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Old 07-14-2016, 08:35 PM   #226
sundialsvcs
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Quite frankly, I think that "these capitalists" didn't give-a-damn "which 'third of the globe'" they were talking to:
  • Europe: "Play the small countries against the big ones."
  • North America: "Just sell 'em that 'anywhere else in the world' is somehow Better (In Every Way) Than Here."
  • The Far East: "Nevermind China ... you are still 'very-exploitably starving.'"

And:
  • "Anywhere and everywhere(!) in the world, 'just pour-on the bribes!'"

"Always assume that, no matter what happens ... (uhh ...) ... the Ordinary People Plebeians will never actually be able to formulate themselves into any sort of Cohesive Force that might actually recognize what we are up to, or that, in any case, could conceivably Oppose Us ..."

Fortunately, "capitalists" can be surely counted-on to think in exactly one way: "Next quarter's results, and no farther ..."

My goodness, how times have changed ... (thanks to The Internet ...)

International politics, and business relations, will never be the same again. But, this time, it won't be "the international traders" who are in charge. It will be: the common(!) man.

Last edited by sundialsvcs; 07-14-2016 at 08:55 PM.
 
Old 07-15-2016, 01:55 AM   #227
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Quote:
Originally Posted by przemo View Post
but still is is a kind of paradox that first country to do it was/is also capitol of these capitalists at least on this side of pond.
This is great 4chan bit http://i.imgur.com/YiRRYQt.jpg
 
Old 07-15-2016, 12:32 PM   #228
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http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-bri...-idUKKCN0ZV1HU

Quote:
British Prime Minister Theresa May said on Friday that the government would not trigger Article 50, the formal trigger of divorce talks with the European Union, until a "UK approach" had been agreed.
I should just stop following UK politics, there won't be any brexit lol
 
Old 07-15-2016, 01:04 PM   #229
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i don`t think so with Boris Johnson as a Foreign Secretary.
 
Old 07-15-2016, 05:29 PM   #230
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today, another turn of the wheel of history:

Massacre of the Janissaries: Ottoman Empire 1826
[ 1826 ]

The need to modernize a military system engaged in a losing struggle to maintain Ottoman control over the Mediterranean littoral and the Middle East was recognized by the first of the reforming sultans, Selim III (r. 1789-1807). He introduced French instructors to train the soldiers of a new volunteer army organized along the lines of contemporary European armed forces. However, his efforts were successfully resisted by the janissaries, who concluded that reform foreshadowed an end to their traditional privileges. Rising up in 1807, the janissaries precipitated the sultan's abdication and the dismantling of th
e new army. Mahmud II (r. 1808-39) eventually became strong enough to challenge the power of the traditional military caste. He reinstituted the reformed army and, in 1826, crushed the janissaries with a massive artillery barrage aimed at their barracks.
 
Old 07-19-2016, 07:49 PM   #231
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"We shall see™, but ..." perhaps, in the days and weeks that follow, "human wisdom and diplomatic compromise will prevail."

Without question(!), the heretofore "fairly out-of-control politicians in Brussels" have been "served with their 'Come To Jesus.™'"

After too-many years of their imagining that "'nations' just don't matter anymore," one nation has finally jerked their chain, and in a way that they cannot deny.

Yea, it was much too long (IMHO) in coming. But, it is finally here. "The ground-rules have irretrievably been altered." And, one must hope, for the better.

IMHO, "a 'European Union,' as they had so-far conceived it," could never have survived. Therefore, maybe it's better that they "felt 'a shot across the bow'" before it was actually too late.

Last edited by sundialsvcs; 07-19-2016 at 07:51 PM.
 
Old 07-20-2016, 02:46 PM   #232
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sundialsvcs View Post
"We shall see™, but ..." perhaps, in the days and weeks that follow, "human wisdom and diplomatic compromise will prevail."

Without question(!), the heretofore "fairly out-of-control politicians in Brussels" have been "served with their 'Come To Jesus.™'"

After too-many years of their imagining that "'nations' just don't matter anymore," one nation has finally jerked their chain, and in a way that they cannot deny.

Yea, it was much too long (IMHO) in coming. But, it is finally here. "The ground-rules have irretrievably been altered." And, one must hope, for the better.

IMHO, "a 'European Union,' as they had so-far conceived it," could never have survived. Therefore, maybe it's better that they "felt 'a shot across the bow'" before it was actually too late.
No offense, but you clearly don't understand a flying **** about European politics.
Joining Europe outside the EU means following the exact same rules without having any of its benefits and absolutely NOTHING to say/vote for (UK is *****).
It's really the exact opposite from what those "leave" voters voted for.

Last edited by jens; 07-20-2016 at 03:14 PM.
 
Old 07-20-2016, 03:21 PM   #233
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I predict that the EU will either radically reform itself, greatly reducing its powers over its members, or it will break up completely within five years.

It consists of "animals unequally yoked together." This is not the only way that the countries of Europe can expedite trade with one another.
 
Old 07-20-2016, 03:45 PM   #234
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I predict that the EU will either radically reform itself
Agreed!!
But I honestly don't see how anyone can think that a "BREXIT" can benefit anyone.

If anything, BREXIT will only strengthen the bureaucratic stuff since it doesn't longer needs to care about the UK (again, ...same rules no more power).

Last edited by jens; 07-20-2016 at 03:58 PM.
 
Old 07-20-2016, 03:55 PM   #235
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jens View Post
But I honestly don't see how anyone can think that a "BREXIT" can benefit anyone.
By hopefully taking power from the egregious scum who make the very threats about "following the rules" as you mention above. With any luck Switzerland and Norway will get better deals out of it also.
Just because a cartel exists and leaving it could cause short-term issues doesn't mean that cartel is a good thing.
For all the xenophobic, racist, anti-immigration and other nonsense coming out of the "leave" camp there's been a whole lot of protectionist threats coming out of the "stay".
 
Old 07-20-2016, 07:54 PM   #236
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jens View Post
Agreed!!
But I honestly don't see how anyone can think that a "BREXIT" can benefit anyone.

If anything, BREXIT will only strengthen the bureaucratic stuff since it doesn't longer needs to care about the UK (again, ...same rules no more power).
Obviously, it is impossible for "Europe" not to care about "the UK."

What has obviously happened here is that one of the biggest members of this erstwhile Union has just dealt that Union a crippling "vote of No Confidence." If any other "biggy" did the same, Brussels would be well on its way towards "turning back into ... 'Belgium.'"

The folks who wrote "the Brexit Clause" into that treaty, just to get the thing passed but self-confident that it would never be used, have just been proven wrong by one of the biggest-and-most-important players in the game. Brussels has just been sent to its room without any supper.

What should happen here is "a gigantic Come-To-Jesus™ Moment," in which wise heads need to drink deeply of the well of compromise. "Suck up, swallow your pride, accept what real-people have said about what you've been doing, and ... 'n-e-g-o-t-i-a-t-e, don't d-i-c-t-a-t-e.'"

If Brussels keeps "dictating," soon enough it won't have a Union, and it will be "Belgium," and it will be the front-page lead on the biggest historical ##FAIL since the fall of the Roman Empire. Whatever "European Union" eventually turns out to be, it clearly won't(!) be "The United States of Europe, with its capitol in Brussels, DC."
 
Old 07-21-2016, 08:27 AM   #237
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Originally Posted by sundialsvcs View Post
Obviously, it is impossible for "Europe" not to care about "the UK."

What has obviously happened here is that one of the biggest members of this erstwhile Union has just dealt that Union a crippling "vote of No Confidence." If any other "biggy" did the same, Brussels would be well on its way towards "turning back into ... 'Belgium.'"
You're missing my entire point.
Personally, I *do* care (though I'm very pessimistic about any possible outcome).

Apart from being a big member, the UK is/was also the only real "bad boy" that always criticized the EU from day one.
Once they leave, their political voice will be gone (while still under the same bureaucratic rules if they wish to keep their economy going).
How does that cripple Brussels?

PS: Also note that "Brussels" has nothing to do with Belgium in this context (the two other big ones are Germany and France, both very pro EU).
 
Old 07-21-2016, 11:19 AM   #238
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I don't think that the UK will find itself "locked out of Europe," because I think that this first serious disturbance to the EU's modus operandi up to this point will not be the first.

On both "sides of the Pond," we are seeing trade treaties being used in an attempt to reduce "nation-hood" to "irrelevance." In the US, companies who wanted to build a shale-oil pipeline (not-coincidentally using large amounts of public money to actually do it), now want to sue the United States in a "court" made up entirely of businessmen, in order to force the country to do what their business-plans want. In short, to them, it's irrelevant what any one nation may say.

The concept in Europe was transparently clear from the start: "The United States of Europe," with its capitol in "Brussels, DC." The UK was the first member to reject this. But, I predict, it won't be the last. If this Union is to continue, it must re-define its mission, its authority, its scope and its size.

Although "business" and "trade" are certainly valid and important considerations, they do not supersede nationality. There is no redundancy in this businessmen's dystopia. There is no fault-tolerance. While it's fine to "do your part to put the passport-printers out of business," and even to accept a common currency in addition to(!) your own, if you try to turn all of Europe into "a huge bowl of homogenized milk," you're going to have a very unstable situation. Likewise, if the USA's government, or even the government of a particular US State, says "No" to a business plan, that ruling must "stick." The businessmen can't pre-empt government nor ignore the prerogatives of nations. Instead, they must negotiate. Or maybe, make other plans.

Last edited by sundialsvcs; 07-21-2016 at 11:21 AM.
 
Old 07-22-2016, 11:27 AM   #239
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Originally Posted by sundialsvcs View Post
I don't think that the UK will find itself "locked out of Europe,"
Why?
EU is really *all* about protectionism.
If the UK wishes to continue with Europe after a BREXIT, they 'll have to join one of the old trade unions (their's really no way around this).
Basically, this means following the same bureaucratic trade rules dictated by the EU without having any of its benefits/power/votes (and no, UK isn't the first one).

PS: ... and again, how does this BREXIT benefits anyone? (no philosophy, only facts)

Last edited by jens; 07-22-2016 at 11:49 AM.
 
Old 07-22-2016, 11:59 AM   #240
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Again, you look at it from the "if the UK wants to trade with Europe..." How about "if the EU wants to trade with the UK..."? And they do, as the BDI has made plain. What we will be looking for is the same sort of deal that Canada has. As the world's fifth largest economy and fifth largest military power, we're too big not to deal with.

As for the rest of the world, we've already had the US and Australia preparing for negotiations. Wells Fargo has just given London a vote of confidence by purchasing a new building for their European HQ.
 
  


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