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Old 11-27-2018, 04:50 AM   #2956
YesItsMe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jsbjsb001 View Post
I'm sure you're smart enough to know that the BSD's are simply not as popular as Linux.
One of the Linux community's major mistakes was the assumption that it would be a good achievement to invite as many low-level users as possible. Of course that led to an influx of dumb people asking dumb questions. The development team of no other system, except macOS maybe , has made a similar mistake.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jsbjsb001 View Post
Windows isn't popular because it's a good system - it's popular because M$ signed up enough PC manufacturers to pre-load a copy of it on to at least 99% or 99-ish % of all new PC's and such.
I really doubt these numbers. There's always macOS.
And why don't they just buy one of the oh-so-great preinstalled Linux laptops then? Right: because there is nothing that Linux would do better for them. It is a usability hell.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jsbjsb001 View Post
anyone with enough knowledge can find ways around that
You mean, like you can do in Windows with enough knowledge?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jsbjsb001 View Post
I once again very seriously doubt and utterly doubt that Google for one (among many, many, many others) would be running on Linux if it was a "toy system".
There are good reasons why Google writes its own Linux replacement.
 
Old 11-27-2018, 05:11 AM   #2957
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YesItsMe View Post
One of the Linux community's major mistakes was the assumption that it would be a good achievement to invite as many low-level users as possible. Of course that led to an influx of dumb people asking dumb questions. The development team of no other system, except macOS maybe , has made a similar mistake.
While I don't actually totally disagree, it's also important to remember that a system (any OS) without users = a dead system.

Quote:
I really doubt these numbers. There's always macOS.
And why don't they just buy one of the oh-so-great preinstalled Linux laptops then? Right: because there is nothing that Linux would do better for them. It is a usability hell.
Yeah, there is also MacOS, but you would have to admit that Windows by far is pre-installed on many more machines than MacOS (not saying there is anything wrong with MacOS mind you). Also, before Apple moved to Intel-based hardware, MacOS only ran on Apple's hardware. To be clear: we're talking about when you buy a PC, not if you have built it yourself (like I did with the very machine I'm using right now).

Quote:
You mean, like you can do in Windows with enough knowledge?
Replacing Windows OS components? Without permission from M$? That = them suing the pants off of you, no such problem with open-source software tho.

Quote:
There are good reasons why Google writes its own Linux replacement.
I take it you mean ChromeOS? Which is still a Linux based system, and not a Windows based system.
 
Old 11-27-2018, 05:50 AM   #2958
YesItsMe
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We're actually talking on a similar level. macOS is one of the few operating systems with a worse security and a much worse desktop "experience" than Linux. Unless you own an iPhone, of course.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jsbjsb001 View Post
While I don't actually totally disagree, it's also important to remember that a system (any OS) without users = a dead system.
Even TempleOS is not really "dead".
In my opinion, you cannot have a good system with many users unless you don't listen to their wishes. Try to cater both your computer-illiterate grandmother and your IT nerd uncle with the same system. Good luck. (And Linux has really shifted towards computer-illiterate grandmothers today.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by jsbjsb001 View Post
we're talking about when you buy a PC, not if you have built it yourself (like I did with the very machine I'm using right now).
Then why don't Linux laptop vendors take off?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jsbjsb001 View Post
no such problem with open-source software tho.
That's funny, because I use a lot of open-source software on Windows. In fact, Microsoft would even allow me to replace the default desktop environment without any license violations. But the Explorer's desktop is quite nice, only the file manager sucks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jsbjsb001 View Post
I take it you mean ChromeOS?
I mean Fuchsia.
 
Old 11-27-2018, 07:32 AM   #2959
jsbjsb001
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YesItsMe View Post
We're actually talking on a similar level. macOS is one of the few operating systems with a worse security and a much worse desktop "experience" than Linux. Unless you own an iPhone, of course.
No, don't have an iPhone myself. I can't say I'm a MacOS user either, so I can't really say anymore than that.

Quote:
Even TempleOS is not really "dead".
In my opinion, you cannot have a good system with many users unless you don't listen to their wishes. Try to cater both your computer-illiterate grandmother and your IT nerd uncle with the same system. Good luck. (And Linux has really shifted towards computer-illiterate grandmothers today.)
I must say, I find that quite an interesting perspective. Without typing half a page worth of a reply, I'll give you an example;

I was over a mates place last week, he took the cover off of his desktop, and even after I warned him, he still plugs one of the powerlines from the power supply into what looked like front panel USB. Why? Because if the line is there, it should be plugged into something. Needless to say, that machine doesn't even POST anymore, let alone do anything else after that. But he thinks he knows, when in actual fact (and I don't mean to insult him by saying this) he doesn't have a clue of what he's on about when it comes to computers or IT in general - but he thinks he knows a few things. That same powerline didn't even look like it was plugged in either - it was half plugged in. You know what's worse don't you? He doesn't just have one desktop, he's got at least two, if not three desktops.

I do agree that there is a historical shift upon us in relation to the type of users we see using things like Linux. Another point is that, many people these days are so used to technology (and using it) that, as long as it works for them, they don't care how it works, the OS involved, etc.

Quote:
Then why don't Linux laptop vendors take off?
For the same reason I was talking about before - M$ has most of the desktop and laptop markets. Windows is likely what you will get if you buy one, and people like to use things that are familiar to them, which is likely going to be Windows.

If I ask three people in the street where I live what Windows is, they would at least be able to say something like "oh, that's that program you have on the computer". Ask them what Linux is, "huh?, I don't know, what's that?"

Quote:
That's funny, because I use a lot of open-source software on Windows. In fact, Microsoft would even allow me to replace the default desktop environment without any license violations. But the Explorer's desktop is quite nice, only the file manager sucks.
I was talking about changing Windows source code - which only M$ has the legal right to do. Because it's still THEIR property and not yours. Their EULA makes this clear - you are effectively "renting" Windows.

Quote:
I mean Fuchsia.
Fair enough. I've never heard of that system before, so I don't know.
 
Old 11-27-2018, 08:11 AM   #2960
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jsbjsb001 View Post
No, don't have an iPhone myself.
Neither do I - but I heard that macOS is much more awesome to use with an iPhone than both Windows and Linux. Well, no wonders here, I guess.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jsbjsb001 View Post
Another point is that, many people these days are so used to technology (and using it) that, as long as it works for them, they don't care how it works, the OS involved, etc.
So if Windows works for most people, why are some other people (including a few on LQ) still trying to force-feed them Linux?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jsbjsb001 View Post
For the same reason I was talking about before - M$ has most of the desktop and laptop markets. Windows is likely what you will get if you buy one, and people like to use things that are familiar to them, which is likely going to be Windows.
So if Windows works for most people, why are some other people (including a few on LQ) still trying to force-feed them Linux?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jsbjsb001 View Post
I was talking about changing Windows source code - which only M$ has the legal right to do.
Oh, come on. Please finally stop using dollar signs to indicate commercial companies. No Linux developer can live off voluntary donations either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jsbjsb001 View Post
Because it's still THEIR property and not yours. Their EULA makes this clear - you are effectively "renting" Windows.
Linux is Linus Torvalds's copyrighted and trademarked property. The GPL makes everything you modify in it his property as well. You are effectively "renting" the right to use and distribute Linux.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jsbjsb001 View Post
Fair enough. I've never heard of that system before, so I don't know.
TL;DR: Google found that Linux sucks so bad that they decided to write a new Android from scratch, at least that's what it currently looks like.
 
Old 11-27-2018, 09:07 AM   #2961
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jsbjsb001 View Post
For the same reason I was talking about before - M$ has most of the desktop and laptop markets. Windows is likely what you will get if you buy one, and people like to use things that are familiar to them, which is likely going to be Windows.
It's called "legacy". Windows (note that I do not use silly abbreviations) is the software equivalent of the qwerty keyboard. Qwerty isn't a good keymap for English; in fact it's a lousy keymap. Its original purpose was actually to slow typists down by putting letters that commonly occur together (for example Q and U) as far apart as possible. This was done because mechanical typewriters often got their levers tangled up when typing was too fast.

Once we had electronic keyboards, that wasn't a problem any more and it was easy to design a better keymap (the Dvorak keyboard). But who uses Dvorak? Hardly anybody. If you use YesItsMe's logic, that would have to mean that Dvorak is a bad keymap. Of course the real reason that nobody uses Dvorak is because nobody knows where the keys are on a Dvorak keyboard. Even people who aren't much use as typists (I type with one finger) know where the keys are on a qwerty keyboard.

Because everyone uses qwerty, everyone wants to go on using qwerty. Because everyone uses Windows, everyone wants to go on using Windows. Every PC you buy has Windows on it so everyone who ever learned to use a PC learned Windows. The dead weight of legacy will keep Windows going long after we are dust.
 
Old 11-27-2018, 09:11 AM   #2962
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I don't think the influx of "low skilled users" was necessarily the "Linux community's" mistake as such. This was a movement/mindset began in the earlier part of the last decade by certain distributions and individuals. Canonical Ltd, for example, famously set out to increase "market share" at the expense of MS Windows. This began the days of "misleading marketing" (which should have no place in a FOSS project), getting woefully inept users onboard and deceiving them that rebranded brown Debian unstable could do everything Windows can.

Fast forward to the present date and you still have the same OS for the masses who don't care as the primary OS on x86 desktop/laptop systems and a Linux kernel based OS dominating smartphones/tablets. The day of the Linux desktop, as envisaged, was never even on the horizon. This is because there was never any need to try to reinvent MS Windows or lure Windows users under false pretences.

In the FOSS world today, corporations are still firmly in the driving seat, moreso than ever before. GPL has been circumvented, developers employed or paid off or if all else fails patent trolling still works. Those projects without corporate backing falter, the balance has been upset irreparably.

Whereas users in the late 90's used an x86 PC with dial up modem and MSIE and were at the mercy of Microsoft - the billions of present day smartphone users are the thralls of google inc, living in a 1984 like scenario which even Orwell couldn't have dreamt up.

Anyway...

Fuschia is probably also very much about disentanglement from GPL. It seems to be all 3 clause BSD, MIT and Apache 2 licensed from what I've read about it thus far.

Android, as it stands and as already discussed in this thread, has "layers" of licencing, where permissive licensed code is used as a shield between GPL (Linux kernel) and proprietary code (app developers, etc).

Fuschia is clearly an effort to resolve this. As I understand it, it's a microkernel based OS?

So yes, the Android era is probably entering the twilight years, but it's just not very surprising. Like any embedded Linux device, Android was just a means to an end - in that it broke google into the smartphone market, unseating Apple and blowing MS out of the water using an OS primarily built out of FOSS software from multiple sources. Now that google are securely rooted into the the market, they can, well... just write their own OS and do as they please. None of the billions of unknowing "Linux users" running Android will care either way.
 
Old 11-27-2018, 09:20 AM   #2963
YesItsMe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cynwulf View Post
As I understand it, it's a microkernel based OS?
Yup. And it finally gets rid of that hideous Java thing, supporting Rust, Dart and even Apple's Swift since 2017. Anyway, this is probably the most important single statement ever made on LQ:

Quote:
Originally Posted by cynwulf View Post
there was never any need to try to reinvent MS Windows
(Made slightly easier to find for later reference.)
 
Old 11-27-2018, 08:59 PM   #2964
jsbjsb001
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Originally Posted by YesItsMe View Post
Neither do I - but I heard that macOS is much more awesome to use with an iPhone than both Windows and Linux. Well, no wonders here, I guess.
Without using the system myself, it's hard for me to offer any comments.

Quote:
...
So if Windows works for most people, why are some other people (including a few on LQ) still trying to force-feed them Linux?
But nobody is trying to "force-feed" anyone, and by that logic I could say the same about any number of other systems, like Windows, MacOS, etc. Do you want me to go on?

Quote:
Oh, come on. Please finally stop using dollar signs to indicate commercial companies. No Linux developer can live off voluntary donations either.
I'm sure like where I live, IOU's ain't money anymore than it is where you are. So yes, everyone needs money to live. But a lot of Linux developers have other jobs and do development on their own time and not for profit.

Quote:
Linux is Linus Torvalds's copyrighted and trademarked property. The GPL makes everything you modify in it his property as well. You are effectively "renting" the right to use and distribute Linux.
But this is untrue. Linus trademarked the name "Linux" to protect it, so he didn't have possibly change it's name later on, when someone else decided to use it - particularly if they got in first to trademark the name. You also cannot compare the GPL with the Windows EULA, there's no way - they are totally different licenses, period.

Quote:
TL;DR: Google found that Linux sucks so bad that they decided to write a new Android from scratch, at least that's what it currently looks like.
It looks to me like it's far more of a case of what cynwulf was talking about before. And once again, if Linux "sucks" so much... why would anyone like Google even bother with it in the first place? Have they bothered with Windows Phone OS, even if they could? No, they haven't anymore than a number of other places have.

@hazel, "legacy", perfect word, nailed it. Well said. Agree totally.
 
Old 11-28-2018, 03:49 AM   #2965
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jsbjsb001 View Post
You also cannot compare the GPL with the Windows EULA, there's no way - they are totally different licenses, period.
Both are very similar in terms of "you must not"s.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jsbjsb001 View Post
why would anyone like Google even bother with it in the first place?
See, the point is that they have enough experience with it and they still want to replace it, especially the kernel.
 
Old 11-28-2018, 07:00 AM   #2966
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YesItsMe View Post
See, the point is that they have enough experience with it and they still want to replace it, especially the kernel.
I think it's rather disingenuous to state that google inc are replacing the Linux kernel because, to use your words, it "sucks so bad".

From all appearances this is definitely all about going their own way, doing their own thing and of course GPL avoidance. And that means removing the layers which are there due to GPL avoidance and which add complexity and bring their own problems.

And for those that missed it, the latter is nothing new: https://image.slidesharecdn.com/andr...ion-33-638.jpg

https://web.archive.org/web/20160408...an-Android.pdf

(Archived original.)

Relevant quotes:
Quote:
License: we want to keep GPL out of user-space
And of course bionic libc is 3 clause BSD licenced.
Quote:
Kernel drivers are GPL which exposes any proprietary IP
(HAL)

So in my view, google would probably carry on using Linux and adapt it to their needs if it weren't for the licence. Linux has been a means to an end.

They could have used a modified NetBSD or FreeBSD kernel from day one and avoided all of this in the first place, they must have had compelling technical reasons for not doing so (perhaps lacking architecture/hardware support at the time? I'm not sure...). But it's also worth considering that google bought Android once it was already in development.

With the GPL out of the way, the bits which need to be proprietary can now be proprietary, while still taking advantage of the free/cheap labour of FOSS developers where needed.

Last edited by cynwulf; 11-28-2018 at 07:06 AM.
 
Old 12-05-2018, 12:46 PM   #2967
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Ha!

A while ago, I registered a domain to annoy the hell out of people.

Turns out, it works!
 
Old 12-05-2018, 01:17 PM   #2968
ondoho
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YesItsMe View Post
A while ago, I registered a domain to annoy the hell out of people.

Turns out, it works!
be proud that you managed to get an 11-year old to make an outrage video about your site. it must be a turning point in your life, and i totally understand your need to post about it.

*slow clap*
 
Old 12-05-2018, 01:23 PM   #2969
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It seems that Linux is only defended by an 11-year-old.
Now we're at the topic again.
 
Old 12-05-2018, 01:31 PM   #2970
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YesItsMe View Post
Ha!

A while ago, I registered a domain to annoy the hell out of people.

Turns out, it works!
Hopefully my adblocking software will not get you the clicks you want for that. Either way I will never click a link you post and will report you whenever you do.
I have to admit I have no idea what, beyond a childish link, the domain linked to points but unless I see evidence to the contrary it is clickbait.
 
  


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