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Old 08-18-2020, 07:54 AM   #1
hazel
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A problem for French policemen


For some time now, it has been illegal for women to wear the niqab (the Muslim modesty covering for the lower face) in public in France. This is because France prides itself on being a secular country.

Now, because of covid-19, it is illegal for French people to go out in the street without a face covering to prevent cross-infection.

Obviously anyone wearing one of those blue surgical masks will be keeping the law, but what happens if a woman, especially one wearing a hijab, also wears a cloth over her mouth and nose? Are the police going to arrest her for wearing a niqab? And if she takes it off to avoid arrest, will they then arrest her for not wearing a face covering?

Last edited by hazel; 08-18-2020 at 08:42 AM.
 
Old 08-18-2020, 08:39 AM   #2
HappyTux
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It is a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma; but perhaps there is a key.
 
Old 08-18-2020, 09:30 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hazel View Post
....This is because France prides itself on being a secular country.....
Really?

I admit I haven't paid much attention to the changes in France in recent years, but when I lived there it was profoundly religious with the vast majority of the population being Catholic.
OTOH, things change. The North African immigrants have had an affect.

Last edited by cwizardone; 08-18-2020 at 09:34 AM.
 
Old 08-18-2020, 09:41 AM   #4
hazel
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The French people may be profoundly religious, but the French state has always been very much concerned to keep religion out of the public sphere. This is regarded as part of their revolutionary inheritance.
 
Old 08-18-2020, 12:23 PM   #5
KGIII
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hazel View Post
The French people may be profoundly religious, but the French state has always been very much concerned to keep religion out of the public sphere. This is regarded as part of their revolutionary inheritance.
Indeed. During the French Revolution period, counting into the years after the initial revolt, they *really* swung the pendulum in the opposite direction. They even changed their calendar in an effort to 'de-Christianize' the country.
 
Old 08-19-2020, 03:40 PM   #6
rokytnji
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Well. If they act like Texas law enforcement.

The wound up too tight ones will have conniption fits

The ones who consider it too much paper work will ignore the conundrum.
 
Old 08-19-2020, 03:45 PM   #7
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Never thought about that Hazel, that's a good observation.
 
Old 08-30-2020, 07:13 PM   #8
jlliagre
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hazel View Post
For some time now, it has been illegal for women to wear the niqab (the Muslim modesty covering for the lower face) in public in France.
Wearing the burqa and the niqab is forbidden in public spaces in France. Note that the niqab is not just covering the lower part of the face, but the upper too, leaving only a small slit for the eyes.

Quote:
This is because France prides itself on being a secular country.
That's not how the law is written so I wouldn't say France prides itself about it (in that specific case at least). The law states hiding his/her face in the street or public premises is forbidden, regardless of what is used to hide the face, a burqa, a niqab sure, but a balaclava, a helmet or a helmet too. There is absolutely no mention about religion in that law. Hopefully, there are many exceptions so it is not forbidden to wear a helmet when riding a motorcycle, a mask during Carnival or an artistic event, a job related protecting mask, a mask prescribed for medical reasons, and the latter includes all covid-19 related masks.

Quote:
Now, because of covid-19, it is illegal for French people to go out in the street without a face covering to prevent cross-infection.
Yes, at the moment only in some cities/areas but the number of places is growing.

Quote:
Obviously anyone wearing one of those blue surgical masks will be keeping the law, but what happens if a woman, especially one wearing a hijab, also wears a cloth over her mouth and nose? Are the police going to arrest her for wearing a niqab? And if she takes it off to avoid arrest, will they then arrest her for not wearing a face covering?
A woman wearing a hijab would have no problem related to it because the hijab doesn't hide the face. It just hides the hairs, the ears and the neck. She would need to wear a mask if she is in a place where it is mandatory but wearing a veil covering her nose and her mouth would certainly be accepted by the police.

On the other hand, a woman fully hiding her face with a niqab or a burqa faces the risk to be fined (€22 or €35). I believe there are very few actual fines nowadays, the police having other priorities. If a woman wearing a niqab removes it, then she would have to wear a regular mask to avoid the risk to be fined too, and that time the fine is €135, so probably better for her to keep the niqab if she has no mask...

Last edited by jlliagre; 08-30-2020 at 07:34 PM.
 
Old 08-31-2020, 04:28 PM   #9
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We have the same in The Netherlands. There has been a lot of debate about this law, as you can imagine. You can wear the clothes that you want, however the niqab and burqa are generally seen as oppressive to women and hindering open communication in our open society, as are other types of face coverings like a balaclava or a face covering helmet (and yes, there were people actually wearing them when shopping in a supermarket). You can read information about the Dutch law in English on the Dutch government website.

I don't really can put a figure on it however I feel that the number of people wearing religious clothing is declining somewhat. But maybe that's because I in a place where the immigrant population has assimilated better into the population as a whole than in some other parts.

An emerging problem however is that gay people are now under threat by islamic youth. Men and women are afraid to walk the streets with their same sex partner as there have been quite some severe incidents were they were assaulted. And jewish businesses are getting harrassed as well.

In turn, this behaviour is driving political polarization; while two decades ago there was just one far-right party that was something of a side show, there are now to far-right parties that are getting mainstream attention because they do attract quite some voters while left-wing antifa extremists are getting traction too through appropriating BLM (while the equal appreciation of each and every human should and can only be non-political) and their anti-zionist stance.

A hot summer and a pinch of COVID-19 irritation completes the 2020 public cocktail. Reminds me of Spike Lee's "Do the right thing"
 
Old 08-31-2020, 06:27 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cwizardone View Post
Really?

I admit I haven't paid much attention to the changes in France in recent years, but when I lived there it was profoundly religious with the vast majority of the population being Catholic.
That was probably a very long time ago.

France is no more a "profoundly religious" country. It is actually among the less religious countries in Europe, and according to this study, France is the European country where the number of convinced atheist is the largest, by far.
 
Old 08-31-2020, 11:37 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jlliagre View Post
That was probably a very long time ago.

France is no more a "profoundly religious" country. It is actually among the less religious countries in Europe, and according to this study, France is the European country where the number of convinced atheist is the largest, by far.
I've heard things have changed, and, unfortunately, not for the better. Entire neighborhoods have been trashed, etc.
 
Old 09-01-2020, 12:00 AM   #12
ondoho
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jlliagre, thanks for your insightful comments.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hermani View Post
the niqab and burqa are generally seen as oppressive to women and hindering open communication in our open society
I tend to agree; but the text of this law does not say that, I guess? What exactly do you mean by "generally seen"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by cwizardone View Post
I've heard things have changed, and, unfortunately, not for the better. Entire neighborhoods have been trashed, etc.
Sounds like the sort of propaganda the Soviet Union used to spread about America & all Western countries.
Only this time reversed, and not initiated by any government, just by an amorphous body of devout consumers.
There's one fundamental truth about these sort of statements: people tend to fear what they don't know.
 
Old 09-01-2020, 07:04 AM   #13
Hermani
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ondoho View Post
jlliagre, thanks for your insightful comments.


I tend to agree; but the text of this law does not say that, I guess? What exactly do you mean by "generally seen"?
With "generally seen" I meant that parties all over the political spectrum people tend to have this point of view. Of course, there will always be people that think otherwise.

Last edited by Hermani; 09-01-2020 at 07:06 AM.
 
Old 09-01-2020, 07:45 AM   #14
cwizardone
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ondoho View Post
.....Sounds like the sort of propaganda the Soviet Union used to spread about America & all Western countries.
Only this time reversed, and not initiated by any government, just by an amorphous body of devout consumers.
There's one fundamental truth about these sort of statements: people tend to fear what they don't know.
Oh, bollocks!
I've seen photos of what has happened to Paris and other French cities in the time since I lived there,
and the photos of Paris were taken by someone I use to work with when I lived there. That is to say,
they represent modern fact, not fiction. One use to be able walk just about anywhere in Paris at anytime of the night. Not anymore.
 
Old 09-01-2020, 12:47 PM   #15
Hermani
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cwizardone View Post
That is to say, they represent modern fact, not fiction. One use to be able walk just about anywhere in Paris at anytime of the night. Not anymore.
+1

Have been living in Amsterdam in such a "no-go" area between 2000 and 2007. Two out of three most wanted islamic Dutch terrorists at the time lived in the same area. Most people over there had a Moroccan background. Now I don't like to generalize, however there were a LOT of people treating my family and the whole area like trash. When visiting Paris, you can see the same over there.

I used to actually like people that took their future into their own hands and moved to a different country to work and live there in order to get a better future. This quickly went away. I only realised this after moving to a different part of the country: it really took some time for me to be able to appreciate and openly communicate with people from any background again.

This has little to do with ethnicity or cultural background but this is plain bad behaviour: even a lot of people from the same background are complaining. And it is not like the cities aren't pumping money into these areas. But alas, just last week a brand new community house was burnt down even before it was opened... this is the reality..

Last edited by Hermani; 09-01-2020 at 12:50 PM.
 
  


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