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Old 01-10-2019, 06:41 PM   #3001
jamison20000e
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YesItsMe View Post
Nobody has to try systemd.
I don't have to touch a glowing iron to know that it might be inconveniently hot.
Clearly "Linux" does and isn't windows trying out Linux and\or it's uses\ers*

Last edited by jamison20000e; 01-11-2019 at 06:08 PM.
 
Old 01-10-2019, 06:42 PM   #3002
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You and I alone are not we!

Last edited by jamison20000e; 01-10-2019 at 06:43 PM.
 
Old 01-11-2019, 04:56 AM   #3003
Lysander666
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cynwulf View Post
You also may appreciate the comments from someone who actually has a clue what he's talking about and worked in the industry ( ):

https://forums.freebsd.org/threads/l...1/#post-353891
(I wondered where I had got my "trail blazed in the 90s" thing from ( ), it sprung to mind and I knew it seemed familiar - I will edit accordingly - credit where it's due, etc - it's absolutely bang on though)
https://forums.freebsd.org/threads/l...1/#post-353824

https://forums.freebsd.org/threads/h...7/#post-261059

https://forums.freebsd.org/threads/g...7/#post-396202

And ESR recently posted at the Devuan forums, he also wants to avoid systemd, but doesn't seem that keen on Devuan either. The forum is probably a bit too ideological and fanboy driven.

http://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?id=2537
Interesting posts, always happy to read intelligent, thought-out proposals or responses. The idea that 'systemd is what we have so we just have to live with it' is probably unavoidable dependent on what side of the server one is working on. One thing is clear - it's here to stay and it's not getting out. The only thing one can do is support those distros which don't use it. Those that have adopted it are already 'lost'.

Having said that, I can count on one hand the amount of non-systemd distros I would trust, and Devuan is not one of them. I don't know who ESR is [and the opening of his post there is rather ostentatious regardless of who he is] but I would agree in not adopting Devuan. I also agree about the forum - most Linux fora these days, in fact. There seems to be little expertise around and I'm in two minds about trusting some of the people closely involved with Devuan.

I think that's really it at the end of the day: I completely trust those involved with Slackware and whom I've spoken with on these forums, both the developers and the seasoned users. Their focus is determined and their vision unwavering, something I see less and less in the Linuxsphere, and something that is becoming increasingly absent for those distros who've adopted systemd. It's the difference between an athlete who's in the zone, constantly improving themselves and an overweight, raconteur ex-runner bellowing their former glories from the sofa between mouthfuls of Cheetos.
 
Old 01-11-2019, 05:25 AM   #3004
jsbjsb001
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While I don't wish to discuss systemd yet again, other than to say; I'm neither a fan or a "hater" of it. Anyways, and just for a little perspective on the latest bugs: https://www.zdnet.com/article/new-li...les-uncovered/

I like this part:

Quote:
...
How bad is this trio of trouble? With any of these a local user can gain root privileges.
...
Almost forgot:

Quote:
In the meantime, Red Hat has already released patches for 16864 and 16865, the most serious of the security holes.
I would also remind people that you name the software, it's very likely there have been bugs discovered with it at some point, so it's *not just* systemd. This also includes things like OpenBSD too, funny how some members seem to totally ignore those bugs...

carry on...

Last edited by jsbjsb001; 01-11-2019 at 05:27 AM. Reason: additions
 
Old 01-11-2019, 05:31 AM   #3005
Lysander666
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jsbjsb001 View Post

I would also remind people that you name the software, it's very likely there have been bugs discovered with it at some point, so it's *not just* systemd. This also includes things like OpenBSD too, funny how some members seem to totally ignore those bugs...

carry on...
Indeed, but surely the point with systemd is it's not just any old package, it's a behemoth that acts as userpace in the majority of distros. Sure, one may not worry about bugs/exploits on one's desktop as much, but in larger companies - and with all of the top 500 supercomputers in the world now running some variant of Linux - it's a little more concerning.
 
Old 01-11-2019, 05:55 AM   #3006
Pastychomper
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lysander666 View Post
Having said that, I can count on one hand the amount of non-systemd distros I would trust, and Devuan is not one of them. I don't know who ESR is [and the opening of his post there is rather ostentatious regardless of who he is] but I would agree in not adopting Devuan..
I'm pretty sure it's Eric S. Raymond, well known as a proponent of free software and one who understands the ecosystem well, not so well known for social skills or excessive humility. I'm inclined to trust his judgement on Devuan, much as I hope it succeeds as a distro.
 
Old 01-11-2019, 06:04 AM   #3007
Lysander666
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pastychomper View Post
I'm pretty sure it's Eric S. Raymond, well known as a proponent of free software and one who understands the ecosystem well, not so well known for social skills or excessive humility. I'm inclined to trust his judgement on Devuan, much as I hope it succeeds as a distro.
If it is Eric Raymond then that's great, however, I was a little put off by his intro of, "look it's me guys, take notice etc". No matter who it is, even if it were Linus Torvalds posting, it's a little arrogant as you noted.

That said, I have read The Cathedral and the Bazaar and have cited it often in my own research. As stated, I don't trust Devuan, neither did my mentor, and if Eric Raymond also doesn't then it just adds another string to that bow.

Last edited by Lysander666; 01-11-2019 at 06:06 AM.
 
Old 01-11-2019, 06:15 AM   #3008
YesItsMe
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I love how people call finally releasing fixes for eight year old bugs "already patched".
 
Old 01-11-2019, 10:03 AM   #3009
cynwulf
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lysander666 View Post
Having said that, I can count on one hand the amount of non-systemd distros I would trust, and Devuan is not one of them. I don't know who ESR is [and the opening of his post there is rather ostentatious regardless of who he is] but I would agree in not adopting Devuan. I also agree about the forum - most Linux fora these days, in fact. There seems to be little expertise around and I'm in two minds about trusting some of the people closely involved with Devuan.
It's not half as bad as it appears, but there are certain people who are brimming over with certain ideological views and use the site as a channel for those views.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lysander666 View Post
I think that's really it at the end of the day: I completely trust those involved with Slackware and whom I've spoken with on these forums, both the developers and the seasoned users.
Slackware is a known, trusted piece of established quality and consistency - with a considerable pedigree and standing in Linuxland.

Devuan however is a bermuda triangle of uncertainties.

It's in a seemingly indefinite limbo of having Debian as an upstream, so it's still not a "fork" and working around Debian's systemd entanglements (in that respect it's similar to something like antix).

It is however slowly gaining some traction, it has defied the odds (it's certainly lived far longer than I expected...), but it's doing so as a Debian derivative, rather than an independent project.

I'm just not sold on Debian being "forkable". If you think of a typical Linux distribution you think of Debian, SUSE, Red Hat, whatever...

In every case those are big projects, with lots of people and often corporate backers being involved. To fork those projects you have to "fork" all the people, resources, infrastructure, documentation, websites, etc, etc... it's a huge undertaking...

It's not like forking something like e.g. sysvinit, where one person can write the code, maintain it and publish it.

Something like Slackware is technically a project which could be forked. It would take a few individuals and a lot of their own time and expense to get started, but is feasible at least - as it would not involve the maintenance of tens of thousands of packagers and a whole host of infrastructure etc, etc, etc...
 
Old 01-11-2019, 10:49 AM   #3010
Lysander666
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cynwulf View Post
It's not half as bad as it appears, but there are certain people who are brimming over with certain ideological views and use the site as a channel for those views.
Indeed, but reading that topic again, it seems like ER [or ESR] was driven out by the attitude of some posters in that thread. He hasn't posted since.

He does note that there's a hangover community attitude from Debian. All I can say is that a lot of the more mature posters out there don't snap at constructive criticism and advice from those more knowledgeable. They certainly don't take it personally.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cynwulf View Post
Devuan however is a bermuda triangle of uncertainties.
As are all distros apart from about 7 or 8 of them [as far as I'm concerned, anyway]. And that number gets split in half if we factor in community usefulness [or uselessness].
 
Old 01-11-2019, 11:17 AM   #3011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lysander666 View Post
Indeed, but reading that topic again, it seems like ER [or ESR] was driven out by the attitude of some posters in that thread. He hasn't posted since.
Yes it would certainly appear so - but as you've noted, he didn't exactly arrive there with the best attitude either.

I don't really get how he came to the conclusion that Devuan was going to be some serious commercial venture to take on and displace and overtake systemd - so essentially taking on Red Hat, Ubuntu and SUSE as well as all the other non commercial offerings who also adopted it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lysander666 View Post
He does note that there's a hangover community attitude from Debian. All I can say is that a lot of the more mature posters out there don't snap at constructive criticism and advice from those more knowledgeable. They certainly don't take it personally.
Yes it was all very snappy and overly defensive, but they have been "under fire" from various trolls both there and on their mailing lists for a few years. But still, I agree there is no excuse for it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lysander666 View Post
As are all distros apart from about 7 or 8 of them [as far as I'm concerned, anyway]. And that number gets split in half if we factor in community usefulness [or uselessness].
Well yes, but Devuan more so. It was never clear if those "developing" it were in for the long haul and at one point it wasn't really clear who was maintaining it - except for some self styled "collective" of "veteran UNIX administrators".

It has attracted a lot of hangers on - i.e. those without any real ability, but who are very much into the ideological side of the argument (systemd is a nefarious plot, etc). About as plot like as it gets, is that it's a Red Hat backed venture clearly aimed at furthering Red Hat's commercial interests - and you don't really need to get deep into any conspiracy stories to work that one out. The person I quoted at the FreeBSD forums is of the same opinion, as are several others there and elsewhere and that person is as level headed and anti conspiracy/tin foil as they come.

//edit:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lysander666 View Post
You didn't miss the massive upset re the store a few months ago, did you?
I certainly did. Link?

Last edited by cynwulf; 01-11-2019 at 11:44 AM.
 
Old 01-11-2019, 03:25 PM   #3012
ehartman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cynwulf View Post
I certainly did. Link?
Look at message #8 in the "Donating to Slackware" discussion.
 
Old 01-11-2019, 06:05 PM   #3013
jamison20000e
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Anyone remember the episode of The Andy Griffith Show where the farmer didn't want his kid going school-ever because they had to work the farm... it's never your lawn, it's a planet but at least we got to eat.

Last edited by jamison20000e; 01-11-2019 at 06:09 PM.
 
Old 01-14-2019, 11:52 AM   #3014
cynwulf
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ehartman View Post
Look at message #8 in the "Donating to Slackware" discussion.
Seems to be the fate of the small projects when compared with bigger corporate backed ones.

The "business model" of optical media is now very dated and has little appeal anymore. As someone brought up in thread, if you don't live in the US you're buying something and paying more for the carriage - plus, as has been revealed, a third party is creaming off the rewards...

PV probably needs to make some small changes to the Slackware website and list all the donors there and give the business/corporate/large individual donors the usual bronze, silver, gold, platinum type ranking, plus put up their logo and links and of course get a visible donations page up. Anyway, probably already covered extensively in that epic sized thread...

Sad situation.
 
Old 01-14-2019, 12:03 PM   #3015
Lysander666
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cynwulf View Post

PV probably needs to make some small changes to the Slackware website and list all the donors there and give the business/corporate/large individual donors the usual bronze, silver, gold, platinum type ranking, plus put up their logo and links and of course get a visible donations page up. Anyway, probably already covered extensively in that epic sized thread...

Sad situation.
Actually I don't think anyone made that suggestion. He has received a lot of donations though, and it has made an important difference to his personal life, from what I can gather.

People can buy through his CafePress account. It's been noted that people don't give a stuff for optical media - what people basically want is coffee mugs and t shirts. Maybe stickers. Maybe a keyring? The Slackware logo would also look good on an Oreo [Sloreo™].
 
  


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