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Old 10-29-2022, 07:27 AM   #16
enorbet
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I'm not very worried that Linux will get "locked down" or "locked out" any time soon. It should be obvious that while some, including Poettering, are focused on the Enterprise market, I think there will be enough rebel coders for quite some time to build the truly Free software and firmware just isn't that hard to hack. Every lock has a key.
 
Old 10-29-2022, 08:41 AM   #17
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On systemd, I believe software should be your servant, not your master. It should do things on my terms, not the reverse.

And I'd like to see systemd when the world's hackers notice it's in all servers and start hacking accordingly.
 
Old 10-29-2022, 10:24 AM   #18
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Once, while I was running Gentoo Linux (which is a source-code based distro) I took the time to eliminate the initrd step completely. I knew exactly which kernel modules were needed, since "initrd" had found them. So, I built a kernel which included the necessary drivers directly within itself, with USB drivers as loadable modules which would be loaded or unloaded on demand. I was basically doing this to find out just how quickly I could make the machine boot up. (I got it down to about six seconds flat.)

Linux distros have a lot of drivers – "DEC token-ring adapter card, anyone?" – but you only need a few of them. They're there because there's no way to know which ones you need. Linux needs to "successfully boot on anything," and this is the laborious process by which it does so.

Last edited by sundialsvcs; 10-29-2022 at 10:27 AM.
 
Old 10-29-2022, 10:52 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sundialsvcs View Post
"DEC token-ring adapter card, anyone?"
Not me.. had to check the wiki. When that was popular, I wasn't even born yet.
Code:
# CONFIG_DECNET is not set
# CONFIG_NET_VENDOR_DEC is not set
 
Old 10-29-2022, 12:36 PM   #20
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Token Ring? Wasn't that an IBM PS/2 thing? That graveyard of ideas that happened when IBM thought they could lead, and everyone would follow? I feel sorry for the guys who wrote OS/2, designed the hardware, and worked their butts off for years only to see it wasted.
 
Old 10-29-2022, 12:40 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by business_kid View Post
Token Ring? Wasn't that an IBM PS/2 thing? That graveyard of ideas that happened when IBM thought they could lead, and everyone would follow? I feel sorry for the guys who wrote OS/2, designed the hardware, and worked their butts off for years only to see it wasted.
I seem to recall that Token Ring was a pretty good protocol at the time and used with coax cables - I think my school used it for their Netware network.
 
Old 10-29-2022, 03:01 PM   #22
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I didn't know enough at the time about network protocols to evaluate it thoroughly, but nobody said anything bad about it. It's just that IBM patented every part of the PS/2 so your profit on compatibles went to them, and waited for pc manufacturers to queue at their doors. Instead, the pc manufacturers made the appropriate finger gesture (One in the US, but 2 in parts of here) and kept building PCs.
 
Old 10-29-2022, 04:27 PM   #23
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"Wasted" is the exactly correct term, business_kid, referring to OS/2. My first GUI beyond a mere DOS shell like PCTools, was OS/2 2.1. Within a few months I joined TeamOS2. When Warp 3 was released I bought it immediately and it was amazing. Warp 4 should have left Win95 in the dust because it beat it on ever level excepting graphical glitz, but then IBM never wanted a SOHO system. The community filled in nicely for Desktop user apps but were in stark opposition to IBM protocols and desires.

When Microsoft's Win95 beat IBM in the marketplace so badly, despite it's being many years ahead of Windows, the suits didn't chalk it off to "We weren't looking for that novice market anyway.", they were humiliated yet again and lost all love for what then was the most flexible, stable and powerful OpSys to date anywhere in the world. That didn't stop them from gloating when it won accolades and polls, but nevertheless didn't incite them to recognize it's actual value when banks, hospitals, flight controllers and other mission critical users refused to give it up and demanded support. They just announced a 10 year plan to phase it out and sold it off. What a waste, indeed!
 
Old 10-30-2022, 06:28 AM   #24
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I tried OS/2 myself back in the day. I liked it, but PCs were a means to an end back then for me. Once the Tech sector had ignored IBM and gotten away with it, they weren't interested in the OS either, superior though it was.

I was working but not rich in those years. I needed a business pc I could also do Electronic hardware work on. The kids wanted a PC for games, which saved on Console games. They wrecked it continually - viruses, OS errors with things like non-standard dlls as part of some games, viruses over irc, you name it. So as all the software was windows, OS/2 didn't get a look in. Besides IBM probably made sure the floppies were not compatible.
 
Old 10-30-2022, 08:09 AM   #25
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Hey business_kid! Actually as much of a hassle as the floppies were there were compensations. Back then not many had CD Burners so the floppies were a means to edit the boot process and for adding/substituting drivers loaded for updating or simply specific hardware support. I still have a (not much used anymore but still working) 64 bit AMD FX-57 system with OS/2 WSeB (basically, Warp 5) on it with a couple drivers from eComStation (mainly audio). Amazingly it can still surf the web with Firefox (at least it did 2 years ago), has a complete included Office suite, Lotus Notes, speech recognition with navigation and dictation that works quite well, and naturally it runs like a scalded cat. I did have to buy a proper file manager from "Clear and Simple" but it fully supports an FX-570 GPU with 3D acceleration and drives exceeding 100GB. The community provided drivers from Dani even make SATA SSDs function and it supports more RAM than the mobo does.

As for Windows stuff, relying on Win 3.11 libraries was a bit of a problem but just like with Linux, I learned to not rely on Windows for almost everything. In fact, OS/2 is how I learned about Linux since the release of emx runtimes made it possible to build and run Linux apps and I replaced the Presentation Manager with Enlightenment.
 
Old 10-30-2022, 09:05 PM   #26
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"Old" technologies have a weird way of sticking around. For example, late last year I walked by a Wells Fargo ATM that had crashed, and there on the screen it was ... "OS/2 Presentation Manager!" Yes, in 2021. IBM parted ways with Microsoft on this point, but they did not abandon their investment in the software technology – some of which was (and still is) quite novel.

"Coax" networking, and the various problems that "token ring" was meant to address, went by the wayside when "Cat-5" technologies had advanced to the point that they clearly deserved to take over. But it was not at all clear at the time that they would, or could, do so.

Last edited by sundialsvcs; 10-30-2022 at 09:08 PM.
 
Old 10-31-2022, 01:52 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sundialsvcs View Post
... there's no way to know which ones you need...
I think: IF you only intend everyone to run a distro (like MLL) under virtualbox, then everybody has the exact same (virtual) Hardware, yes?

Last edited by !!!; 10-31-2022 at 01:53 AM.
 
Old 10-31-2022, 06:23 AM   #28
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For me, It was no contest.

I tried OS/2 in the nineties. I couldn't justify any spare box, so it went.
A friend of mine lived in the country, & had space. When he retired, they took 2 builder's skips full of junk from his place in the country. They're the ships you can't lift, but drag up on low loaders with a crane.

I only had a semi-D, so I was brutal in throwing out junk. OS/2 went out, and all old PCs. I even gave up a service agency because it required more space. I was so lucky that I did, because that lot put through two models of television. The first required travel, storage & parts, but made well; The second was a dud, and bankrupt them. I would have been left with heavy liabilities.

One can still torrent Warp 4.x, & probably 5. But I don't want the antique that will run it.

Last edited by business_kid; 10-31-2022 at 06:24 AM.
 
Old 10-31-2022, 11:34 AM   #29
enorbet
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Check this out http://ecomstation.com/ for OS/2 in 2022. Down but not Out. Also ARCA, another successor, is still in active development in 2022. One could say OS/2 also lives on in all journaling file systems including ext4, and NTFS.

Last edited by enorbet; 10-31-2022 at 11:38 AM.
 
Old 10-31-2022, 12:31 PM   #30
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@!!!: Linux cannot make the assumption that it knows anything about the hardware on which it finds itself now expected to boot. And that is what this pre-boot step is for: to detect the hardware and load the necessary modules so that the rest of the system initialization process can proceed and the system can run. But this step can be omitted if you build a custom kernel which already contains the necessary built-in drivers and loadable modules, as I once did. And, to do that might well be "more hardened."

-----

Obviously, IBM continued to use the technology which they developed, particularly for "secure" applications like ATMs. And, they continue to improve it. But, so far as I know, they no longer attempt to sell it nor any successor directly to the public. Nor do they need to. They own it, and they use it on their hardware, and it works fine. There's certainly something good to be said for owning the OS code that you use in such applications: no royalty payments, and total control.

Last edited by sundialsvcs; 10-31-2022 at 12:35 PM.
 
  


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