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Old 02-10-2021, 09:15 AM   #1
business_kid
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Brexit Baloney


This promises to be an interesting topic this year, and so, as a local observer, I'm opening a thread on it. I hope people will get the odd wry smile out of it, if nothing else.

The opening situation: As a result of the 1998 Agreement that ended 30 years of terrorism, the Republic Of Ireland (ROI) normally just called Ireland must have an open border with Northern Ireland, aka North of Ireland (NOI). As a result of partition in 1921, the NOI is part of Britain. The NOI population is split 50/50 fierce Republican and fierce 'Loyalists' with firm attachment to the ROI or UK respectively. There a few moderates in there actually, but they never get elected.

As a result of the 1998 Agreement, the ROI & NOI must be joined at the hip. But the Loyalists need the NOI to be joined to the UK at the hip. So as long as they all stand or sit together, everything's fine. But Brexit … that's where the fun comes in.

Some nonsense so far.
  • The EU set up customs points in Belfast to monitor exports of Astrazeneca vaccine and Loyalists got active, because there can't be a border down the Irish sea.
  • The situation of an 'English' food shop in Belgium was covered. It's shelves are bare. It normally has a 40ft container per week over from England, full of a shopping list full of items. But now, after Brexit, every item on the shopping list requires separate customs declaration forms, so instead of one set of papers for the truck, there's perhaps 100 sets of paperwork to be completed.
  • There's an exploitable hole in the system here. The Brexit deal has the NOI keeping EU rules. But the NOI<-->ROI border is open (and unsealable anyhow). So goods from UK to NOI get charged duty, refundable if the goods stay in NOI. So a NOI business doing packaging or wholesaling and being "inventive" with countries of origin is poised to exploit any price differences that arise.
  • Secondhand Cars coming into ROI from the UK have 10% duty & 23.5% VAT on them here, but they're free in NOI. Watch that space.
 
Old 02-10-2021, 09:52 AM   #2
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Biden will take care of your irish unity and will monitore it. Dont panic. Small weird things will happens but defacto the "United Ireland" is in the EU. UK to swallow this.
And UK is like Russia Usbekistan Kasachstan Nepal Saudi-Arabia .. for EU: taxes, controls.. (they cannot do something else bcause the EU has contacts with other countries with a "not better" clause.. it means if UK receive better clause, the EU must use the "better" clause to several other contracts.. and they cannot).
However, this forum dont care about Ireland Saudi-Arabia Germany Kasachstan Usbekistan UK.. no border. Good thing.
 
Old 02-10-2021, 01:44 PM   #3
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It'll get worse before it gets better, you mark my words!

I was going to buy goods from Eire, until I realised we don't know how much something will cost now, so no sale!

We originally joined a common market, & that's where we should have returned to, we didn't vote too be ruled by EU Foreigners.

Last edited by fatmac; 02-10-2021 at 01:47 PM.
 
Old 02-10-2021, 03:33 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by fatmac View Post
It'll get worse before it gets better, you mark my words!

I was going to buy goods from Eire, until I realised we don't know how much something will cost now, so no sale!

We originally joined a common market, & that's where we should have returned to, we didn't vote too be ruled by EU Foreigners.
Yes, it will get worse… I don't know about it getting better though.

And the majority of you voted yourself out of the common market, and made life awkward for the Scots and us too. And you still will have foreigners telling you what to do if you want to trade with them. But all this is very serious for what I hoped would be a light hearted thread. Would you buy a secondhand car from Boris Johnson?
 
Old 02-11-2021, 12:47 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by business_kid View Post
Would you buy a secondhand car from Boris Johnson?
I've never bought a second-hand car, so I can't say. But (if you're old enough), would you have bought one from Charles Haughey?
 
Old 02-12-2021, 05:13 AM   #6
business_kid
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For those old enough to remember, the question was first asked about Richard Nixon, beside a photo showing his '5 o'clock shadow.'

I buy all secondhand cars, and to buy new imho is a waste of money. Because once you put your backside in a car, it loses value significantly. If you own a company, there's an accounting & sales arguments for buying new.

I definitely wouldn't buy private cars from either Haughey or BJ, but the point is moot as they probably both had State cars.
 
Old 02-12-2021, 05:48 AM   #7
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Oh, my post wasn't really meant as a rant, just that we just don't know where we are right now....

We were offered a vote on whether to join a Common Market, but the politicians got us enmeshed in EU beurocracy without asking us, & that's where the problem lies, or did...

Would I buy a secondhand car from either of them?
No - I haven't driven a motor vehicle since 1980, can't see any reason to start again now....
 
Old 02-12-2021, 06:11 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fatmac View Post
We originally joined a common market, & that's where we should have returned to, we didn't vote too be ruled by EU Foreigners.
Exactly. If it had stayed a common market, I doubt if there would ever have been a Brexit movement, let alone a second referendum.
Quote:
Originally Posted by business_kid View Post
And you still will have foreigners telling you what to do if you want to trade with them.
Of course! That's how international trade works. Every country has the right to lay down rules for imports. If you want to sell something in France, it has to conform with French rules (which means EU rules in practice). But that is not at all the same thing as the EU "level playing field" which required everything made in the UK to conform to EU rules, whether it was intended for export to Europe or for internal consumption or for export elsewhere. And since only a minority of what we produce actually goes into the EU, that was a burden we can well do without.

Most of the present problems are due to the fact that the EU negotiating team had to cave in on all their red lines when it came to the level playing field and their partial victory on fisheries was not enough to soothe their ruffled feathers. So they are now trying to get revenge by all manner of petty acts, which would be funny if the whole thing weren't so sad.

Last edited by hazel; 02-12-2021 at 10:27 AM.
 
Old 02-12-2021, 09:39 AM   #9
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The Reality check done here for a 'no-deal' scenario was done. EU: -€500 Million p.a. & some jobs lost; GB: -€1.3 billion p.a. & more jobs lost. I think something similar there happened, so you guys wanted a deal. You Government cut a deal. I'd advise getting used to it.

I don't see the Fisheries as any huge victory, as if they're landed in the UK, they have to be exported to the EU anyhow which is the main market for fish. They run the danger of goingoff while paperwork is sorted. I've heard of British trawlers landing their catches in Denmark to get them into Middle Europe faster. There may be some loophole for companies not exporting to the EU/NOI at all workable in the future.

Here's the thing though. Even if at some point in the future, trade is so low with the EU that the UK want to get out of that Brexit agreement, the UK can't. Because the UK has undertaken to have NOI keep EU rules, and the UK has undertaken to have Free trade with NOI. And the Sky will cave in (diplomatically) in the event of there ever being a NOI<-->EU(=Republic of Ireland border on the NOI<-->EU(=Republic of Ireland) border. Of course I don't think people saw that coming.

And any duty imposed opens an exploitable loophole. For instance, 2nd hand cars UK --> ROI pay 10% duty & Irish VAT at point of entry. 2nd hand cars UK--> NOI pay neither. But I can drive up to NOI, buy there, drive South and avoid the import duty and VAT altogether. I do have to pay a registration tax to get an Irish reg, but I'd pay that anyhow.
 
Old 02-18-2021, 06:33 AM   #10
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Without abolishing FIAT/debt and interest based currency, the slavery will continue.
But look at it this way. If you all try and get out of it, then at least Britain won't declare war on you for it :P
 
Old 02-18-2021, 12:08 PM   #11
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We voted to leave a would-be superstate committed to "ever-greater union" (their words). If there's a financial cost, I can live with it. Politics is about more than money — why else did Ireland leave the UK? You wanted (reasonably) your independence and so do we.
 
Old 02-18-2021, 12:40 PM   #12
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My position entirely. One of the odd things about the referendum campaign was that the Remain camp didn't offer a single positive reason for staying in the EU, only threats of the awful things that would happen to us if we left. It's not surprising that a lot of people felt alienated from a project that seemed to offer so little real benefit.

Last edited by hazel; 02-18-2021 at 12:41 PM.
 
Old 02-18-2021, 02:09 PM   #13
business_kid
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Originally Posted by DavidMcCann View Post
We voted to leave a would-be superstate committed to "ever-greater union" (their words). If there's a financial cost, I can live with it. Politics is about more than money — why else did Ireland leave the UK? You wanted (reasonably) your independence and so do we.
You're asking me? I dunno, I don't hold political views. From a historical perspective, people resented the Landlord/Tenant thing here, where 20,000 acres of good farming land would be given to some bloke who didn't even visit here. Then his middlemen would rent it out in handkerchief size plots and keep people in abject poverty. There was a famine here when potatoes (the only viable crop really) kept getting blight and millions died, while other millions emigrated. Nobody in Government cared. People were told they should have planted corn. All the great forests here went into building the English navy too. I think it was things like that that caused people to get that notion that we could do other stuff if we had the running of it. But you'd have to ask them (the patriots) to be sure, and they're dead.

EDIT: The Penal Laws from Cromwell's time didn't help. A Catholic wasn't allowed to own land, to vote, or really to exist outside Connaught (one of the 4 provinces). That lasted 150-200 years.

Last edited by business_kid; 02-18-2021 at 02:14 PM.
 
Old 02-19-2021, 01:06 PM   #14
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Off topic, but don't they teach you any history in Irish schools? The movement for independence only replaced that for home rule at the beginning of the last century, long after the penal laws (repealed 1798), the famine (1840s), and the settlement of the landlord problem (completed by 1903). The IRB and Sinn Féin had very limited support — when a home ruler resigned his parliamentary seat and stood for Sinn Féin in 1908, he lost very heavily. It was the executions of 1916 that changed the public mood.
 
Old 02-20-2021, 05:15 AM   #15
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/Just answering that. If you want this discussion, let's do it on PM.

In Irish schools, they taught a very twisted and biased version of Irish history. In my case I was taught the subject by a teacher so bad he made you forget what you already knew, instead of learning stuff. I learned from my Dad, who lost his speech when I was 12.

There were continual moves towards independence, but different things were tried. Home rule was one. 1798 was the date of a rising by Theobald Wolfe Tone, and nothing was repealed.. There was another impractical attempt by Robert Emmet in 1801 and his went down as the worst rising in history, mitigated only by his eloquent speech from the dock. It was Daniel O'Connell in 1829 who brought about Catholic Emancipation (= repeal of Penal Laws) in 1829.

'The famine' wasn't actually a famine. It was successive years of severe potato blight. Wheat, corn and other cereals were being exported in quantity from Ireland while people starved. Small farmers raised these as paid them as 'rent' each year; they had the potato crop to feed themselves, but that crop failed. My great grandfather (probably in 1847) sold his harvest but didn't pay his rent, and had to flee Kerry by night with his family and go over mountains. He fled to Cork city, where my father was born. Support for Independence varied. It would be foolish indeed to vote for Sinn Féin, because votes were not secret, only landowners (= English) could vote. The South of Ireland (=Cork and Southern counties) was largely pro IRB/IRA, the NOI was mainly against, and local hotspots existed. Do you know where this Sinn Féiner stood for Parliament? It does depend on Geography.

The 1916 rising was a few poets and dreamers, but the harsh British over-reaction (they sent a gunboat up the Liffey, to wreck and burn the whole city centre) and the executions turned people all right. There are as many versions of 1916-1921 as there are storytellers. If you want to pursue this, send me a PM.
 
  


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