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Old 06-25-2016, 04:09 AM   #46
Celtic Yokel
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I did not vote Brexit, I voted in, but many people didn't use their vote because they couldn't decide which way to go. I've learnt a lot from this thread by following the various links posted, and my thanks to everyone for those. It's of concern how many people are now saying that they voted Brexit because they thought it wouldn't matter; they wanted to show that they were dissatisfied with the status quo although they didn't truly want to leave. It just amply demonstrates that every vote matters.
I never miss a chance to vote because in the early 20C women died to enable me to vote, and for that I regard it as an obligation in respect of how much they gave.
There's tremendous pressure on David Cameron to stand down as PM asap, with Boris Johnson named as a likely successor. As long as Nigel Farage is kept further away than arm's length, because I find UKIP's growing popularity and support worrying. He's had plenty to say during the Brexit campaign, and he hasn't quietened down since.
 
Old 06-25-2016, 04:12 AM   #47
Celtic Yokel
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Jeebizz, your posts in this thread sound as if you're in the UK, are you?
 
Old 06-25-2016, 11:08 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by Celtic Yokel View Post
Jeebizz, your posts in this thread sound as if you're in the UK, are you?
No I am in the US and I am not Scottish or English. I do like to keep up with world events and keep myself relatively well informed, a rare thing for a 'Murrican' these days . And I do throw a lot of rocks and criticism towards the policies and idiocy of my own country.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmaQaEUk8yQ

Last edited by Jeebizz; 06-25-2016 at 11:50 AM.
 
Old 06-25-2016, 11:28 AM   #49
Celtic Yokel
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You're to be commended, Jeebizz. I mostly avoid tv and tend not to follow current affairs online either, so it's only if something catches my attention that I make any effort to find out about it. I find that not knowing often makes for a more peaceful life, so that's why something like this General Forum is useful because it brings all sorts of things into view.
 
Old 06-25-2016, 12:18 PM   #50
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I voted Leave for reasons that had nothing to do with nationalism or immigration. After all, my own parents were refugees and immigrants. I voted Leave because we were duped into joining a common market and nobody asked our permission to turn it into an ever-closer union. I voted Leave because I believe in democracy and I was sick of the country being run from abroad by people we couldn't vote out of office. I was sick of the rampant financial corruption of the EU bureaucrats and MEPs and furious at the way these people had treated Greece, the country that gave us democracy. The Greek people voted and the EU ignored them; they won't be able to ignore us.

I voted Leave because the bankers and the big businessmen and David Cameron wanted us to stay in. Every time I heard Cameron's ugly braying voice, I knew that anything he wanted had to be bad for the country. The way he tried to bully and terrorise us into voting Remain was one of the most disgusting things I have ever seen in a UK political campaign, and I've had 70 years experience.

Yes, we are in for a very bumpy ride. But remember the Children of Israel in the Bible? They didn't want to be free if it meant living in the wilderness even for a few years. They wanted to go back to comfortable slavery by the fleshpots of Egypt,where they could stuff themselves with leeks and onions and garlic. The biblical writers, whoever they were, make it crystal clear that that was the wrong choice, and I'm glad my country has chosen otherwise.
 
Old 06-25-2016, 12:24 PM   #51
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Well said hazel. We're thinking along similar lines, it seems.
 
Old 06-25-2016, 12:44 PM   #52
Smokey_justme
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hazel View Post
I voted Leave for reasons that had nothing to do with nationalism or immigration. After all, my own parents were refugees and immigrants. I voted Leave because we were duped into joining a common market and nobody asked our permission to turn it into an ever-closer union. I voted Leave because I believe in democracy and I was sick of the country being run from abroad by people we couldn't vote out of office. I was sick of the rampant financial corruption of the EU bureaucrats and MEPs and furious at the way these people had treated Greece, the country that gave us democracy. The Greek people voted and the EU ignored them; they won't be able to ignore us.
So, now you're going to pay 3 times (made up number, the point is you'll eventually pay more) as much and follow rules made by the EU (that you will not now be able to influence -- you fucking know you we're in the head of the EU, right? you did at least google how the f*ck the EU works, right?)... Great job )

Greece (well, the government) lied and stoled.. A lot.. for more than 20 years..

Quote:
Originally Posted by hazel View Post
I voted Leave because the bankers and the big businessmen and David Cameron wanted us to stay in. Every time I heard Cameron's ugly braying voice, I knew that anything he wanted had to be bad for the country. The way he tried to bully and terrorise us into voting Remain was one of the most disgusting things I have ever seen in a UK political campaign, and I've had 70 years experience.
You are aware that this was not a vote for the choosing a new Prime Minister, right? Anyway, you know that scary shit they told you it will happen if you vote "Leave".. It will probably be worse ) But congrats for listening to UKIP.. They where sweethearts.. )

Quote:
Originally Posted by hazel View Post
Yes, we are in for a very bumpy ride. But remember the Children of Israel in the Bible? They didn't want to be free if it meant living in the wilderness even for a few years. They wanted to go back to comfortable slavery by the fleshpots of Egypt,where they could stuff themselves with leeks and onions and garlic. The biblical writers, whoever they were, make it crystal clear that that was the wrong choice, and I'm glad my country has chosen otherwise.
I don't know how to respond to this.. Hmm.. Cu-cu!?

Last edited by Smokey_justme; 06-25-2016 at 12:57 PM.
 
Old 06-25-2016, 12:59 PM   #53
alberich
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Originally Posted by frankbell View Post
I know that the UK has a long history of ambivalence about its relationship to mainland Europe.
Who told us that? Maybe Britain is the mainland and Europe only an island?
 
Old 06-25-2016, 01:06 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smokey_justme View Post
So, now you're going to pay 3 times (made up number, the point is you'll eventually pay more) as much and follow rules made by the EU (that you will not now be able to influence -- you fucking know you we're in the head of the EU, right? you did at least google how the f*ck the EU works, right?)... Great job )
Wow, I wish I were half as arrogant as you.
Unless you're an MEP with real, actual connections to this you're simply regurgitating somebody else's argument.
It's probably people like you spouting rubbish that lead to this. So, bravo! You got what you wanted!
 
Old 06-25-2016, 01:50 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by 273 View Post
Wow, I wish I were half as arrogant as you.
Unless you're an MEP with real, actual connections to this you're simply regurgitating somebody else's argument.
It's probably people like you spouting rubbish that lead to this. So, bravo! You got what you wanted!
I really wish this was arrogance.. But it's just a logical truth.. Everything you've done in the past 40 years was with the EU.... You where the EU... Every system you have is dependent on EU resources (human resources, manufactured resources, financial resources, etc.. ) .. This won't change over night and no one in the UK is prepared to suffer for 10 years until you get back on track as a single country.. So you either go fully nuts (which you as a country are well known that you don't usually go fully nuts) or you try buying yourself in and sucking the balls of every EU country to postpone the two years time you have until you actually leave.. But yeah, you keep telling yourself that you vote because Cameron was a big, bad, bully and your situation might look like something you've read in the Bible... Fuck logic, facts, reasoning and freedom (everything that people worked for in the last 40 years).. Lets vote because Cameron is an ass...Just look in the papers which groups are happy about the result and you can see what you voted... On the other hand, if you identify yourself with groups like UKIP and the National Front.. well .. pick-up a history book...

Just my opinion.. You'll awe me a beer when this happens, ok?

P.S. This vote was actually not about the UK (as stated above, I don't think they'll leave ) ), but was about the EU.. EU's trust is now demolished regardless of what will happen and that's actually a very bad thing (specially now when Russia is more powerfull then ever, ISIS is beating at our door and in the USA Trump might actually win?!)... You call this a democratic vote, I call it a failure in the democratic process.. A failure to educate, a failure to think, a failure to reason..

Last edited by Smokey_justme; 06-25-2016 at 01:51 PM.
 
Old 06-25-2016, 01:56 PM   #56
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Again with the arrogance. You pretend to speak for a country you don't even live in and a situation you know little about.
How do you think the man on the street in the US would take to having Mexican, UK and Canadian laws made into US Federal law every time they're enacted? I take it you were anti-revolution and wish you were part of the British Empire still?

Nobody is saying this will be easy or that compromises will have to be made. What has failed here is, as you quite rightly point out, the democratic process. What also seems to have failed is people's ability to understand that voting for a short-term loss does not make somebody in some way ignorant.
 
Old 06-25-2016, 02:01 PM   #57
Jeebizz
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Originally Posted by Smokey_justme View Post
P.S. This vote was actually not about the UK (as stated above, I don't think they'll leave ) ), but was about the EU.. EU's trust is now demolished regardless of what will happen and that's actually a very bad thing (specially now when Russia is more powerfull then ever.

At the risk of yet again, being a 'Russian fanboy' , I will keep beating this drum. Who again poked the Russians from their slumber? Again, why is NATO still expanding? Russia time and time again has given clear notice, and contrary to most western media (if not all), they are not being belligerent but reminding all of Europe the agreement after the Second World War. It was agreed upon after a time, that things would come to an end of the status quo, the Russian on their own volition pulled back, yet NATO broke their own word on the matter. If Gorbachev wanted, he could have continued the policy of the division of Berlin, and that whole fantasy about Reagan being responsible for the eventual tearing down of the wall is complete b/s. It was a speech done at the right time.

Case in point also, instead of encroaching on Russia by NATO's expansion they would be best to being neighbors with Russia, after all ....They are right f'ing there! Whereas the US isn't, so it would be wise to have good relations with your neighbors, i.e someone as big as Russia. Besides, this whole sanctioning of Russia was pointless too, after all the Germans are beginning to have second thoughts and so are the other countries in Europe. So now what? It will be just the US, so what? The rest of Europe are potentially returning to business as usual with the Russians....

But whatever, I did not mean to get on an entirely different tangent.

Also about the whole immigration issue; that is all Merkel's fault and as I alluded to earlier if this is the beginning of the end of the EU (I didn't say it would be quick though), then you will see Schengen essentially be no more. After all, in France - Front National is most definitely going to call a referendum; other countries will follow.

Last edited by Jeebizz; 06-25-2016 at 02:02 PM.
 
Old 06-25-2016, 02:06 PM   #58
Emerson
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Heh, I think exit is good for brits. This makes them suffer and suffering is a known good thing, it is a prerequisite of progress.
 
Old 06-25-2016, 02:35 PM   #59
Smokey_justme
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Originally Posted by 273 View Post
Again with the arrogance. You pretend to speak for a country you don't even live in and a situation you know little about.
How do you think the man on the street in the US would take to having Mexican, UK and Canadian laws made into US Federal law every time they're enacted? I take it you were anti-revolution and wish you were part of the British Empire still?
That man walking on the streat in the US would feel exactly as I felt at this referendum... But here's the thing.. Your vote affected me because I live in Europe... Yet I understand that it was not my vote to make, it was yours.. Life's just not fair sometimes... But tell me how do people feel when they live in London and the british government overrides a local law? Do you think people loved all the ideas Britain came up with and we're enacted by the EU? But that was the point of the EU, none of the states could have turn on each other...

Now let me ask you, how will Spain feel about paying for about a million brits-expats? They don't have 2 million spanish people living in UK so they won't give a fuck (and you already know how it is to pay healt-care and pensions for "aliens").. But this was the EU... It was not only about bilateral agreement but about a guaranty that every member will not turn their backs on each other ... So someone will pay for you even if you pay for someone else's problems.. You might not always win something in the short term, but it has proven a very good deal in the long run for you...

Quote:
Originally Posted by 273 View Post
Nobody is saying this will be easy or that compromises will have to be made. What has failed here is, as you quite rightly point out, the democratic process. What also seems to have failed is people's ability to understand that voting for a short-term loss does not make somebody in some way ignorant.
And who will have to bare those compromises? People that voted "Leave" where already full from the events in the last 10 years.. You're telling me that you'll be able to watch another 10 years that will be worse than the last 10? Because the medical field will need restaffing (which takes time and costs)? How about education? How about looses of jobs and money (which might mean increases in taxes) when giant companies start to relocate (some completely, some partially -- they have to if they don't want to pay customs for export in the EU)? How about price increases on basic food because of imports? Sure, things might get back on track in 10 years or even less, but will you still have the pacience to wait?

And what is the long-term win of this, please? Fewer regulation on safety issues? Increase chances of freedom restrictions depending on what party gets in power... Trust me, Romania was not in the EU until 2007 (weirdly enough, I was kind of against joining because, you know, naivity and some Soros of the time and other bullshit like that) ... I know how it is and what I'm talking about (and we're just starting to get rid of coruption, nepotism and gross incompetence).. Do you think you are prepared for all that? Because, while it won't happen overnight, in the long run, that's how it will be (but you should know that from your history books, it has happened in England)... The EU works because it doesn't grant the power to a federal government over the states like in the USA, while it still has oversears and imposed minimum rules... The cultural diversity and the effective market created by it is like none other in history, so please, tell me .. What do you think will the long-term win be?

Last edited by Smokey_justme; 06-25-2016 at 02:57 PM.
 
Old 06-25-2016, 02:56 PM   #60
Smokey_justme
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Originally Posted by Jeebizz View Post
At the risk of yet again, being a 'Russian fanboy' , I will keep beating this drum. Who again poked the Russians from their slumber? Again, why is NATO still expanding? Russia time and time again has given clear notice, and contrary to most western media (if not all), they are not being belligerent but reminding all of Europe the agreement after the Second World War. It was agreed upon after a time, that things would come to an end of the status quo, the Russian on their own volition pulled back, yet NATO broke their own word on the matter. If Gorbachev wanted, he could have continued the policy of the division of Berlin, and that whole fantasy about Reagan being responsible for the eventual tearing down of the wall is complete b/s. It was a speech done at the right time.
Ok.. So Russia has a say of what other countries choose to do? They can expand their millitary powers, yet NATO members can't? Because Russia gave notice?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeebizz View Post
Case in point also, instead of encroaching on Russia by NATO's expansion they would be best to being neighbors with Russia, after all ....They are right f'ing there! Whereas the US isn't, so it would be wise to have good relations with your neighbors, i.e someone as big as Russia. Besides, this whole sanctioning of Russia was pointless too, after all the Germans are beginning to have second thoughts and so are the other countries in Europe. So now what? It will be just the US, so what? The rest of Europe are potentially returning to business as usual with the Russians....
Ukraine and Transnistria are proof that this is not true.. Romanian history is proof that this is not true.. I'm not even going to mention Caucass and Georgia... They take what they like..

Quote:
Also about the whole immigration issue; that is all Merkel's fault and as I alluded to earlier if this is the beginning of the end of the EU (I didn't say it would be quick though), then you will see Schengen essentially be no more. After all, in France - Front National is most definitely going to call a referendum; other countries will follow.
The immigration issue is a complicated one... But let's be honest, it's a separate issue and should have been treated this way... On the other hand, ending the war in Syria and stoping the grouth of ISIS should be a priority of all parties (EU or not)...
And I'm not sure the domino effect will be permited across Europe, people that where ignorant until now will start to raise up and speak.. Enough is enough and exiting because you hate Merkel or Cameron is a stupid thing to do... And while many other referendums might pop-up, I'm not sure this result will repeat itself right now... Hopefully I'm right, but who knows..

Last edited by Smokey_justme; 06-25-2016 at 02:57 PM.
 
  


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