command
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teckk View Post
I got the video and manifesto online so that I could see for myself what happened.
Would you do the same for kiddie porn?

https://i.stuff.co.nz/national/crime...le-publication
 
Old 03-18-2019, 05:57 AM   #11
cynwulf
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trihexagonal View Post
I couldn't help but wonder why you felt the need to see the video.
Probably because we live in a society where many believe it's ok to view this kind of thing - i.e. that simply viewing it is innocuous enough...

Over the last two or so decades we've seen an increase in this kind of thing, particularly an increase in nastiness and in deriving entertainment from the misfortunes of others. The medium for this is often so called "social media".

The "smartphone revolution" gave everyone a camera and of course it became "entertainment" for some to film someone being attacked, or worse, to show to others. There is a detachment from reality, with the viewer seeming as desensitised as the perpetrator.

There was a time when a photograph was something to be valued, this is certainly no longer the case. When everything, even innocent things, have to be photographed, when every stage of ones existence has to be reported online to others, at almost every hour of the day, when talking to people face to face seems to be diminishing, for me at least, it's just logical that you have a corresponding downward spiral of antisocial behaviour, of kids holed up in their bedrooms, not going out much, conversing with people perhaps on the other side of the globe about who knows what. As with the teenage girls from the UK who went to Syria, the power of this cannot be underestimated or played down.

We are living through increasingly voyeuristic times, with decreasing empathy and regard for others. Selfishness, vanity, ignorance, materialism and greed are now the order of the day - celebrated in fact.

Many of those "rebelling", aligning themselves with the extremes and committing these atrocities - had no sense of belonging in this society, the one they grew up in or joined as migrants from an early age. I would say that some here could identify with that, yet perhaps not feel anywhere near strongly enough to want to harm others or destroy the lives of innocent people.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuangTzu View Post
Guns did not cause these insane men/women to do this, mental disorders-fear-hate-rage-disillusionment did, and perhaps medications, cultures that glorify violence etc... Let's look at the root cause and not the branches.
Fixing mental health is actually similar to gun controls - it's "fire fighting", it may yield short term results, if that. Fixing what's broken with society itself, the gross injustices, lack of proper education, inequality and poverty is the bigger problem - which few are willing to recognise let alone even begin to try to solve.
 
Old 03-18-2019, 12:28 PM   #12
enorbet
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cynwulf View Post
<snip>
Fixing mental health is actually similar to gun controls - it's "fire fighting", it may yield short term results, if that. Fixing what's broken with society itself, the gross injustices, lack of proper education, inequality and poverty is the bigger problem - which few are willing to recognise let alone even begin to try to solve.
.... and perhaps Organized Religion learning and teaching a little Humility.

Last edited by enorbet; 03-18-2019 at 12:30 PM.
 
Old 03-27-2019, 05:39 AM   #13
Pastychomper
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet View Post
Mainstream Christians need to come out and state explicitly that anyone who promotes Fear and Violence is not accepted "into the club" and leaders should watch for early signs and come out explicitly against such thinking and behavior. The same goes for Islam...
...I have yet to see any harsh denouncement of those extremists.
I think you'd be hard pushed to find a mainstream Christian church that doesn't denounce violence and extremism among its members, and given the quotes I've heard from imams in the UK media I strongly suspect the same can be said for Islam. Are things really that different in Virginia? If so then I agree some serious changes are needed.

Regardless of the shooter's motives and influences, my sympathy is with the victims' families and community. Also with any who may have tried to reach out to the attacker in the past: if he was "that way inclined" from early in life, then chances are there are a few people now wondering whether they could have said/done more in the past.
 
Old 03-27-2019, 05:58 AM   #14
AnanthaP
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I saw the video as an attachment on social media and at first thought that it was a "promotion" for a FPS game (perp's head mounted cam and all).

It seems that the Bangladesh cricket team were scheduled to be at the first (smaller) mosque around that time but were delayed.

OK
 
Old 03-27-2019, 12:49 PM   #15
freemedia2018
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hazel View Post
It's a horrible business. A lot of the victims were refugees who thought they'd found a place of safety.

If it's any comfort, recent research has shown that Nazi terrorists of this sort are usually weird from birth rather than being the victims of some kind of radicalisation. They are often the children of broken homes, childhood victims of violence, and with a record of being violent themselves at school. They feel like aliens in normal society and, when they find extreme right wing websites, it's like coming home. At last they have found people like themselves. It's quite a different pattern from Islamist terrorism where you get radicalisation of people who were previously completely normal.

Maybe we could round up these damaged children and fix them somehow before they are old enough to buy guns.
Hear, hear.

I also think it's a very important time for the world to stop conflating the entire political right with the alt-right. I was NEVER a Thatcher fan, and in the States the constitution forbids such meddling, though her concept of denying airtime to terrorists had merit and is worth considering, without the state actually banning coverage (viewers would have to petition the media in millions. It's a lot more likely than going against the first amendment.)

When the right and the alt-right are lumped together in political rhetoric, it not only gives airtime to the alt-right, it exaggerates their size tenfold.

This makes members of the alt-right around the world feel like they are part of something much, much larger and powerful than it is. The more we create a bold line between the right and the alt-right, and reverse that trend, the closer to real size the alt-right will appear-- and the incentive for troubled people to join is diminished. It's no coincidence that the killer looked to America, but America is not (no matter what the media claims) a Nazi country, it is not a half-Nazi country. And it is extremely dangerous and costly to try to make it appear like one for political gain.

Last edited by freemedia2018; 03-27-2019 at 12:51 PM.
 
  


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