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Old 05-07-2019, 01:55 AM   #3121
jsbjsb001
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Alright, I'll play along... what "lie" would that be? Are you saying M$ come up with Linux?
 
Old 05-07-2019, 02:06 AM   #3122
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You claim that Microsoft made a "rip off" of Linux. That does not make sense as Linux is said to be "free as in free speech", so Microsoft does nothing but distribute it as stated in the GPL. How is that a "rip off"?
 
Old 05-07-2019, 04:48 AM   #3123
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I never said Linux wasn't "free", nor did I say that M$ "violates" the GPL either (although, that might be another debate) . The meaning was that M$ are using Linux for their own purposes, that are not for the benefit of Linux. So for example (and as I pretty much said before), why would I pay for Windows to run Linux apps, when I could just download a Linux distro directly to do the same thing, without having to pay for a Windows license? That doesn't make sense - that is what I meant.

So in your "use case", why not just download a Linux distro, or one of the BSD's to run deadpixi's Sam text editor ? Don't get me wrong, do what you want, your choice, but if I want to run an app written for say Linux, then what's the point of using Linux within a different system, just to run a Linux app? I don't get it. Maybe if you're say doing development for Windows and Linux it might make some sense, but other than something like that, then personally it doesn't seem "cost effective" to me personally to be paying for a Windows license just to run a Linux and/or UNIX app(s) within Windows. Even then personally, I'd probably go a VM to do Windows development in instead, or maybe dual-boot if the VM option didn't cut it.
 
Old 05-07-2019, 05:20 AM   #3124
YesItsMe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jsbjsb001 View Post
The meaning was that M$ are using Linux for their own purposes, that are not for the benefit of Linux.
Most people on LinsuxQuestions.org use Linsux for their own purposes, not for the benefit of Linsux. Including you, I guess. So what you do is a "rip off"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jsbjsb001 View Post
why would I pay for Windows to run Linux apps, when I could just download a Linux distro directly to do the same thing, without having to pay for a Windows license?
I haven't paid for Windows in many years. My latest few Windows installations came as a free update or even preinstalled.

However, I agree with you that, if you want to run Linux applications, you should run an actual Linux distribution. Just like you should run an actual Windows instead of Wine if you need a Windows application. You don't use Wine, do you?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jsbjsb001 View Post
why not just download a Linux distro, or one of the BSD's to run deadpixi's Sam text editor ?
Because I work as a full-time Windows software developer and my employer would prefer to have an all-Windows client network for rather good reasons. I don't always have the choice, so the WSL is a relatively good option at work.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jsbjsb001 View Post
what's the point of using Linux within a different system, just to run a Linux app? I don't get it.
I only care about the plan9port software, honestly. As there is no maintained Windows version of any part of it anymore, the Linux version is as close as I can get within the company's allowed hardware pool.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jsbjsb001 View Post
Even then personally, I'd probably go a VM to do Windows development in instead, or maybe dual-boot if the VM option didn't cut it.
A VM would make interaction with my Windows development environment even harder, so that's out of the question. Dual-booting is discouraged and I would not be able to access the full-Windows (Active Directory, strict firewall rules etc.) company intranet. Believe me, I would never try to run a Linsux on my precious Windows if I had the choice ...

Last edited by YesItsMe; 05-07-2019 at 05:22 AM.
 
Old 05-07-2019, 08:34 AM   #3125
jsbjsb001
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YesItsMe View Post
Most people on LinsuxQuestions.org use Linsux for their own purposes, not for the benefit of Linsux. Including you, I guess. So what you do is a "rip off"?
M$ is a corporation, not a person, so you can't really compare the two.

I'm sure you don't honestly believe that M$ "just wants in", do you? You really think they come up with Azure Sphere OS and WSL, because they "love Linux" ? And I'm the pope, they have always been in it for the $$$, and always will be, particularly when they have shareholders to make an even bigger profit for.

Quote:
...
You don't use Wine, do you?
No, not for many, many years now. While I will admit that Doom 3 (from memory) worked even better than what it did in Windows itself running under Wine (that's no word of a lie either, it honestly did, and yes, even I was shocked), in almost all cases, there are Linux equivalents for Windows apps, so while Wine had it's place back in the day, it's largely outlived it's usefulness nowadays. I have a PS4 for my gaming needs, although I do have 0ad installed, and I will admit, haven't done much gaming lately. So at least we agree on something

Quote:
Because I work as a full-time Windows software developer and my employer would prefer to have an all-Windows client network for rather good reasons. I don't always have the choice, so the WSL is a relatively good option at work.

I only care about the plan9port software, honestly. As there is no maintained Windows version of any part of it anymore, the Linux version is as close as I can get within the company's allowed hardware pool.

A VM would make interaction with my Windows development environment even harder, so that's out of the question. Dual-booting is discouraged and I would not be able to access the full-Windows (Active Directory, strict firewall rules etc.) company intranet. Believe me, I would never try to run a Linsux on my precious Windows if I had the choice ...
Well, it is what it is. And as I said before, in that case, there would be some sense in WSL.

And by the way, I didn't write Window$, or Winblows, so that's Linux, not "Linsux". Why do you even bother with Linux if you don't like it?
 
Old 05-07-2019, 08:41 AM   #3126
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Microsoft does these thing to compete, period. As others have said, they are in it for the $. They want to make the Windows 10 platform more useful, even for folks administrating Linux so those folks will buy Windows 10 instead of admin'ing from a Linux platform. Their only motivation is $ and to eliminate competition. They have always operated in this way. They seem more open source friendly now, but who knows if this is a ruse? They own github, they own the mono project. I still don't trust them but maybe I am just being paranoid.
 
Old 05-07-2019, 09:34 AM   #3127
YesItsMe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jsbjsb001 View Post
M$ is a corporation, not a person, so you can't really compare the two.
Only corporations can "rip off" a thing, persons can't? Tell me more...

Quote:
Originally Posted by jsbjsb001 View Post
I'm sure you don't honestly believe that M$ "just wants in", do you?
Of course not, a two-way interoperability with Linsux (or rather, a counterpart to Wine) will probably also help the sales. But how does that relate to the term "rip off" when we're talking about presumably free software? You still failed to answer that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jsbjsb001 View Post
You really think they come up with Azure Sphere OS and WSL, because they "love Linux" ?
I don't care why they do that. I never said they stopped being a company like Red Hat, Novell and Canonical which only care about your money. Still, using "free software" in order to provide more free services for your own customers does not "rip off" said "free software". By the way, did you know that Microsoft has the largest codebase on GitHub? Such a rip off!

Quote:
Originally Posted by jsbjsb001 View Post
And I'm the pope, they have always been in it for the $$$, and always will be, particularly when they have shareholders to make an even bigger profit for.
Your profile says you're using CentOS. Why exactly does Red Hat pay for that - because it loves you or Linsux? Haha, no. They have always been in it for the $$$, and always will be, particularly when they have shareholders to make an even bigger profit for. They totally rip off Linsux!!11!

What was your point again?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jsbjsb001 View Post
there are Linux equivalents for Windows apps
Still waiting for a good alternative to Affinity's and/or Adobe's and/or Corel's photo software. Gimp? Inkscape?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jsbjsb001 View Post
So at least we agree on something
Eww.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jsbjsb001 View Post
in that case, there would be some sense in WSL.
Yup.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jsbjsb001 View Post
And by the way, I didn't write Window$, or Winblows, so that's Linux, not "Linsux".
It's also "MS", not "M$".

Quote:
Originally Posted by jsbjsb001 View Post
Why do you even bother with Linux if you don't like it?
I have to. There is no ath10k firmware for superior Unices yet.


edit:
Off for the day, take your time.

Last edited by YesItsMe; 05-07-2019 at 09:38 AM.
 
Old 05-07-2019, 10:31 AM   #3128
jsbjsb001
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YesItsMe View Post
Only corporations can "rip off" a thing, persons can't? Tell me more...
I never said people can't "rip-off" things, normally that would be called "stealing" or "theft". Since Linux is GPL licensed, then provided M$ doesn't charge for it, they can use it, the same as you can use it (or not use it for that matter).

Quote:
Of course not, a two-way interoperability with Linsux (or rather, a counterpart to Wine) will probably also help the sales.
Warmer.

Quote:
But how does that relate to the term "rip off" when we're talking about presumably free software? You still failed to answer that.
I've already explained the context in which I used that term.

Quote:
I don't care why they do that. I never said they stopped being a company like Red Hat, Novell and Canonical which only care about your money. Still, using "free software" in order to provide more free services for your own customers does not "rip off" said "free software".
Red Hat for one, has always developed an open-source OS, not a closed-source proprietary OS. So you're once again comparing apples and oranges by comparing Red Hat to M$.

Quote:
By the way, did you know that Microsoft has the largest codebase on GitHub? Such a rip off!
And why do you think they bought Github? Probably for the same reason they bought Nokia.

Quote:
Your profile says you're using CentOS. Why exactly does Red Hat pay for that - because it loves you or Linsux? Haha, no. They have always been in it for the $$$, and always will be, particularly when they have shareholders to make an even bigger profit for. They totally rip off Linsux!!11!

What was your point again?
Yes, I am using CentOS, and yes, that is the free version of RHEL. Once again, you're comparing apples and oranges, as I said above. I think it's fair to say that M$ has used (and likely still is using) far more dirty tricks and tactics than probably Red Hat, etc combined ever have. I'm not required to pay a single cent for CentOS anymore than anyone else is. The GPL doesn't permit charging money for the software itself, Red Hat for one charges for the support provided to paying customers, M$ charges for the software itself, that's the difference here.

Quote:
Still waiting for a good alternative to Affinity's and/or Adobe's and/or Corel's photo software. Gimp? Inkscape?
And what's wrong with Gimp? It's a highly recommended alternative to Photoshop, and has even been ported to your beloved Windows...

Quote:
...
I have to. There is no ath10k firmware for superior Unices yet.
So if someone said you have to jump off a cliff, would you do it? No ath10k firmware for OpenBSD yet? But there is for Linux, what a shame. I'll bet that must piss you off


Quote:
edit:
Off for the day, take your time.
That's ok, I thought I'd give you something to reply to straight away, enjoy your afternoon/evening
 
Old 05-07-2019, 11:13 AM   #3129
hazel
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jsbjsb001 View Post
I never said people can't "rip-off" things, normally that would be called "stealing" or "theft". Since Linux is GPL licensed, then provided M$ doesn't charge for it, they can use it, the same as you can use it (or not use it for that matter).
................
The GPL doesn't permit charging money for the software itself, Red Hat for one charges for the support provided to paying customers, M$ charges for the software itself, that's the difference here.
As far as I can remember, that's not true. GPL allows you to do what you like with software including selling it for a profit. What you are not allowed to do is curtail the rights of your customers to do what they like with the software.

So you can sell Linux installation discs to people who don't know how to make their own and you can sell customised commercial Linux systems with or without maintenance thrown in. But if you charge unreasonable prices for these things, any of your customers is entitled to copy what you gave them and sell it for less or give it away for nothing. This means that reasonable profits are allowed but unreasonable ones are self-defeating.

Linux is free as in free speech; it does not have to be free as in free beer.
 
Old 05-08-2019, 03:18 AM   #3130
YesItsMe
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Originally Posted by jsbjsb001 View Post
And why do you think they bought Github? Probably for the same reason they bought Nokia.
GitHub does not make smartphones.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jsbjsb001 View Post
And what's wrong with Gimp? It's a highly recommended alternative to Photoshop, and has even been ported to your beloved Windows...
It is your only choice on inferior operating systems. Neither its feature set nor its usability come close to what Photoshop does.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jsbjsb001 View Post
No ath10k firmware for OpenBSD yet? But there is for Linux, what a shame. I'll bet that must piss you off
It does.
 
Old 05-08-2019, 05:06 AM   #3131
jsbjsb001
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YesItsMe View Post
GitHub does not make smartphones.
No, they don't, but that wasn't the point either...

Quote:
It is your only choice on inferior operating systems. Neither its feature set nor its usability come close to what Photoshop does.
You always have the choice not to use Linux if that's how you feel about it. From what I've read, Gimp does come very close to Photoshop in it's feature set. Whenever I've used it, there hasn't been a problem. But again, you still have a choice...

Quote:
It does.
Why not just use hardware supported by whatever system you wish to use instead? You have that choice too, something that Linux gives you plenty of, and open-source software in general...

FWIW, I did find this, which does seem to be for what you mention, based on the filename's here. I don't know if it's any good to you, and it does mention FreeBSD in the first link there, but it may work. Worth a look I guess...

EDIT: There's also this that may point you in the right direction, but I haven't read the whole thread tho.

Last edited by jsbjsb001; 05-08-2019 at 05:10 AM. Reason: addition
 
Old 05-08-2019, 05:56 AM   #3132
YesItsMe
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Originally Posted by jsbjsb001 View Post
No, they don't, but that wasn't the point either...
The point was that no company buys another company without hope for profit, I know. So how does that affect you?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jsbjsb001 View Post
You always have the choice not to use Linux if that's how you feel about it.
This is correct.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jsbjsb001 View Post
From what I've read, Gimp does come very close to Photoshop in it's feature set.
It does not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jsbjsb001 View Post
But again, you still have a choice...
Yes: Limiting myself to inferior multimedia software or using a better operating system. Which will, to come back to the original point, even let me run Plan 9 software if I need that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jsbjsb001 View Post
Why not just use hardware supported by whatever system you wish to use instead?
Because my funds are limited.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jsbjsb001 View Post
FWIW, I did find this, which does seem to be for what you mention
I know about that, the developer said it was written for inclusion into FreeBSD "when it's ready", and usually the other BSDs and illumos take their firmware from FreeBSD if the license is acceptable. However, it seems that it is not "ready" just yet: athp is missing.
 
Old 05-08-2019, 11:06 AM   #3133
jsbjsb001
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YesItsMe View Post
The point was that no company buys another company without hope for profit, I know. So how does that affect you?
Well it affects everyone using Linux if it puts M$ in a position to take away people's choices. But the point was, it's not just about one person, a company doesn't but another to only affect one user. There is clearly a pattern, which I'd think would/should be obvious to you, even if "you don't care why they buy Github, Nokia, or whoever else".

Quote:
It does not.
Once again, not from what I've read, which is more than just one site. It's also based on actually using Gimp myself, and I see many features you would find in Photoshop and alike. And "it does not" means nothing, anymore than "it does so" means anything, you don't say how "it does not"...

Quote:
Yes: Limiting myself to inferior multimedia software or using a better operating system. Which will, to come back to the original point, even let me run Plan 9 software if I need that.
Once again, it's called choice - so it's up to you what you want to use. The same as I'll use what I find best for my needs, and I cannot think of a single thing I would need to use Windows for, or anything that Windows could do "better" than Linux in respect to my own needs and uses. So please yourself, it doesn't make any difference to me what you use or don't use.

At the end of the day, while this is the Windows v Linux thread, this is still a Linux forum; so I wouldn't think it would be wise to goto to a Mac forum to try and convince them to use Linux instead, given that it wouldn't be logical to assume that they are going to move to Linux just because I said "it's better". So I'm not sure how you think it's logical to assume that people here are going to move to Windows just because you think it's "better". So if you are trying to convince people here of that, I'd suggest you're likely going to be disappointed.
 
Old 05-08-2019, 12:36 PM   #3134
YesItsMe
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Well it affects everyone using Linux if it puts M$ in a position to take away people's choices.
What exactly did Microsoft take away from Linsux users by buying GitHub? Are you suddenly unable to publish your broken code online or something?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jsbjsb001 View Post
At the end of the day, while this is the Windows v Linux thread, this is still a Linux forum
I did not start the fire.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jsbjsb001 View Post
so I wouldn't think it would be wise to goto to a Mac forum to try and convince them to use Linux instead
Interestingly, too many Linsuxians are showing up in Windows forums and bragging about their operating system choices. Why is that so?
 
Old 05-09-2019, 12:17 AM   #3135
jsbjsb001
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YesItsMe View Post
What exactly did Microsoft take away from Linsux users by buying GitHub? Are you suddenly unable to publish your broken code online or something?
I think you know what I was saying, so if you need me to explain it anymore, there's no point in telling you. I've never even tried to upload any code to Github (or any of the others), nor do I even have an account with Github (or any of the others). Not sure why you feel the need to get personal, as I wasn't being personal. And it's a bit rich to accuse someone of having "broken code" when they've said nothing about any particular code, let alone trying to upload any to Github or where-ever else. Also, since I once again don't even have an account with Github, how am I suppose to upload anything to Github ? For the record, I'm not sure I would be signing up to Github anyway.

Quote:
I did not start the fire.
That wasn't the point of what I was saying, and you know it. So nice try.

Quote:
Interestingly, too many Linsuxians are showing up in Windows forums and bragging about their operating system choices. Why is that so?
And why are there numerous threads here about people asking for distro choices to escape Winblows 10 ?
 
  


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