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Old 06-26-2016, 07:02 AM   #76
hazel
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Well, that's great! Let the people vote and if they give the "wrong" answer, make them vote again (and again and again if necessary) until they get it right. I believe the EU actually did that in a referendum that took place a couple of years ago (I can't remember where, but it was to ratify some treaty or other). The naughty people got their knuckles rapped and were told to try again.

Sorry, but that's not democracy.
 
Old 06-26-2016, 07:17 AM   #77
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I think also to counter precisely this notion we mustn't fuss around, but Britain must leave the EU instantly.

If that is good or bad is to me secondary in the face of damage to 'trust' in our 'democracy'. If consequences are bad, than (maybe) the people will learn to handle plebiscites more carefully in the future and think more thoroughly.

By the way I think Cameron did poker, now he needs to call article 50 instantly, just like he said he would.

What a terrible coward and fool or what is that supposed to be? WTF. Get your shit done!

Last edited by alberich; 06-26-2016 at 07:19 AM.
 
Old 06-26-2016, 07:20 AM   #78
Jeebizz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hazel View Post
Well, that's great! Let the people vote and if they give the "wrong" answer, make them vote again (and again and again if necessary) until they get it right. I believe the EU actually did that in a referendum that took place a couple of years ago (I can't remember where, but it was to ratify some treaty or other). The naughty people got their knuckles rapped and were told to try again.

Sorry, but that's not democracy.
I was about to say just that, didn't Brussels hold a referendum on something a while back because the people voted was not what Brussels expected/wanted?
 
Old 06-26-2016, 09:34 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by Jeebizz View Post
I was about to say just that, didn't Brussels hold a referendum on something a while back because the people voted was not what Brussels expected/wanted?
Which is just the kind of thing that people in the UK voted to get rid of. All fun and games.

By the way, I think Russia would get a lot more respect if they weren't acting like some backwards tinpot stone-age dictatorship on human fights issues. Perhaps if Putin stopped behaving like a he thinks he's Hitler reborn people would take Russia a bit more seriously.
 
Old 06-26-2016, 10:19 AM   #80
alberich
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Originally Posted by 273 View Post
Which is just the kind of thing that people in the UK voted to get rid of. All fun and games.

Stop complainig and whining. Do your thing. Do it better.

I doubt even the EU bureaucrats did terrible, terrible and heinous things to our poor poor peoples. But everyone is whining a lot, in Bavaria also.

And to compare Putin to Hitler is nonsense.

Putin seem to be quite an ordinary polititian who has to handle lots of problems and to sell it to his population. Maybe if he's somewhat untrustworthy, that is common for such folks.

Gorbatchev warned us to trample over this player, Helmut Schmidt warned us too.

Russia could have a much worse leader than Putin.

Last edited by alberich; 06-26-2016 at 10:21 AM.
 
Old 06-26-2016, 10:36 AM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alberich View Post
Stop complainig and whining. Do your thing. Do it better.

I doubt even the EU bureaucrats did terrible, terrible and heinous things to our poor poor peoples. But everyone is whining a lot, in Bavaria also.

And to compare Putin to Hitler is nonsense.

Putin seem to be quite an ordinary polititian who has to handle lots of problems and to sell it to his population. Maybe if he's somewhat untrustworthy, that is common for such folks.

Gorbatchev warned us to trample over this player, Helmut Schmidt warned us too.

Russia could have a much worse leader than Putin.
I'm not complaining, I'm pointing out to those who wonder why we voted to leave one of the reasons we voted to leave. There are people who seem to think that the UK voted to leave because we're separatist racists or that we only voted to get rid of Cameron. That isn't true and one of the reasons the vote took place has been mentioned so I highlighted that.

As to Putin he's a pathetic narcissist who doesn't care about human rights. Yes, Russia could have a worse leader but the butcher of Grozny is a hateful piece of excrement.
 
Old 06-26-2016, 02:49 PM   #82
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I hope also the EU learns from this. If countries want to be more individual that must be respected. But the EU I don't think should be a scapegoat for every evil in our countries.

I agree I don't fancy russian Propaganda and that must be said openly. Nevertheless what good will it ever do if blocks are segregated aseptically again? That feeds only enemy image among the people and if peoples consider others as enemy that will lead to hostilities that are for a large part needless.
 
Old 06-26-2016, 02:50 PM   #83
linustalman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hazel View Post
Well, that's great! Let the people vote and if they give the "wrong" answer, make them vote again (and again and again if necessary) until they get it right. I believe the EU actually did that in a referendum that took place a couple of years ago (I can't remember where, but it was to ratify some treaty or other). The naughty people got their knuckles rapped and were told to try again.

Sorry, but that's not democracy.
Hi Hazel.

Yes, it's an affront to democracy. It happened in Ireland -- I voted against the Lisbon treaty twice -- alas too many voters were swayed by government propaganda for the second vote.

Last edited by linustalman; 06-26-2016 at 03:37 PM. Reason: voted -> voters
 
Old 06-26-2016, 03:30 PM   #84
Jeebizz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 273 View Post
Which is just the kind of thing that people in the UK voted to get rid of. All fun and games.

By the way, I think Russia would get a lot more respect if they weren't acting like some backwards tinpot stone-age dictatorship on human fights issues. Perhaps if Putin stopped behaving like a he thinks he's Hitler reborn people would take Russia a bit more seriously.
I dunno, the Russians let alone Putin don't seem to bluff, they follow their words by actions. I.E they said they are targeting ISIS and going after them, whereas the west seems to be pussy-footing it, and again Russia pretty much called out Turkey and the Saudis on them dragging their feet in ISIS.

In some ways, Russia has more credibility compared to the west when it comes to certain foreign policies, just saying.
 
Old 06-27-2016, 12:52 AM   #85
sundialsvcs
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Actually ... (if I may kindly interject, here ...) ... "your various, supposedly-regional, supposedly-national, arguments" ... all(!) ... "are also(!) extremely too-familiar, "on this(!) 'side of the pond.'"

"It would seem," at least to me, "that we have all 'similarly been duped.'"

"Over here," we have been confronted with "trade agreements" which, as a matter of course, "declared" that any US Laws that were contrary to their "commercial intentions" were, in fact, now "unlawful," and than any pathetic bleating to the contrary must be tried by "a vague tribunal of businessmen," who (of course ...) would summarily penalize any national action that they deemed "contrary to their business dealings."



"Well, after a finally(!!)-sufficient number of (inter-)national iterations," it finally seems that "this (perverse) line of (inter-)national reasoning" is finally encountering its first ##BIT_BUCKET_OVERFLOW## ... !

Truth(!) is: "while 'the exegencies of ((inter-)national) commerce" are "generally recognized as 'a good thing,'" they are not, in fact, "the only thing" that needs be considered.

Specifically: "the exegencies of commerce" are n-o-t(!!), in fact, sufficient justification for "any ((inter-)national) trading partner, "anywhere, to throw their respective national identity(!) "under the bus," as though such a thing were merely "an impediment to traffic."

"In centuries past," our forefathers ... on both sides of The Pond, actually ... believed in "sovereign nations, trading with one another from positions of respective strength." Even though their trade-negotiations might never have yielded "the lowest price," they generally resulted in terms that were sustainable for all trading partners. And, they never dreamed of "superseding(!) established national norms, laws, and moral principles" in: "the vain pursuit of Another Currency Unit."

Yes, indeed: "at long last, the actual stakeholders, the "ordinary (sic ...) citizens," are making their voices heard ...

... on both(!) sides of The Pond.

... and they are speaking with a common(!) voice ...

... and, they are correct!

"It" ... is not(!!) (!!) (!!) ... "just about business!"

"Quite frankly, on both sides of the pond ..." we all now find ourselves with: "food for thought."

... and, guess what: "the food tastes exactly the same." (Wonder why ...?)

Last edited by sundialsvcs; 06-27-2016 at 12:58 AM.
 
Old 06-27-2016, 02:38 AM   #86
hazel
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sundialsvcs View Post
"Over here," we have been confronted with "trade agreements" which, as a matter of course, "declared" that any US Laws that were contrary to their "commercial intentions" were, in fact, now "unlawful," and than any pathetic bleating to the contrary must be tried by "a vague tribunal of businessmen," who (of course ...) would summarily penalize any national action that they deemed "contrary to their business dealings."
That's TTIP! America is trying to impose that on us now, and part of the argument against it over here has always been that Americans themselves would never submit to such tyranny. It seems we may have overestimated you after all.

Incidentally President Obama's intervention, when he threatened to punish a brexit vote by putting us "at the back of the queue", probably contributed to the outcome. Up till then, Obama was quite a popular man over here. We liked his liberalism, his attitude to guns, and of course the way he had changed history by becoming the first black president. If he had said that America would be very pleased if we voted Remain but that of course it was the British people's call to make, the margin would certainly have been closer. As it was, even people who were leaning towards Remain were outraged that a "bloody foreigner" should be ordering British people how to vote.
 
Old 06-27-2016, 02:53 AM   #87
ardvark71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hazel View Post
We liked his liberalism, his attitude to guns
Not all of us (as Americans) did.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hazel View Post
As it was, even people who were leaning towards Remain were outraged that a "bloody foreigner" should be ordering British people how to vote.
I felt that was a mistake on the President's part. The brexit vote was an internal matter for the British and was not something for us (the United States) to attempt to "sway" in this manner.

Regards...

Last edited by ardvark71; 06-27-2016 at 03:00 AM. Reason: Added information and smileys.
 
Old 06-27-2016, 03:15 AM   #88
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The current European Union (EU) had its origins in the European Steel and Coal Community which had 6 members in 1951.

In 1975 the UK voted in the first referendum by 67% to 33% to remain in the what was then called the Common Market and which had 9 members. The turnout was 65% and the total number of votes was 25.9 million.

Subsequent treaties including Maastricht (1992) and Lisbon (2007) created the EU, a full supranational political union with a common currency, the euro. The UK retained the pound sterling.

It should be noted that the national laws of EU member states (currently 28 members and with a further 5 countries waiting to join) are subservient to all sources of EU law.

At no time during the 41 years since the first referendum were the people of the UK allowed any say whatsoever by successive Conservative or Labour governments about this organisation which had changed out of all recognition since its original “common market” trading agreements.

The second referendum figures were 52 % for Leave and 48% for Remain, with a turnout of 72% and total votes of 33.5 million.

Quote:
I voted Leave for reasons that had nothing to do with nationalism or immigration. After all, my own parents were refugees and immigrants. I voted Leave because we were duped into joining a common market and nobody asked our permission to turn it into an ever-closer union.
I voted Leave on the single matter of UK sovereignty, so that in future, only UK laws will apply in UK courts.

For those who are interested on the history of the EU:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enlarg...European_Union

Last edited by beachboy2; 06-27-2016 at 03:59 AM.
 
Old 06-27-2016, 05:35 AM   #89
ugjka
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Uhm people now think it is okey to be racist. I'm quite worried about my relatives who live in uk

https://imgur.com/a/tTe5d <-- Examples

Last edited by ugjka; 06-27-2016 at 05:36 AM.
 
Old 06-27-2016, 06:50 AM   #90
Soadyheid
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Just to head off in a totally different direction, this is an IT based forum after all:

It's looking like people with skills in Linux, Unix, Windows and any other IT related experience; hardware de-install/install, data centre moving and programming of all kinds will now be in great demand. Banks and financial institutions will need to move not just people from the UK to Frankfurt, Paris, etc, but will need to move major lumps of computer estate as well. Database Analysts are going to have their work cut out for the next goodness knows how long disentangling vast swathes of data which also need to be moved. (Hmm... this might also be an opportunity for international lawyers involved in data protection.)

International companies which were using the UK as a port of entry to the EU for their products (For example, I'm thinking Nissan in Sunderland - the first region to vote leave) may be rethinking their commitment to the UK. Their responsibility is to shareholders, not countries. Lots of equipment to relocate?

Scotland going independent? I might just buy that this time having been told that "Vote Stay" in our independence referendum was the only way we could have EU membership. In Scottish parlance, "The game's a bogey"
Another rich source of IT experience would be needed to extricate the various common Scotland/Rest of the UK interwoven bits of data: Taxes, Pensions, various licensing and regulatory stuff. Jobs for life!

It looks like we; the Scots, English, Northern Irish and Welsh are living in a Dis-United Kingdom, the UK politicians apparently never had a Plan B and appear to have all run away. Job vacancies for a Prime Minister and possibly a leader of the opposition among others.

With only a two year period to pull the UK/EU all apart and get back to some sort of stability, not only are the politicians going to find it impossible, the technical ramifications will be around for decades.

Try to Play Bonny!


Last edited by Soadyheid; 06-27-2016 at 06:51 AM.
 
  


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