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ondoho 01-11-2021 04:49 PM

Capitol Shame
This is NOT about social media being held accountable (I think there's already a thread about that). This is about those right-wing extremist groups and what they've been up to so far, and what might still come.

I listen to the PBS Frontline Dispatch Podcast (*), the latest episode is Chaos at the Capitol (direct link).
It paints a very dark picture, but it's important to stay informed about these - groups and their actions. Recommended, there's also a transcript:

A thing that we've seen since Charlottesville is that the overt white supremacist movement has faded into the background. And this ultra-nationalist movement, which is the sort of broad coalition we saw in D.C. has come to the fore. And that includes people who came from the white supremacist movement, but maybe are no longer quite so obvious about that. That includes anti-Muslim groups, anti-immigrant groups, super hardcore, Second Amendment groups, and super hardcore Trump supporters. And so that's the sort of far right movement that has the energy now. And those people as a general rule, are less worried about hiding their identities than the hardcore neo-nazis and white supremacists.

...we saw members of the Proud Boys which is sort of a ultra-nationalist street fighting outfit that has come to real prominence in the last several months and is sort of leading the vanguard of the violent edge of the Trump movement. So their members were there, we saw members of a group called America First also known as the Groypers, which is another sort of ultra-nationalist outfit that has a podcast and does a lot of very online organizing and is an anti-semitic, borderline white-nationalist outfit, we saw the Oathkeepers, who are a patriot-militia type group who have been talking about civil war for years. And they've been talking about having to overthrow repressive governments for years. We saw QAnon supporters and QAnon is the sort of vast, insane conspiracy that posits that Joe Biden is a member of a sort of satanic cabal of child abusers. And so those were some of the kind of characters that breached the Capitol.
(*) aside: It's sad how they need to beg for donations thrice in 25min, and sell their souls to the app stores. It seems that public broadcasting in the US of NA has been un-funded so thoroughly over time, they're depending on whatever they can get from foundations, private donors etc.... no wonder people perceive it as being biased towards the left.
It's no comparison to public broadcasting in, say, the UK, or Germany, or the Nordics.
It seems there's really no independent media in the USA? Of course independence is always partial, but this is bad.

Ser Olmy 01-11-2021 06:27 PM

I hope you don't believe all that.

Because those who do must think that there are white supremacists and "ultra-nationalists" around every corner, and that must be very scary indeed.

However, there is a group of people in the U.S. that has rioted for 60+ days straight, killed 30 people so far (all black, incidentally) including one man who was burned alive, tried repeatedly to set a federal courthouse building on fire, and caused billions of dollars in property damage by destroying, looting and setting local businesses on fire. They were not called "Oathkeepers" or "Proud Boys".

jbuckley2004 01-11-2021 06:33 PM

Ondoho, I hope you can see that Ser Olmy is very right. When you start with a statement about "right-wing extremeistic groups" (uh, is 'extremistic' even a word in English?) you run the risk of being identified as a left-wing extremist. Is that really what you want?

This is a non-political site. I suggest we all keep it that way.

Ser Olmy 01-11-2021 06:50 PM


Originally Posted by jbuckley2004 (Post 6206567)
This is a non-political site. I suggest we all keep it that way.

I hear you, and I agree.

This is one of very few forum sites that have decent traffic but haven't (yet) been overrun by political activists. It's like an oasis.

michaelk 01-11-2021 07:11 PM

Regardless of your political thinking it is scary.

The main takeaway from 6 Jan was that it was not a random bunch of Trump supporters getting together for a peaceful protest but a well organized riot. The sad part was that retired military, state legislators as well as other police were also involved. What still might come is armed protests at state capitols leading up to inauguration day.

Here is a good article IMHO on what groups were present during the riot.

Ser Olmy 01-11-2021 07:35 PM


Originally Posted by michaelk (Post 6206581)
The main takeaway from 6 Jan was that it was not a random bunch of Trump supporters getting together for a peaceful protest but a well organized riot.

Not sure about that. The footage seemed to show bunch of disorganised fools with no coherent plan of anything.

They didn't really run into the building, it's more like they walked briskly. They even stayed within the ropes. Not very typical of rioters.

I think the guards/police were entirely correct in just letting it play out like it did. By not provoking anybody, the whole thing just fizzled out with minimal damage to people or property. Eventually the guards started to ask people to leave, which they then actually did.

Look at the footage in the media of the damage done. They obviously want to show the absolute worst they can find, but what did we get to see? A broken window, some doors that had been forced open, papers strewn all over the floor of Nancy Pelosi's office, and a bookcase in the hallway that someone had knocked over. That's fairly minor vandalism, not really signs of an attempted coup.

That's not to say that two deaths are in any way acceptable. I hope they find whoever it was who hit that officer. Very regrettable that neither he nor his colleagues realised how serious it was until it was too late. He probably could have been saved if he had been treated in time.

frankbell 01-11-2021 08:31 PM

You all might want to get some facts:

Ser Olmy 01-11-2021 08:38 PM


Originally Posted by frankbell (Post 6206605)
You all might want to get some facts:

That's a good example of propaganda.

By the same metric, I'm sure 95% of Black September protests were peaceful. And at least 98% of all KKK rallies.

Nobody cares if 95% of 10,000 people were just shouting and holding placards, if the rest beat people up and set buildings on fire.

michaelk 01-11-2021 09:07 PM

Probably most were just peaceful MAGA supporters however,

I had read the policeman killed was pepper sprayed and hit in the head with I believe a fire extinguisher.

There were pipe bombs found near the capital building, at the RNC and DNC buildings as well as a vehicle near the capitol building with more bombs and ammunition.

Journalists outside the building were threaten of bodily harm (actual recorded video) and their equipment damaged. There is video/audio recordings of people threatening to kill the VP, speaker Pelosi and other senators.

Recorded video of people trying to break into the chamber shouting death threats.

Recorded video of one policeman running up the steps being threaten by a mob of people.

And of course lots of vandalism.

Many people in the throngs were heavily armed and were in the building.

It was obvious the police were outnumbered and whether they let them in on purpose to see how it would play out or on purpose because they were MAGA supporters will have to wait for the results of the investigation.

Most will only be indicted for vandalism, guns, stealing or entering a restricted building.

And while 95% were just shouting and holding placards most of them believed the riot was justified.

Ser Olmy 01-11-2021 09:57 PM


Originally Posted by michaelk (Post 6206612)
Recorded video of one policeman running up the steps being threaten by a mob of people.

Shameful as the pointless break-in at the Capitol building was, we have to realise this: This incident, like many others before, is being exploited relentlessly by bad-faith actors.

We are being lied to, constantly.

I'll use the event above as an example. Not to make any kind of political point, but to show clearly that the media are partisan actors that actively abuse their position to distort the facts and, in this case, stoke racial tension. And I don't think I need to be political in order to think that's a Very Bad Thing.

This will unfortunately be a long post, but bear with me.

Now let's go to the good old BBC, the publicly-funded bastion of journalistic integrity and impartiality. One of their Washington journalists just wrote a piece about the officer mentioned in the quote.

Let's see what she has to say:

A US Capitol police officer is being called a hero for singlehandedly steering a mob away from the Senate chambers during the deadly riots.
Wow, good on him!

Footage of the officer, identified as Eugene Goodman, shows him just steps ahead of rioters as they chase him up a flight of stairs.

Mr Goodman is then seen glancing toward the Senate entrance before luring the men in the opposite direction.
That's some seriously quick thinking in a lethal situation. And he gets some well-deserved praise:

New York Law School criminal law professor and 20-year veteran of the New York City Police Department Kirk Burkhalter called Mr Goodman's response to rioters "tremendous".

"I don't think there was any type of training that would prepare you for that situation," Mr Burkhalter said.
And why were they chasing after him? Well:

In the video shot by Huffington Post reporter Igor Bobic, Mr Goodman, who is black, is antagonised by the group of Trump supporters - who are all white men.
All white, you say? And Mr. Goodman is black?

And the previously quoted professor is clear in his judgement:

The image of Mr Goodman trailed by a mob - some armed with Confederate flags, others with allusions to the Nazi flag - was extremely disturbing, Mr Burkhalter said.

"Police officer, not a police officer, to see a black man being chased by someone carrying a confederate flag - there is something wrong with that picture. That should never happen again," he said.
Horrible. Just horrible.

Or it would have been, had it been even slightly true. The problem (for the journalist, that is) is that the article contains a link to the actual video footage. I suggest you watch it, it's only 85 seconds long.

Back? OK, so now you've seen this:

In the beginning, a rowdy group of people are standing in the hall shouting as the journalist with the camera turns the corner.

The officer is standing alone in the doorway. The crowd keeps its distance and does not advance on him. Words are exchanged, but no threats or slurs can be heard.

Officer Goodman then retreats to the stairs and picks up his radio, which was on the floor. A small group of 3-4 men follow him at a distance. No-one is running. When he stops, they stop. They are not armed. They are not acting aggressively towards him. Also, there's no-one there who looks like a nazi. I can't see any "allusions to the Nazi flag" either, but then I don't really know what such a thing would look like.

The officer walks/runs quickly up the first flight of stairs. The group eventually follows. The man in front runs when officer Goodman runs, but stops immediately when the officer stops and turns. He's the only one close to the officer, and even he is several feet away.

The same happens at the next flight of stairs. At the top, officer Goodman confronts the man in front, and even pushes him. He does not respond to this at all. His posture is completely relaxed, arms hanging down by his side.

He follows the officer as the latter walks down a hallway and into another room. Here, the small group apparently decides to make their stand. Literally: They just stand there and refuse to move. There are several other officers in the room, all telling the group to leave, which they in turn refuse. No-one is violent or even aggressive.

The group may consist of just white, young men; it's a bit hard to tell due to some wearing hoodies and beanies, and some having beards. Some of them could very well be hispanic for all I know.

Now tell me, what happened to the racist mob chasing after a black police officer? Where's the white supremacy rioters? The life-threatening situation?

Why would the journalist twist the facts to such an extreme degree and turn this into something violent and explicitly racial?

Oh, and she also wrote this:

Five people, including a police officer, died as a result of the riots.
No, BBC, that's not true at all. Three of them were Trump supporters who had medical emergencies prior to the event, and sadly died.

But I guess "only" two dead, one of which was an unarmed woman shot through a closed door by a police officer, doesn't really qualify as a "deadly riot".

michaelk 01-11-2021 10:25 PM

I did not post anything about a racist mob. I admit that particular event might of been exaggerated by the media but I can not read the officer's mind.

And that is your entire argument that what happened was no big deal.

I did not post anything about a deadly riot. I guess the people that were shouting hang Mike Pence were just trying to scare the media or VP. Lucky, we will never know what might of happened if the peaceful protesters entered the chambers with everyone still inside.

I am sure the FBI is taking this very seriously.

Ser Olmy 01-11-2021 10:54 PM


Originally Posted by michaelk (Post 6206626)
And that is your entire argument that what happened was no big deal.

That's an extremely uncharitable interpretation of what I wrote.

Originally Posted by michaelk (Post 6206626)
I did not post anything about a deadly riot.

I never meant to accuse you of anything. Everything you wrote has indeed been reported in the media more or less exactly as you said.

The problem is, the majority of what is being reported is either taken out of context, grossly misrepresented, or straight-up fabrications (as in this case).

For instance, we've all heard that the Democrats want to impeach Trump for inciting a riot. He supposedly did this in a tweet; that's the exact accusation.

Have we seen this tweet? Have we seen anyone in media quoting it? No, we haven't. And now that the account is banned, we can't see for ourselves.

Except we can, because archives exist. And guess what: Donald Trump did indeed call for his supporters to show their support in DC, but he also explicitly emphasized the importance of all demonstrations being entirely peaceful. He was very clear about that.

So... why is an almost unison media insisting that he was inciting or supporting violence? I mean, this is a matter of examining simple facts, and the accusation just isn't true.

I refuse to believe that the majority of the journalistic class in the U.S. are incapable of checking their sources. Unfortunately, that leaves only one other explanation.

frankbell 01-11-2021 11:11 PM

Oh, my. The Fox News Bubble is a very real thing.

I'm a Southern boy. I went to segregated schools. I am done with this thread.

Ser Olmy 01-11-2021 11:16 PM


Originally Posted by frankbell (Post 6206637)
Oh, my. The Fox News Bubble is a very real thing.

I'm a Southern boy. I went to segregated schools. I am done with this thread.

I've never watched U.S. cable news myself, as I don't live in the U.S.

I would suggest steering clear of overly partisan media, especially those that pretend to be neutral. I don't know what options that would leave in the U.S.

michaelk 01-12-2021 12:05 AM

It depends if you believe in dog whistles...

I don't tweet and therefore do not know if there was anything about peaceful. I have read that he tweeted something like come to DC Jan 6 it will be wild.

Jan 4 Rally

"If the liberal Democrats take the Senate and the White House — and they’re not taking this White House — we’re going to fight like hell, I’ll tell you right now," Trump said.

Senator Ted Cruz also at the Georgia rally mentions 1776 as a battle cry to storm the capitol building.

Jan 6 rally

"We’re going to take it back," Trump said.

“we’re going to take what they did to us on Nov. 3. We’re going to take it back.” and “we’re going to walk down to the Capitol

You have to show strength, and you have to be strong.”

Rudy Giuliani, "Let’s have trial by combat"

And some other recent quotes

General Mike Flynn, “This is as serious a constitutional crisis as our nation has ever faced. We will only be the beacon of hope for the world if we are willing to stand with courage and integrity & defend our republic,”

Sidney Powell, “This is essentially a new American revolution and anyone who wants this country to remain free needs to step up right now.”

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