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Old 05-29-2024, 06:43 PM   #1
rkelsen
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Can Trump Really Slam the Brakes on Electric Vehicles?


"He has vowed to shred President Biden’s E.V. policies and has threatened that “You won’t be able to sell those cars.”"

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/05/27/c...-vehicles.html

I wonder if he has run this idea past his vocal advocate Mr. Musk? #LeopardsAteMyFace

Thoughts?
 
Old 05-29-2024, 07:17 PM   #2
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I think it is yet another empty promise like The Wall and in the case of EVs, far too late. Even if in the wildest imagination electric cars and trucks can be made difficult to sell, in some urban and suburban environments the demand for electric bicycles and scooters will only grow and developments in the technology will over time eclipse any alternative, especially fossil fuel. Like it or not, the future is electric... and that's before we hit 3C average global temperature rise and that's not far off at all. We are already very close to 1.5C that was predicted and warned for 2050.
 
Old 05-29-2024, 07:36 PM   #3
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One question, how is electricity produced and used to charge up batteries besides wind, solar, and ocean power?
Why by fossil fuels of course! Fossil fuel use for electricity or vehicles will not go away anytime soon I think.
 
Old 05-29-2024, 08:02 PM   #4
enorbet
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That is actually true... for now, if we disregard the economy of scale. Without even discussing nuclear power for electrical power generation, and just considering the "Well to Wheel" numbers, here are some to consider.

The internal combustion engine technology became top dog around 1910-1920. So along with and including massive corporate welfare subsidies to get the selling prices down so that the common man could afford a few gallons of gasoline and get reasonable power output for his 10 cents per gallon, in 1910 internal combustion engines were roughly 1% efficient. You'd need at least 10-30 cubic inches of cylinder to achieve 1 horsepower (HP). In over 100 years of monopolistic development, that efficiency number has increased to roughly 25% overall and it is not uncommon to achieve 1HP, actually a fantastic improvement.

Absent 100+ years of aggressive development, electric motors are only slightly improved in that period but even in 1910 were capable of 35-40% efficiency. In 2024, electric motors are roughly 80% efficient. So while internal combustion improved by substantially more than a factor of 10 (25x), electric only doubled.

Because of the extreme emphasis on fossil fuel the WTW efficiency is still currently almost in favor of internal combustion but the raw base efficiency is a fact that cannot be ignored or denied. Given the same development incentives and economies of scale electric MUST win out. It will be cheaper AND produce more power/dollar with fewer negative side effects (not to mention fewer moving parts to wear out) than internal combustion even has the potential to deliver, and that's just a Natural Fact..
 
Old 05-29-2024, 08:02 PM   #5
enorbet
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Man I hope this gets fixed soon

Last edited by enorbet; 05-29-2024 at 08:16 PM. Reason: duplicate
 
Old 05-29-2024, 08:04 PM   #6
wpeckham
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shortarcflyer View Post
One question, how is electricity produced and used to charge up batteries besides wind, solar, and ocean power?
Why by fossil fuels of course! Fossil fuel use for electricity or vehicles will not go away anytime soon I think.
In the last 12 months about 50% of the electric energy generated was form Green sources or Nuclear. Fossil fuels power is on the way out. California is experiencing a power glut part of the time, where they generate more form green sources than the total power needed for the entire state! We are far from using 100% green power in the USA, but we are getting there.

Right now 65% of the drivers in the USA live within 2 miles of a charging station, and we have only BEGUN rolling those out! Most EV drivers opt to install a fast charger at their house using solar power (the rest use MAINS power either directly via a garage wall plug or via a charging station).

Fossil power IS going away.
 
Old 05-29-2024, 08:12 PM   #7
shortarcflyer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wpeckham View Post

Fossil power IS going away.
Maybe in your area it is but not in my area any time soon it appears. EV vehicles sitting on the dealer lots and not moving. General area population not interested/dont want them. Since the conception and up to about 2 weeks ago, I have seen only 5 in use on the roads in my area and of those 5, 2 were parked and plugged in being charged.
 
Old 05-29-2024, 08:15 PM   #8
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We will see.
 
Old 05-29-2024, 10:14 PM   #9
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I really try to stay out of politics but by legal definition the president shouldn't be able to do anything beyond executive orders. Seeing how he couldn't get his own party in line when he was in office, he can hoot and holler all day long. He will end up exactly like last time. Pissed at everyone, nothing to show for it, and probably more criminal charges.

For the record I don't take sides and I want that clear. Whether all this stuff is political persecution I don't know, none of us really know for sure. I do know that the man has a horrifying history in New York. I can't be convinced he isn't as bad as most say when the paper trail goes back years with his legal wranglings and scorched earth trail behind him. Politics is meaningless to me. The man has exactly 0 redeeming qualities as a human being. I don't understand why people put their faith in politicians, much less one with his history and record pre politics.
 
Old 05-30-2024, 12:05 AM   #10
rkelsen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmgibson1981 View Post
I don't understand why people put their faith in politicians
This. This. 1000x this.

Do people really have that little meaning in their lives?

Back on topic, "I'll kill your business, but let me make up for it:" https://finance.yahoo.com/video/trum...203216491.html
 
Old 05-30-2024, 08:04 AM   #11
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"Clean electric vehicles" are actually powered by coal. We do not yet possess the safe battery technology to make it work, and we also do not possess enough electrical generating capacity to move the entire energy requirement to another form of energy production.

The very San Diego battery fire should be a sober reminder. The best electrical-storage technology that we now have relies upon elemental lithium, which burns explosively upon exposure to air. You can't put the fire out with water: you have to cut off the air.

You can build a very(!) powerful incendiary bomb by dumping a lot of batteries into a section of PVC pipe. Seal the pipe at both ends, then drill a hole and position a nail into that hole so that it will puncture one of the batteries when you hit it with a hammer. This will start the "unquenchable fire" which will then spread to all the other batteries.

YouTube is chock-full of videos where someone innocently decided to "see what happens."
 
Old 05-30-2024, 10:36 AM   #12
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What gets me is, besides the batteries being dangerous, is that they are part of the structure of cars, so after a crash, will have to be disposed of, & the driver/person will then have to buy a new car including a new battery!
 
Old 05-30-2024, 11:06 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fatmac View Post
What gets me is, besides the batteries being dangerous, is that they are part of the structure of cars, so after a crash, will have to be disposed of, & the driver/person will then have to buy a new car including a new battery!
Whoever decided to do it like that is an idiot! The logical way to deal with the battery charging problem is to have standard exchangeable batteries; when your battery is low, you just pull up at a service station, they remove the battery and replace it with a fully charged one. Then off you go again. The battery you left behind is plugged in to recharge it, and someone else gets it later. That way the potentially dangerous charging stage can be done professionally in a fireproofed area.

Other things that need to be changed imho:
1) We need safer and lighter batteries. With present technology, the batteries are so heavy that a lot of the power generated is used to lug the battery itself around rather than the passengers. And it's hell on the tyres.
2) We need a battery technology that doesn't depend on rare metals mined by child slave labour.
3) We really should be investigating fuel cell technology to run electric engines rather than using a battery. A car powered by a fuel cell would be quite similar to a present-day self-charging hybrid, so a lot of the technology is already in use.
4) We have to find a way to manufacture these vehicals more cheaply. The first electric cars were launched in an era of cheap electricity, so people were willing to pay more upfront in exchange for much lower running costs. Now that electricity is more expensive, only the rich can afford the present-day electric cars and they already have them.

Last edited by hazel; 05-30-2024 at 11:07 AM.
 
Old 05-30-2024, 12:08 PM   #14
wpeckham
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sundialsvcs View Post
"Clean electric vehicles" are actually powered by coal. We do not yet possess the safe battery technology to make it work, and we also do not possess enough electrical generating capacity to move the entire energy requirement to another form of energy production.

The very San Diego battery fire should be a sober reminder. The best electrical-storage technology that we now have relies upon elemental lithium, which burns explosively upon exposure to air. You can't put the fire out with water: you have to cut off the air.

You can build a very(!) powerful incendiary bomb by dumping a lot of batteries into a section of PVC pipe. Seal the pipe at both ends, then drill a hole and position a nail into that hole so that it will puncture one of the batteries when you hit it with a hammer. This will start the "unquenchable fire" which will then spread to all the other batteries.

YouTube is chock-full of videos where someone innocently decided to "see what happens."
Electric vehicles (with the exception of some Tesla models) are safer than IC vehicles (that explode multiple times per revolution!). Just do not trust the "self driving" feature, and never drive it into a PVC pipe.

https://news.slashdot.org/story/24/0...tm_medium=feed Makes some nice reading. More and more US power is from wind and solar, and wave at the coastlines. Coal is the exciting new technology of the 1800s, and we should have outgrown it by now. And soon, we will. Green energy is cheaper, deploys faster, and can be used wither for grid power or local energy needs. Fossil fuels are dangerous, expensive, slow to deploy, and are destroying the climate and causing massive extinctions that will include OUR extinction if we drive it far enough.

We WILL grow up, or die trying.

As for Lithium and Cobalt, we now have five alternate chemistries (that I know about, there may be others) that require far less rare earths or none at all and are entering production phases for different purposes. Lithium is not a stopper, and may soon be a non-factor.

Last edited by wpeckham; 05-30-2024 at 12:12 PM.
 
Old 05-30-2024, 03:03 PM   #15
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Trump didn't stop EV's when he was in office so why would he this time?

Would he give $50K each to jerks that don't think they have to repay student loans?
 
  


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