LinuxQuestions.org
Review your favorite Linux distribution.
Go Back   LinuxQuestions.org > Forums > Non-*NIX Forums > General
User Name
Password
General This forum is for non-technical general discussion which can include both Linux and non-Linux topics. Have fun!

Notices


Reply
  Search this Thread
Old 06-28-2016, 02:38 PM   #121
alberich
Member
 
Registered: Apr 2016
Location: Bavaria
Distribution: Slackware
Posts: 140

Rep: Reputation: Disabled

The EU is not only a trade organization.

The EU came from the cooperation in steel and coal. The aim was to work in military-relevant stuff like coal and steel together to generate trust - trust as the currency that was the most absent, valuable and needed after successions of gross european wars. Later came the nuclear energy cooperation likewise.

Main aim was to build up Europe and secure it from new wars by economical interconnection. Also the fraternities of towns throughout Europe and school exchanges were a means! I was in Britan, Nottingham, thrice as a pupil (I also learned french in school). How wise to device and do these things! You are not easily letting yourself been told to hate and shoot people you know personally and liked.

The EU is a harmonised market that eliminates inefficiencies for everyone. And that does work with the borders, possibility of transportation. Surely there are trade-offs that need to be adressed and negotiated regularely. Surely everybody will pull to try to secure advantages.

The EU is union of values. It consists of national democracies and rituals for community of those nations.

The EU also collaborates for example in education. But in many things as foreign policies.

Now what is the most important and greatest added value of the EU, the common market? I do not think so! It's to have lived a life in peace until now and know nothing else.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sundialsvcs View Post
No country should see itself as 'just one country out of many' ruled by far-away businessmen and bureaucrats under the auspices of a 'trade treaty.' Human culture is not, and never has been, and, I think, never should be, 'homogeneous.'

... EU went wildly out-of-control with 'everything is ruled from Brussels.'
I think it is normal to feel close to your country. But for an educated and enlightened person it is vital to understand that you are part in a community and your country is just a minority in the community of peples and nations. It is vital to read and travel to broaden your narrow horizon to realise that there are other cultures - created equal. The fact of different ways of thinking and living brightens and enriches a person. Someone who thinks that his local way of life is the ultimate culture is an unknowing hillbilly.

The EU has not tried to assimilate and destroy national identities. Who says that does something vicous and false in my view and I hope it will return to him.

And I expect of the EU to give nothing as a present to the US - except some frienship and help. But in trade it is quid pro quo. Anyway I think it is unsustainable to transport many goods over the atlantic. You eat your cheese, we eat ours, in my opinion.

The EU was, is, will be something good. When we are saturated with peace and good, then we will bore ourselves. Then we will drift apart, see the foreign as enemy again and seeking our local egoisms. And history will repeat. I think the process is already started, when I see all the 'völkisch' thinking in each and every corner.

Last edited by alberich; 06-28-2016 at 03:10 PM.
 
Old 06-28-2016, 06:40 PM   #122
sundialsvcs
LQ Guru
 
Registered: Feb 2004
Location: SE Tennessee, USA
Distribution: Gentoo, LFS
Posts: 9,078

Original Poster
Blog Entries: 4

Rep: Reputation: 3187Reputation: 3187Reputation: 3187Reputation: 3187Reputation: 3187Reputation: 3187Reputation: 3187Reputation: 3187Reputation: 3187Reputation: 3187Reputation: 3187
Although I freely admit that the USA "is most-certainly not" in the same situation as Europe, I do observe several parallels that I do think are relevant to the present European discussion . . .
  1. The concept of "United States" is, to me, "eerily similar" to the EU apparent-ideal of "united countries." Today in the US, even though individual States labor to create "State Laws," any of those Laws can be summarily stomped-on by the 550-odd people in Washington, DC, or(!) overruled by as few as five (four?) people on the US Supreme Court. There is zero "effective autonomy" among any of the fifty States. (Does Europe actually want that?)
  2. "The international Utopians" have been equally busy, everywhere on the Planet. In Europe, they have focused their attentions on "diktats from Brussels," this being "the European 'Washington, DC.'" Meanwhile, in the actual "Washington, DC," they have been plotting, in TOP SECRET secrecy, to impose "Trade Treaties" that would ... in the exact(!) same manner ... wipe-away(!) the Laws of the Land (and even its Constitution ...) "all in the name of 'Holy Commerce ... according to (just) them.'"
"Yeah. Uh huh. It's about time ..."

"Gentlepeople, on both sides of the Atlantic, and the Pacific(!), we are being swindled(!) out of our National Birthrights, by Utopians who have made Grand Promises™ upon which they simply cannot deliver.

Their "Utopian Vision of Tommorrow" is (IMHO ...) neither correct nor (most importantly ...) sustainable. And their "Corporate Profits-driven" litmus-test, no matter how loudly they speak of its "necessity," is not anything that (IMHO!) can actually be expected to survive any sort of real adversity.

In our business, we strive to create "robust, fault-tolerant(!), realistic" systems for our employers and clients ...

... but (IMHO!! !!) "this Utopia" does not, and cannot, "cut the mustard."

And, I think, it's high-time that ordinary people began to say so. Because, "these few-hundred(!!) businessmen" are tampering with "billions(!) of 'ordinary' people's lives."

("Pick any 'pond.'" Truth is, we're all(!) in this thing, together. "The businessmen(!) who have commanded far too-much attention, for far too long, don't really give a damn "what country we're in!")
Quote:
"Country?" ... oh, how cute... Let's just cross-ruff 'every Country on earth,' one against the other, slip away with the cash, and leave each 'Country's' (snicker ...) politicians to sort it all out ..."
Uh, huh. I am not being "a crude [American] conspiracy theorist" in saying that 'human nature' can be "that craven," and "that crass."

"Yes, international business is important." But, we should never "give away our National laws, identity, and Sovereignty," in support of it! Nor do we actually need to.

Europe needs to see this. America needs to see this. Japan and China also need to see this.

Last edited by sundialsvcs; 06-28-2016 at 06:49 PM.
 
Old 06-28-2016, 07:46 PM   #123
alberich
Member
 
Registered: Apr 2016
Location: Bavaria
Distribution: Slackware
Posts: 140

Rep: Reputation: Disabled
I support that the economic sphere must be controlled by our elected representatives, or their super-commissions. And not the other way round.

Europe fails at constructing a transparent and publically accepted institution above nations, they fail making themselves publically plausible. And that is most severe now. Though I loathe the 'need in itself' to sell oneself (that is an success factor, it would not be enough to do useful stuff). The thought of supra-national institution itself is neither strange, nor useless. I think the concept of designing and administrating common ground, basic justice and rules supra-nationally seems self-evident.

Something like Interpol. Or in science and foreign policies there can only and must be permanently established institutions.

Why? Because of globalisation, global transport, internet. We are not segregated by 2 weeks ship voyage anymore. When something happens we don't write letters for three months anymore and in the mean-time issues settle themselves.

If indeed the European Union became something like the FIFA. An intransparent corrupt mob, that would be terrible.

So they must be ultra-transparent. Any falsehood, corruption, hiddenlobbying, and personal hidden aggendas must be rooted out, eradicated without remorse. But don't forget that already two dozens of national elites are scrutinising permanently what the EU does.

Regionalisation, devolution and subsidarisation must be made use of, and are also already for most part. But then we needn't carry every banana across the globe and exhaust CO2 excessively. What is/can be made locally should be!

We need't globalise so that managers and concerns manic for growth and money are satisfied.

Nevertheless a union of values, policies, justice, peace, fraternity, common foreign affairs, education and research, trade and business, finances, customer protection, health care, including permanent bodies makes plain sense.

PS: By the way, if the USA collapsed, the Federal layer vanished: you would be marginalised globally. You would never ever want that! You would be only busy with each other.

Do you know what the fasces mean, that Lincoln rests his arms on in the memorial? https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...oln_statue.jpg
They became a symbol for fascism and I think it is no coincidence that this is a warning to reflect how to build a community. Nevertheless the original sense is true: 'single we are weak, but together we are strong'.

Last edited by alberich; 06-28-2016 at 08:46 PM.
 
Old 06-29-2016, 03:20 AM   #124
beachboy2
Senior Member
 
Registered: Jan 2007
Location: Wild West Wales, UK
Distribution: Linux Mint 20 MATE, MX-19.3, antiX, EndeavourOS
Posts: 3,287
Blog Entries: 17

Rep: Reputation: 1232Reputation: 1232Reputation: 1232Reputation: 1232Reputation: 1232Reputation: 1232Reputation: 1232Reputation: 1232Reputation: 1232
alberich,

Your high ideals are to be applauded. People like you should be employed by OLAF (see below), the EU's anti-fraud team.

Quote:
Nevertheless a union of values, policies, justice, peace, fraternity, common foreign affairs, education and research, trade and business, finances, customer protection, health care, including permanent bodies makes plain sense.
I agree with you.

The general idea is a fine and noble one, but unfortunately in reality the EU is a total mess and member states will demand reforms.

Here is just one example of large-scale fraud in the EU. (See attached scan).

For further information, please read the OLAF Report 2015:

http://ec.europa.eu/anti-fraud/sites...rt_2015_en.pdf

Quote:
So they must be ultra-transparent. Any falsehood, corruption, hidden lobbying, and personal hidden agendas must be rooted out, eradicated without remorse. But don't forget that already two dozens of national elites are scrutinising permanently what the EU does.
Corrupt EU staff, identified by OLAF, have not even been disciplined, let alone immediately sacked and prosecuted for fraud.

Why do you think that is?

Because corruption does not exist in the EU according to Jean-Claude Juncker etc and it would be most unfortunate to have the full glare of publicity on a long string of public prosecutions.

Let's keep everything in house, so we don't frighten somebody and draw attention to this corrupt organisation.

Here is a comment from German MEP Inge Grassle on EU fraud:

……...the member states are themselves part of the problem.

We have member states which actively block Olaf and have no interest in really having fraud cases detected.
At the moment, I'm sorry to say only 7% of cases [highlighted by Olaf] are picked up by the member states. This means that 93% of cases are thrown in the paper basket.

Therefore we have an investigation unit which is not really effective because after the investigation nothing happens. This means we tolerate criminality. I think that this is really bad news.



Quote:
If indeed the European Union became something like the FIFA, a non-transparent corrupt mob, that would be terrible.
That is a very good analogy.

Became something like FIFA?

It is already something like FIFA!!

Please remove the blinkers from your eyes (and then apply to join OLAF).
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	EU_fraud.jpg
Views:	16
Size:	243.2 KB
ID:	22246  

Last edited by beachboy2; 06-29-2016 at 03:24 AM.
 
Old 06-29-2016, 04:25 AM   #125
alberich
Member
 
Registered: Apr 2016
Location: Bavaria
Distribution: Slackware
Posts: 140

Rep: Reputation: Disabled
Please be aware that the statement from Inge Grassel is from 2010.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/mobile/world-europe-11848048

Notice also what the woman says: 'We have member states which actively block Olaf and have no interest in really having fraud cases detected.' This means there were severe deficiencies in the member states themselves who didn't persecute. From what she says this seemed to be not a problem on EU level. Like you are trying to set EU up for. Additionally consider that much of this fraud is commited locally to steal money from the EU, not the other way round.

In the linked Olaf Report 2015 on page 28 is written that around half of cases submitted from Olaf to national jurisdictional authorities recently lead to indictments over a seven year period.

I must conclude that while you mention valuable information, nontheless you are (in my view partially with blinkers yourself) simply agitating against the EU.

Last edited by alberich; 06-29-2016 at 04:51 AM.
 
Old 06-29-2016, 06:27 AM   #126
beachboy2
Senior Member
 
Registered: Jan 2007
Location: Wild West Wales, UK
Distribution: Linux Mint 20 MATE, MX-19.3, antiX, EndeavourOS
Posts: 3,287
Blog Entries: 17

Rep: Reputation: 1232Reputation: 1232Reputation: 1232Reputation: 1232Reputation: 1232Reputation: 1232Reputation: 1232Reputation: 1232Reputation: 1232
Quote:
I must conclude that while you mention valuable information, nontheless you are (in my view partially with blinkers yourself) simply agitating against the EU.
I mistakenly thought that we could find something to agree on, but it appears that this is not the case.

I guess I will just have to pop down to the shops and find some rods, an axe head and a size XL brown shirt.

PS That is a joke by the way.

I have never been called an agitator before. There's a first!

I fully appreciate that with your head buried deep in the sand, you are unable to appreciate that the EU is crying out for reform.

If serious reform does not take place then the EU will disintegrate, euro and all.

It really is that simple.

Whether you appreciate this point or not is immaterial.

Last edited by beachboy2; 06-29-2016 at 06:43 AM.
 
Old 06-29-2016, 06:50 AM   #127
alberich
Member
 
Registered: Apr 2016
Location: Bavaria
Distribution: Slackware
Posts: 140

Rep: Reputation: Disabled
'When you're chewing on life's gristle
Don't grumble, give a whistle'

Come on, and say one single tiny nice thing about the EU. For once. Pleeeeease.

I think we had several points we could agree on. Need for reforms. Sense to work together on topics as neighbours.

I think there is lots of sense and creativity left in all of Europe. I am not worrying very much. Troubles is always ahead, also if you had voted stay.

Last edited by alberich; 06-29-2016 at 06:51 AM.
 
Old 06-29-2016, 07:00 AM   #128
beachboy2
Senior Member
 
Registered: Jan 2007
Location: Wild West Wales, UK
Distribution: Linux Mint 20 MATE, MX-19.3, antiX, EndeavourOS
Posts: 3,287
Blog Entries: 17

Rep: Reputation: 1232Reputation: 1232Reputation: 1232Reputation: 1232Reputation: 1232Reputation: 1232Reputation: 1232Reputation: 1232Reputation: 1232
Smile

alberich,

Quote:
Come on, and say one single tiny nice thing about the EU. For once. Pleeeeease.
Paid leave.

Cheap flights.

Food labelling.

Consumer protection.

Clean rivers and air.

That's 5 nice things!
 
Old 06-29-2016, 08:21 AM   #129
ugjka
Member
 
Registered: May 2015
Location: Latvia
Distribution: Arch, Centos
Posts: 367
Blog Entries: 5

Rep: Reputation: 264Reputation: 264Reputation: 264
Quote:
Originally Posted by timl View Post
However, the British (English & Welsh) people have voted to support a campaign spearheaded (no pun intended) by Nigel Farage and the UKIP. Every racist thug & bully boy will take that as a green light to mete out whatever justice they deem correct on people who look the wrong way. Good luck, things could get pretty ugly - but at least you had the choice
The problem is that a lot of racists think they voted to deport every immigrant and that's not gonna happen. And yes every racist, xenophobe now think they have a license to shout vile angry remarks at immigrants in public.
https://www.buzzfeed.com/lukelewis/i...AVo#.ntN38jxXq
 
Old 06-29-2016, 09:32 AM   #130
jens
Senior Member
 
Registered: May 2004
Location: Belgium
Distribution: Debian, Slackware, Fedora
Posts: 1,439

Rep: Reputation: 275Reputation: 275Reputation: 275
Quote:
Originally Posted by beachboy2 View Post
jens,

Thanks for that finely crafted piece of erudition.

By the way, don't confuse quantity with quality!

I am sure your comment will be of great consolation to the many thousands of German car workers (and others) who are worried about losing their jobs because of the EU possibly taking "harsh" measures against the UK, which just happens to be the largest buyer of German cars in Europe. The German federal elections in 2017 may also have a bearing on matters.

Why would the EU wish to take a hard line against the UK? It would be a self-inflicted wound.

The simple answer is that the EU is extremely worried and wishes to discourage other EU member states from leaving.

Pressurising them to stay suggests that perhaps the EU is not actually quite as marvellous as it is portrayed by Jean-Claude Juncker and his cronies.

I have been a fan of German engineering for many years and I have always bought cars from the VW Audi Group. I would very much like to continue to do so.

Nevertheless, should "harsh" measures be taken against the UK in the leave negotiations, then I, along with many other UK car buyers, will definitely look outside the EU for a replacement vehicle.

In addition to our own UK car manufacturers, I am sure that manufacturers from Japan and South Korea would only be too willing to accommodate our requirements.



I really do not think that is the case, but time will tell and the UK has not yet started the clock ticking.

You and others who think like you were extremely happy to be always telling the UK what to do. Now things will change and quite naturally, you do not like it.

Just think about this one single point for one moment, if you can stop crying.

Had the EU given David Cameron some real and positive reforms before the referendum then it is highly likely that the UK would have voted Remain and we would not be having this dialogue.

Instead the EU decided to play hardball and gave Cameron two thirds of very little to take home to his electorate.

The UK voters saw through Cameron's "Emperor's new clothes" and voted Leave.

Move on and we'll decide when to start the clock, thank you very much.

Please see attached jpg.
Seriously ... I deliberately quoted a quote from someone else who quoted a quote from someone else because I really don't give a flying **** about either the EU or your local British politics (apologies for the muted bad language).

I'm also Belgian and not German (we don't sell cars and our politics make the ones from the EU look like a well organized schoolbook).

What I do care about is stability.
Just leave already, invoke article 50 and stop terrorizing other countries (who don't really care about your island either).
Every delay will only cost money for both sides.

PS: ... and don't get me wrong, I love the UK and its citizens.

Last edited by jens; 06-29-2016 at 10:18 AM.
 
Old 06-29-2016, 09:59 AM   #131
alberich
Member
 
Registered: Apr 2016
Location: Bavaria
Distribution: Slackware
Posts: 140

Rep: Reputation: Disabled
Quote:
Originally Posted by beachboy2 View Post
Paid leave.
Cheap flights.
Food labelling.
Consumer protection.
Clean rivers and air.
Thanks

And by the way I hope all our politicians have good ideas in future. I am happy I don't have to do decisions.
 
Old 06-29-2016, 10:20 AM   #132
beachboy2
Senior Member
 
Registered: Jan 2007
Location: Wild West Wales, UK
Distribution: Linux Mint 20 MATE, MX-19.3, antiX, EndeavourOS
Posts: 3,287
Blog Entries: 17

Rep: Reputation: 1232Reputation: 1232Reputation: 1232Reputation: 1232Reputation: 1232Reputation: 1232Reputation: 1232Reputation: 1232Reputation: 1232
jens,
Quote:
and don't get me wrong, I love the UK and its citizens
I like Belgian chocolate.
 
Old 06-29-2016, 10:26 AM   #133
jens
Senior Member
 
Registered: May 2004
Location: Belgium
Distribution: Debian, Slackware, Fedora
Posts: 1,439

Rep: Reputation: 275Reputation: 275Reputation: 275
Quote:
Originally Posted by beachboy2 View Post
jens,


I like Belgian chocolate.
We"re not that different after all
 
Old 06-29-2016, 10:28 AM   #134
beachboy2
Senior Member
 
Registered: Jan 2007
Location: Wild West Wales, UK
Distribution: Linux Mint 20 MATE, MX-19.3, antiX, EndeavourOS
Posts: 3,287
Blog Entries: 17

Rep: Reputation: 1232Reputation: 1232Reputation: 1232Reputation: 1232Reputation: 1232Reputation: 1232Reputation: 1232Reputation: 1232Reputation: 1232
Smile

Quote:
We"re not that different after all
Agreed.
 
Old 06-29-2016, 10:58 AM   #135
DavidMcCann
LQ Veteran
 
Registered: Jul 2006
Location: London
Distribution: PCLinuxOS, Xubuntu
Posts: 5,743

Rep: Reputation: 2127Reputation: 2127Reputation: 2127Reputation: 2127Reputation: 2127Reputation: 2127Reputation: 2127Reputation: 2127Reputation: 2127Reputation: 2127Reputation: 2127
Sundialsvcs had a point when he compared the federal vs state question in the USA with the EU dilemma, although the problem is worse here. A democratic system implies that the majority of people taking part have a similar vision of society. In England, there is a difference between London and Devon, but not a vast one. But as Marine Le Pen pointed out, it's pushing it too far to assume that a Polish MEP knows what's good for Spain, let alone what the Spaniards want. From the number of politicians echoing this criticism in Italy, Hungary, Czechia (and even the Pope), Brexit might just be the turning point to discredit the federalists.

How can Jean-Claude Junker understand national sentiment? He comes from Luxembourg, a "country" that doesn't even have a native language, which was created by accident in 1890, and which has a population like that of Wyoming or one of the smaller English counties.
 
  


Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off



Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Remapping a Northgate Omnikey "Omni" button to serve as a "Windows" or "Super" key. CVAlkan Linux - Hardware 6 01-07-2019 12:21 PM
[SOLVED] X: "loading extension glx" "no screens found" "fatal server error" (w/ nvidia driver) Geremia Slackware 7 12-29-2014 11:00 AM
[SOLVED] "net rpc" "failed to connect to ipc$ share on" or "unable to find a suitable server" larieu Linux - General 0 11-09-2014 12:45 AM
Standard commands give "-bash: open: command not found" even in "su -" and "su root" mibo12 Linux - General 4 11-11-2007 10:18 PM
LXer: Displaying "MyComputer", "Trash", "Network Servers" Icons On A GNOME Desktop LXer Syndicated Linux News 0 04-02-2007 08:31 AM

LinuxQuestions.org > Forums > Non-*NIX Forums > General

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:07 PM.

Main Menu
Advertisement
My LQ
Write for LQ
LinuxQuestions.org is looking for people interested in writing Editorials, Articles, Reviews, and more. If you'd like to contribute content, let us know.
Main Menu
Syndicate
RSS1  Latest Threads
RSS1  LQ News
Twitter: @linuxquestions
Open Source Consulting | Domain Registration