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Old 06-04-2015, 09:08 AM   #31
enorbet
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To avoid going totally OT I will just point out that an investigation did occur involving many 3rd party experts who not only conclude that the specifics of the buildings and planes did indeed cause all the destruction and also found evidence that rules out demolition, as it too was considered. It is a complex situation perhaps even more complex than the JFK assassination and both seem to defy real closure. It seems to me the best we can do as thinking individuals is to consider such complex events especially when conspiracy theories are advanced, as to the likelihood that such a conspiracy involving so many people can actually be achieved. There are still to this day those that deny that Man has ever walked on the moon despite all the evidence that it was real, including the placement of laser reflectors that anyone can apply to employ. Of all the variables the human variable is perhaps the greatest and it commonly brings conspiracies either to light or a fizzle fail.

I don't expect that the pilots nor the designers of the plot actually hoped for complete collapse. It would have been enough just to hit the buildings, burst into flame, and kill a few hundred people. For them I suppose it was just happy coincidence. It doesn't matter that a bomber hit the Empire State building as it is a completely different sort of construction. The WTC buildings were also tested but one can't test against all contingencies. Just ask several thousand Pinto owners and the Ford company... or for that matter ALL auto manufacturers....Hell!... ALL manufacturers.

TLDR version - The conspiracy component always should cast doubt on extreme conclusions.
 
Old 06-04-2015, 09:39 AM   #32
enorbet
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Myk267 View Post
This sure smells like the Parable of the Broken Window.
While I see some application of that parable, it begins with the window breaking and with no regard as to how it was broken since it is a sort of thought experiment avoiding getting too detailed. I could ask where is the window located? Is it particularly vulnerable to breakage? Would reinforcing or armoring the glass have prevented that sort of breakage? and on and on.

In the case of War fortunately it is far simpler. War isn't some natural occurrence that just happens, it is a choice that is made when the need exceeds the perceived risk, or when all other options are closed. These "needs" are primarily economic - wealth, "haves" and "have nots". This is certainly exacerbated by the existence of government that has the power to declare war without obstacle, but still the reasons for starting one, for invading, are generally economic.

These days computer modeling is used to analyze cost/benefit to try to determine the most efficient way(s) to improve global civilization. Most runs show that economic stimulus to "bring up the bottom" has the most far-reaching positive effects. Old school warfare is not efficient any longer as many are discovering how the speed of the Information Age has thwarted their efforts in many different, and effective, ways. We can even argue that it never was efficient. We could cite how many enemy cities surrendered without a blow to the Roman Army because they knew they would prosper once roads, baths, fountains. etc etc were brought to that city. But that is merely academic at this point and in this thread when we are talking about predicting the likelihood of a new, global war.

It seems to me the deterrence of MADD still exists. It would be foolish to choose an all fronts confrontation, creating a specific target. It is far safer to confine aggressions to smaller conflicts. Even children recognize that it would be foolhardy to knock their parents unconscious to steal a cookie. It would also be foolish to steal ALL the cookies in the jar.

I conclude that barring true insanity, not merely the painting of one's enemy as monsters, a worldwide conflict is unlikely at least in terms of violent conflict. I recall that while the Cold War felt like missiles could fall at anytime, in reality the war was won and lost by economics. Therefore it seems to me that regardless of if it can be viewed as negative or positive change by different parties, economics is the battlefield of the future, both locally and globally.
 
Old 06-04-2015, 11:15 AM   #33
Myk267
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet View Post
While I see some application of that parable, it begins with the window breaking and with no regard as to how it was broken since it is a sort of thought experiment avoiding getting too detailed. I could ask where is the window located? Is it particularly vulnerable to breakage? Would reinforcing or armoring the glass have prevented that sort of breakage? and on and on.
The application of the parable seems to have missed it's mark. My bad.
 
Old 06-04-2015, 08:27 PM   #34
jefro
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A WW2 bomber, nearly fuel empty, maybe @175MPH, hit an overly well constructed Empire Building. That building was not designed by computers. The designers of that building put more metal in. Way more than was needed to hold the building because they didn't have advanced tools to safely reduce the amount.

A modern jetliner, 5 times the mass, 10 times the fuel hits a poorly constructed building. The designers used what was then a basically untested fireproofing. They used computers to reduce steel to the very minimum that would be needed to stop a WW2 empty bomber. Jet hits building at 400+ MPH.

Cheap modern building fell down because the fireproofing was not up to today's standard, the steel was not rated for that much fuel, the water suppression ran dry, the design of the building was an external exoskeleton. The interior fell into it's self.

The cheap modern buildings did survive a massive blast in the parking area prior. It's area was strong enough based on computer models of loads and potential fuel in that area.

Not rocket science. The fact that computers are used for both good and bad outcomes.

Last edited by jefro; 06-04-2015 at 08:30 PM.
 
Old 06-05-2015, 01:03 AM   #35
Jeebizz
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Bombs away.....

If WWIII were to begin, I would say with most certainty that it would not last long. Conventional warfare is considered so last century, sure the US is still fighting conventional wars, but if there were ever a war with opposing superpowers all bets are off. ICBMs would be the first to be sent out, which makes sense anyways, why waste your resources and the lives of your own when a first nuclear strike can do a lot more, that is if you can strike hard and fast enough the other side is not able or barely able to retaliate.

As strange as this sounds, I'm not concerned or worried at all. Why should I be? What would be the point? If it happens, then it happens -- Yea, very optimistic sounding huh? But lets be honest or I will at least, when faced with the only two possible outcomes - 'survive' the aftermath and pretty much face the rest of your days in agony due to radiation, if I am not killed off instantly but were not able to get to a shelter in time, dying slowly and painfully is not my idea of 'surviving' or being faced with long term effects that probably would cause a much earlier and still painful death, or being hold up in a hole eating canned foods, also worrying about further chaos from other survivors. The other, being close enough to be instantly vaporized, well shit I choose the latter. Selfish? Cowardly? Think of that what you will, but I find that better than surviving to deal with even more horrors - post nuclear WWIII. I'm stating the obvious though since nuclear weapons are clearly to be feared

I will remember though to "duck-and-cover" when I do see the flash, after all I'm sure THAT will maybe buy me some time eh? That is if I'm not already engulfed in flames instantly, or again hopefully instantly vaporized... Lewis Black seems to also have a very opinionated view about this too

Of course this could just be another 'almost' WWIII since there have been incidents that nearly caused a third world war so many times already. If it really were to happen, I just hope it is not caused by something 'accidental' i.e - faulty computer chips, or human error, or other 'oops' situations.

Although on a more serious note, there are some possible causes of WWIII

But I still would like to leave on a more lighter note,
 
Old 06-05-2015, 12:41 PM   #36
sundialsvcs
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Enorbet, et al, let's just "park" this as OT to the relevant thread. I don't believe for one New York minute that "the tallest buildings in the world at that time" were ever built to collapse ("in six seconds," "in free fall") if they ever were hit by an airplane. Because, let's face it, if there is one thing that you would design "the tallest buildings in the world" for, it would be: "to be hit by an airplane." And, even if something did happen "80 stories up," anything that fell from that height would have bounced-off roughly 75 stories' worth of stuff that would not have collapsed like so many dominoes. The effect that apparently started to start-happening when the upper segments of WTC1 started to fall ... "it didn't start to fall 'straight down into the parking lot'" would have continued.

Nope: this kind of demo job would ordinarily be a career-defining moment that would have every organization on Planet Earth waiting in line for you to handle their next job.

And that's what makes me so scared, frankly. "Warships? Battle groups? Fighters? How 20th Century ..." (Actually, "mostly 18th and 19th ...")
 
Old 06-05-2015, 01:40 PM   #37
dugan
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EDIT....

Said something I shouldn't have and didn't actually mean.

Last edited by dugan; 06-05-2015 at 01:58 PM.
 
Old 12-31-2016, 08:33 PM   #38
Jeebizz
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Sorry but I feel I need to resurrect this thread.

Political assassination is now OK.
Hey, I don't know of any incidents at all that caused a major war due to an assassination right? Anyone ever known for that to ever happen before?

Censorship on overdrive - gotta keep everyone blind until it is too late.

John Kerry says: "Problem is young people don't want to go off and die in wars anymore..."

Last edited by Jeebizz; 12-31-2016 at 08:34 PM.
 
Old 01-01-2017, 12:04 AM   #39
floppywhopper
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John Kerry says: "Problem is young people don't want to go off and die in wars anymore..."



“Why, of course, the people don’t want war. Why would some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best that he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece. Naturally, the common people don’t want war; neither in Russia nor in England nor in America, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy or a fascist dictatorship or a Parliament or a Communist dictatorship…

Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country.”

– Hermann Goering (as told to Gustav Gilbert during the Nuremberg trials)
 
Old 01-01-2017, 12:44 AM   #40
Jeebizz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by floppywhopper View Post
John Kerry says: "Problem is young people don't want to go off and die in wars anymore..."



“Why, of course, the people don’t want war. Why would some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best that he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece. Naturally, the common people don’t want war; neither in Russia nor in England nor in America, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy or a fascist dictatorship or a Parliament or a Communist dictatorship…

Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country.”

– Hermann Goering (as told to Gustav Gilbert during the Nuremberg trials)
Except that kind of tactic cannot work in this case, because of the long running military 'excursions' since early 2000s. If it were peacetime it would be different, but not in this case, even the average slob has now wised up - even he realises 'why should I or my son, go out and die in a foreign country just so that a company can make an extra cool million/billion in weapons sales.?'

Sure, they can re-introduce the draft (conscription) - but how many are they going to be able to 'forcibly' volunteer out of that? Something will have to give - and given that the US populace is so engrossed in arms - it is likely it could just backfire and even the armed forces would be forced to choose sides then and there.

Last edited by Jeebizz; 01-01-2017 at 12:59 AM.
 
Old 01-01-2017, 08:36 PM   #41
sundialsvcs
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"War" has disappeared from the (American) public view. It has disappeared completely ... uhh, except for vague references to gruesomely disfigured soldiers and to post-traumatic disorders. The planeloads of coffins that have been coming back for over fifteen years do not get any coverage whatsoever in the news downloads from the US Propaganda Ministry. There are no links between the trillions(!) of dollars that we have spent, on a completely un-declared war that so far has lasted almost four times longer than WW2, and the devastation of the American economy.

War has become a business, precisely as Gen. Dwight D. Eisenhower predicted.
 
Old 01-03-2017, 01:32 AM   #42
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Destruction is against maintaining a prosperous economy.

Lack of respect and violence is the root of war.

Education is the only way to avoid war.
 
Old 01-03-2017, 04:57 AM   #43
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You learn that in kindergarten, not necessarily at two! !! !!!
 
Old 01-03-2017, 07:54 AM   #44
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No, war originates from exactly one thing: "the Spoils of War."

For instance: why did the United States really invade Afghanistan, and why is it determined to stay there indefinitely? Three reasons:
  1. Petroleum. (Specifically, a pipeline to reach the Caspian Sea without passing through Russian territory.)
  2. Opium.
  3. Lithium.

It actually has nothing to do with a "War on Terror," although it certainly has triggered very-effective resistance fighting among the people whose lands have been invaded by the West.

Whereas the British Empire created a market for their lucrative opium trade by creating addicts among the Chinese, the United States turned to its children. Suddenly, every kid that squirmed in school had "ADD = Attention-Deficit Disorder," and s/he was prescribed "zombie drugs" ... made from opium. Just the other day at a restaurant I watched as a young girl suddenly went face-forward on the table. Her friends talked around her as though nothing unusual had happened, and a few minutes later she woke up and resumed talking. We have no idea what these drugs do to developing brains. But they sure did sell a lot of Afghan opium.
 
Old 01-03-2017, 05:00 PM   #45
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ww3 ??? NO

but maybe a NEW revolution here in the states
with the towns folk carrying torches and pitchforks storming the castle( wash.DC.) to toss out the EVIL baron
-- the us constitution dose allow for the ultimate check and balance
 
  


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