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Old 05-13-2022, 04:19 PM   #91
rkelsen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mjolnir View Post
Paraphrasing Yamamoto's allegorical/mythical phrase concerning the U.S. - "You prod the 'sleeping giant'" at your own peril!
Those words were said more than 80 years ago. The generation of Americans he was talking about is long gone.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mjolnir View Post
So 'lessor' powers can quake at Chinese influence in the S. Pacific or Africa but no one should doubt that the U.S. is the apex predator when it comes to 'superpowers'
I'm sure someone somewhere said a similar thing about the Romans.

Political instability is the biggest problem in America right now. It needs to be fixed. Ignoring it is not the right answer.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mjolnir View Post
Speaking of which, Finland seems poised to add it's Nordic expertise to NATO along it's 800+ mile long border with Russia.
That's a good thing. It would also be good if NATO could also admit Ukraine as a member.

Last edited by rkelsen; 05-13-2022 at 04:22 PM.
 
Old 05-13-2022, 04:32 PM   #92
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NATO is no longer the "defensive alliance" that it still claims to be. Today, its recent and proposed members now contain one universal geographical characteristic: they are adjacent to the border of Russia, and they will be used to construct military bases just a few miles from its borders that are all armed to the teeth. This is a "slow-motion chess game" which seeks to strategically position offensive forces in preparation for a new European ("World ...") War which will specifically target Russia.

There is no legitimate enemy that these countries now need to "align themselves against." The USSR ceased to exist many decades ago. "Defense" is no longer their true goal. They are arranging things so that Russia will face simultaneous hostile attacks from essentially all of Europe.

Last edited by sundialsvcs; 05-13-2022 at 04:34 PM.
 
Old 05-13-2022, 04:39 PM   #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rkelsen View Post
Those words were said more than 80 years ago. The generation of Americans he was talking about is long gone.
Yes, the 'Greatest Generation', of whom my Dad was a member, is almost gone. That said the computer aided weapons systems and sheer bulk of logistical support available today would be unfathomable to the Allies of yesteryear.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rkelsen View Post
I'm sure someone somewhere said a similar thing about the Romans. ...
Imperial Rome lasted almost 500 years. The U.S. is only nearing the half-way mark. I'll let you know in another 250 years.
 
Old 05-13-2022, 05:26 PM   #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sundialsvcs View Post
NATO is no longer the "defensive alliance" that it still claims to be. Today, its recent and proposed members now contain one universal geographical characteristic: they are adjacent to the border of Russia, and they will be used to construct military bases just a few miles from its borders that are all armed to the teeth. This is a "slow-motion chess game" which seeks to strategically position offensive forces in preparation for a new European ("World ...") War which will specifically target Russia.

There is no legitimate enemy that these countries now need to "align themselves against." The USSR ceased to exist many decades ago. "Defense" is no longer their true goal. They are arranging things so that Russia will face simultaneous hostile attacks from essentially all of Europe.
If there were no enemy NATO need be aligned against, then Russia did not invade Ukraine and we are all dreaming a war. Sorry, that does not pass the fact test.
Most of Russia's neighbors have been trading with them, doing regular business with them, and having normal diplomatic relations with them until Russia (Putin actually) started threatening them. Russia had a treaty with Ukraine that they broke in 2014 when they invaded. Clearly treaties and agreements with Russia are not enough to protect neighbors from invasion! Somethign else is needed, and the NATO agreement seems to work.
 
Old 05-13-2022, 05:37 PM   #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sundialsvcs View Post
NATO is no longer the "defensive alliance" that it still claims to be. Today, its recent and proposed members now contain one universal geographical characteristic: they are adjacent to the border of Russia, and they will be used to construct military bases just a few miles from its borders that are all armed to the teeth. This is a "slow-motion chess game" which seeks to strategically position offensive forces in preparation for a new European ("World ...") War which will specifically target Russia.

There is no legitimate enemy that these countries now need to "align themselves against." The USSR ceased to exist many decades ago. "Defense" is no longer their true goal. They are arranging things so that Russia will face simultaneous hostile attacks from essentially all of Europe.
Lots to unpack here. But I need to ask this...

I'm aware that your LQ account has (or had) the same name as your business. Is "sundialsvcs" still a business account, or is it strictly personal now? I mean, you have certainly posted a lot of stuff that most people wouldn't post under a business account.

Last edited by dugan; 05-13-2022 at 08:31 PM.
 
Old 05-14-2022, 01:34 AM   #96
ondoho
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wpeckham View Post
Most of Russia's neighbors have been trading with them, doing regular business with them, and having normal diplomatic relations with them until Russia (Putin actually) started threatening them.
This cannot be stressed enough.

Now so many people come up with a different narrative - many of whom didn't even know there was a narrative until Feb, 24.
Some of them are even blaming those countries that used to have good (economic) realations with Russia.

Ultimately, it comes down to this: only people familiar with the European (historical) POV can fully understand the scope of this conflict.
 
Old 05-14-2022, 06:23 AM   #97
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"The bots are angry at being counted ��" https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1525305145239781377
 
Old 05-14-2022, 08:16 AM   #98
sundialsvcs
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I personally don't think that my frank comments about NATO should be taken as "controversial." The North Atlantic Treaty Organization came to be when the USSR was perceived as a threat to Europe which needed to be countered with solidarity. But eighty years or so have passed since then, and that's enough time for a lot of things to have changed. Their official enemy officially no longer exists. Its self-sufficient successor now provides energy and groceries to most of its erstwhile "enemies," and insists to be paid in rubles.

I observe that NATO is now actively soliciting members, and that every one of them have a common geographic characteristic: "they border Russia." All right then, I find that to be very suspicious. I see military bases being constructed in the new member nations, not close to the city centers which might logically need to be protected, but within mere miles of the Russian border and sometimes a long distance from anywhere else. Why?

I know that Europe has a very long experience with what became "world" wars, and I think that I see preparations for the same things happening again. The original objectives of NATO now being largely irrelevant, I see the organization now being used as a foil to deflect attention and recognition away from what I now perceive to be happening: a thing that is not good. It gives me no pleasure to say that someone out there is now preparing for [world] war.

I think that it is especially important that we "keep our eyes wide open" when someone else assures us that there is nothing there to see.

Last edited by sundialsvcs; 05-14-2022 at 08:21 AM.
 
Old 05-14-2022, 12:28 PM   #99
dugan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ondoho View Post
This cannot be stressed enough.

Now so many people come up with a different narrative - many of whom didn't even know there was a narrative until Feb, 24.
Some of them are even blaming those countries that used to have good (economic) realations with Russia.

Ultimately, it comes down to this: only people familiar with the European (historical) POV can fully understand the scope of this conflict.
What do you mean "now"? I had deja vu when I saw Sundial's post because Jeebizz used to post the exact same things. Using pretty much the same words. I know you were there for that.

Last edited by dugan; 05-14-2022 at 12:32 PM.
 
Old 05-14-2022, 02:58 PM   #100
wpeckham
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sundialsvcs View Post
I personally don't think that my frank comments about NATO should be taken as "controversial." The North Atlantic Treaty Organization came to be when the USSR was perceived as a threat to Europe which needed to be countered with solidarity. But eighty years or so have passed since then, and that's enough time for a lot of things to have changed. Their official enemy officially no longer exists. Its self-sufficient successor now provides energy and groceries to most of its erstwhile "enemies," and insists to be paid in rubles.

I observe that NATO is now actively soliciting members, and that every one of them have a common geographic characteristic: "they border Russia." All right then, I find that to be very suspicious. I see military bases being constructed in the new member nations, not close to the city centers which might logically need to be protected, but within mere miles of the Russian border and sometimes a long distance from anywhere else. Why?

I know that Europe has a very long experience with what became "world" wars, and I think that I see preparations for the same things happening again. The original objectives of NATO now being largely irrelevant, I see the organization now being used as a foil to deflect attention and recognition away from what I now perceive to be happening: a thing that is not good. It gives me no pleasure to say that someone out there is now preparing for [world] war.

I think that it is especially important that we "keep our eyes wide open" when someone else assures us that there is nothing there to see.
I do not think them controversial at all, I think them false! When Ukraine applied for NATO membership, it was turned down. If NATO had been actively recruiting, that would not have happened.
 
Old 05-14-2022, 03:04 PM   #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wpeckham View Post
I do not think them controversial at all, I think them false! When Ukraine applied for NATO membership, it was turned down. If NATO had been actively recruiting, that would not have happened.
Whether NATO was actively recruiting or not, it could not have accepted Ukraine as a member once Putin had annexed Crimea. NATO rules explicitly prohibit the accession of new members who have any kind of territorial dispute with a neighbour. The reason is obvious. NATO members are committed to come to one another's aid in case of invasion and it is potentially suicidal to take on that committment for a country which is already effectively at war.

That's why Putin's position is so flagrantly dishonest. He knows perfectly well that the annexation of Crimea would prevent Ukraine ever becoming a NATO member so he was under no threat at all from NATO expansion in that region.
 
Old 05-14-2022, 03:11 PM   #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hazel View Post
Whether NATO was actively recruiting or not, it could not have accepted Ukraine as a member once Putin had annexed Crimea. NATO rules explicitly prohibit the accession of new members who have any kind of territorial dispute with a neighbour. The reason is obvious. NATO members are committed to come to one another's aid in case of invasion and it is potentially suicidal to take on that committment for a country which is already effectively at war.

That's why Putin's position is so flagrantly dishonest. He knows perfectly well that the annexation of Crimea would prevent Ukraine ever becoming a NATO member so he was under no threat at all from NATO expansion in that region.
Ukraine first applied for membership in 2008, and had a NATO relationship since 1992.
 
Old 05-14-2022, 03:51 PM   #103
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^ Thank you yet another time for putting in some level-headed factual information.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dugan View Post
What do you mean "now"? I had deja vu when I saw Sundial's post because Jeebizz used to post the exact same things. Using pretty much the same words. I know you were there for that.
Sorry, I don't know what you're refering to.

The last week of February, I was discussing the invasion etc. a lot online, and I could literally watch how it took a few days/weeks before USA got involved as a "big player" - both its government, its people, and its ... Tucker Carlsons.
I never had the feeling there was a need for that, but it was inevitable I guess (not least because Putin wants it so).
 
Old 05-15-2022, 06:19 AM   #104
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Old 05-15-2022, 06:45 AM   #105
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Wonder when the full staff replacement will roll out?

Americans will probably be the first to go, as he really don't rate them that high... the chinese on the other hand: greatest workers!

https://www.theguardian.com/technolo...e-work-culture
 
  


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