Are you saying with that quote and the way you citing it, that the English suffer the same pains and inequities of the EU than the Coloured of Southafrica suffered from the Boers? And that this evil system now fails like that before? By the way, what an inexpensive cliche from Macmillan at that point of time. Yeah, right. I probably should thank you for your pious hopes...?

Nevertheless, we needn't hear apologetics from Leave voters. How useless, you did win. If you still feel the urge to explain, then explain to the 48 % of your fellow countrymen and to, what seems to be, a majority of your elected representatives. But also listen to their explanations. And so, remember what Ghandi said: leadership means getting along with people. I guess Leave camp is the leader right now, ain't it so...

And I repeat I think it is your good right and in my opinion no (harsh) harm done. Maybe it's even refreshing.

Yet, of course you have solved probably very little of unnerving issues. Because all your neighbours do still exist, and we're in business. So I guess we secured us a lot of negotiation time and effort restarting from a ...clean sweep.
I am eager to know what solutions or at least constructive suggestions the leave camp will have in these matters for further trade, european-international affairs, operational aspects of Brexit, etc.

Finally easy solutions where never to be expected, were they?

Rubbish. There are people who voted to exit who are, themselves, immigrants some of them, gasp!, even have dark skin!
While Farage does have racist tendencies he, himself, would want to adopt an immigration system akin to Australia's. In other words, even the most racist person in the campaign just wants everyone to have an equal footing when it comes to immigration.

In other words, as mentioned above, the UK isn't full of racists and for the most part the racists are ignored and keep quiet.
For those racists who are present they're too moronic for the vote either way to change their views or their behaviour and they were as likely to do something stupid before the vote or because of a stay decision as they are now. And, by the way, I don't mean they are moronic just because they are racist (though that's usually a god indicator) but because if you actually see these people in real life or in the media you soon realise they're morons. For example, this famous little clip. When morons from the movement in that clip "marched" through my home town everyone ignored them and put the word out that "Those racist idiots are around.". So, yeah, that's how racist the UK is...

Smokey_justme,

Macmillan correctly forecast the independence of former African colonies (belonging to several different European empires) and the end of apartheid.

All I am saying is that the unreformed, money-wasting, bureaucratic machine that is the EU will very likely come under pressure from several of its member states demanding changes and improvements.

Also, since there are several general elections due soon in various EU member states, the European political landscape may well look a lot different in 2 or 3 years time.

In the UK's first referendum (1975) the British electorate, including me, and encouraged by our politicians, simply believed that it was voting for a common market for goods and trade in Europe.

I am not some racist, little-Englander who wants to pull up the drawbridge and keep the rest of the world at a distance.
I love Europe. I am European. Some of my best holidays ever were spent in Italy and Germany (Bavaria). I even took the effort to go to evening classes to learn Italian.

Had successive UK governments given the British electorate a much earlier second referendum on the vastly changed EU machine, then we would not be in this mess.

41 years without a say and then many people express surprise at the result. Amazing.

mate, I lived in England until 1991 when I migrated. I know most people aren't racist However, I remember the football grounds in the 1970s & 1980s - the NF handing out racist stickers and pamphlets, the monkey noises, the bananas thrown on the pitch.

And the bloke in your video, yeah he can hardly string a sentence together but I bet he would be happy to charge into a group of "foreign" women and children with all his mates.

But don't worry, it isn't going to happen here...nothing to see...move along

timl,

Good of you to acknowledge that fact.

Unfortunately it only needs the actions of a handful of supporters (i.e.scum) from the National Front or British National Party to give people outside the UK the impression that the whole of the UK is a racist, bigoted country.

Nothing could be further from the truth.

If the UK really was a racist country, I very much doubt whether so many immigrants would have seriously wanted to settle here with their families over the last umpteen years.

Why is it racist to suggest that black people born and bred in this country have a better right to British jobs than white people born in Poland or Romania? I fear I'm just too old to understand modern political correctness.

I hope competent people step up on all sides of re-negotitations. Than this is a good chance for optimisation.

But if no competent people are there, who are very able to handle the vast complexity, then there won't be progress, but I guess new solutions will be roughly as bad as.

Farage? You're defending one of the most simbolic face to nationalism and rasism and wonder why people are throwing you all in the same bucket... I know the UK is not like that, but Farage, the blonde mop and people like them are... Or are we not talking about the same UKIP that did all this? Or this Farage? Or this is also not Farage? Or how about his EU alliance with right winged Polish party that denies the Holocaust? When exactly will Farage cross that line between racism and "adopting an immigration system akin to Australia's"?

Also, you told me in one of your previous posts that you already have such a system in place (which you do) so the only difference is that Farage wants to dissallow EU members the right to freely move and work in the UK... Which brings the questions, how will you handle those mass migrations outside the UK.. What will you do with the 2 million expats you have in the EU (the EU will not accept them without reciprocity -- hell, they probably won't accept them period.. They don't have to, you have to)...

Agreed, the UK is not full of racists... Here's the problem, we all expected racists to vote this way and behave this way.. What was not expected is for you to legitimate the behaviour or vote to get out than massively Google what is the EU... Or doing it because you felt the Remain-camp was a bit arrogant, or because you hate Cameron, or any other reason you had... I'm sorry but I've yet to see one Leave-voter that actually had a good argument for voting this way.. No one actually thought 3 steps ahead, no one thought about what exactly will happen and who will make it happen... And you never, ever even consider the effect on the EU countries (and never consider the post-effect of this ignorance will have on you)...

And in your mind, that's what's happening now?

To me, this talk of "racist!" is basically being used as a smoke screen. By accusing you of "playing the race card," they divert attention from the real purpose: "exploitative immigration, strictly for corporate profit."

Although the particulars are different in the UK versus the US ... you don't seem to have the "non-immigrant visa" nonsense ... the essential economic reason for this practice is basically the same: "these people will work for less, and they will be afraid to say 'no.'" They can (and therefore, they will) find themselves in an abusive situation, and they won't refuse it.

To me, one of the most critical failings of this "commercial dystopia" is specifically that it seeks to bring the strong down to the level of "mutually assured weakness," simply because "the strong" naturally cost more. The one-and-only thing that these entire concepts focus upon is: "maximize international corporate profit." These madmen don't particularly care about any particular nation, and they certainly don't care about people. It is "all takin' and no givin'," and, as such, it is un-sustainable.

Globally, and on both sides of the "pond," we need "international trade frameworks" that don't throw out the baby with the bathwater. We do not need to, and should not, "sacrifice our own nations, and our own people," in the name of Commerce. For hundreds of years, businessmen have sat down at negotiating tables, under the watchful eyes of various governments, each of whom had jurisdiction over their portion of the proceedings and of the resulting deals. We can do that, still. These people are "Utopians," and their Utopia does not work, anywhere in the world. The safeguards represented by "national identity and sovereignty" are, in fact, vital to the trade process ... and to world security. They are: "checks and balances."

And, even though they now howl in protest, the truth of the matter is that the World As We Know It will not come to an end.

You make this up in your own mind and present it as facts...

Who is accusing non-rasists of racism? Show me examples, and I will show you that these are private individuals, not lobbyists, maybe in forums like this.

It makes a huge difference to say that attentions is being diverted actively by industrialist.

This is crude conspiracy theory.

It is still possible and plausible that industrialists that depend on low-qulified morkers, who they intend to pay very little, try to lobby immigration.

But don't mix that up with racism debate. I think accusations of racism are being made because of racism. On the other hand some of that talk is being made prematurely and unreflected sometimes by leftist people who are used to stating the opposite of that what conservative - right wing states.

The other thing is, that the west seperated the wealth among each other (also partially probably not fully intentionally, but because they could).

Now China, etc. are rising. Drawing profit to them by market mechanics, so we ourselves buy from them and not from our countrymen (lower prices increase our personal wealth...).

Additionally in a globalized world refugees who are close to drowning economically and who live in terrible states will do anything to reach peacful and wealthy constitutional democracies.

This is something mechanical and natural. Drawing fences to keep neediness into the ocean is still a little natural, but tends towards the mean and egoistical. For sure.

We will have difficulties to 'defend' your own, western wealth towards the 'outside'. Go on and try and shut others out. I don't pity you for your troubles and useless efforts.

From a G+ post (Vladimir Pantelic):

... that's really how most Europeans see it (just leave and stop annoying the rest of us).

No country should see itself as "just one country out of many," ruled by far-away businessmen and bureaucrats under the auspices of a "trade treaty." Human culture is not, and never has been, and, I think, never should be, "homogeneous."

If the treaty is about "trade," then it should begin-and-end with the discussion of the moving of boxes full of things. It should not ask any country to cease being what it is. It should not penalize the people who live in a country, just because some paeon somewhere else will "work for less." (Especially if, in the US at least, that person discovers that he is constantly in fear of being deported ... or, imprisoned.) And, it should not tell that country that "you have no say in the matter anymore."

EU went wildly out-of-control with "everything is ruled from Brussels." The USA is being solicited by "trade agreements" which would set-aside(!!) huge swaths of American law, as though those laws had never been debated and enacted, and that would(!) impose financial penalties upon the nation, at the sole discretion of companies.

And, until now, they felt that "there is no one to tell us, 'No.'"

There is nothing wrong with the people "slamming on the brakes" and forcing runaway leaders to begin to re-consider. I'm sure that we can accomplish the goals of "facilitating international trade," without going nearly so far as these plans so-recklessly do. Although "trade" is vital, we don't need to sacrifice our nations to achieve it. In fact, I think that the only way that we can actually achieve "robust, sustainable" trade is ... to embrace(!) "national sovereignty." Be a member of a European Union if you want to be, but don't stop being Spain or France.

One honestly can't compare EU with the USA.
USA is just an other country as well (take that as a compliment).

The EU is far from perfect, though also not intended to be so (we all care about personal interests).
It's mostly a trade union between very different "western-thinking" countries on the same continent.

If one of them wishes to leave ... move on and stop the delay.

jens,


Thanks for that finely crafted piece of erudition.

By the way, don't confuse quantity with quality!

I am sure your comment will be of great consolation to the many thousands of German car workers (and others) who are worried about losing their jobs because of the EU possibly taking "harsh" measures against the UK, which just happens to be the largest buyer of German cars in Europe. The German federal elections in 2017 may also have a bearing on matters.

Why would the EU wish to take a hard line against the UK? It would be a self-inflicted wound.

The simple answer is that the EU is extremely worried and wishes to discourage other EU member states from leaving.

Pressurising them to stay suggests that perhaps the EU is not actually quite as marvellous as it is portrayed by Jean-Claude Juncker and his cronies.

I have been a fan of German engineering for many years and I have always bought cars from the VW Audi Group. I would very much like to continue to do so.

Nevertheless, should "harsh" measures be taken against the UK in the leave negotiations, then I, along with many other UK car buyers, will definitely look outside the EU for a replacement vehicle.

In addition to our own UK car manufacturers, I am sure that manufacturers from Japan and South Korea would only be too willing to accommodate our requirements.

I really do not think that is the case, but time will tell and the UK has not yet started the clock ticking.

You and others who think like you were extremely happy to be always telling the UK what to do. Now things will change and quite naturally, you do not like it.

Just think about this one single point for one moment, if you can stop crying.

Had the EU given David Cameron some real and positive reforms before the referendum then it is highly likely that the UK would have voted Remain and we would not be having this dialogue.

Instead the EU decided to play hardball and gave Cameron two thirds of very little to take home to his electorate.

The UK voters saw through Cameron's "Emperor's new clothes" and voted Leave.

Move on and we'll decide when to start the clock, thank you very much.

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